RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Starless]

higher than any pup weapon

RDMs and WHMs have weapon skills higher than A-? Well, I just learn something new every day!

It's an idea I've seen paraded around a bit(and thrown about myself), but maybe it's high time S-E introduce new TP gain methods. So far, unless you're SAM, TP only comes from giving or receiving damage. TP modes set to award jobs for Enfeebles landed, or nukes landed, or HP/MP healed, attacks evaded... etc.

I remember proposing that's how they might make BLU mages back before AU came out. It still sounds like a good idea if you ask me. Although I'm sure it would take months of testing it out and even then there'd be a few ways to abuse it in the first few days/weeks after it was implemented. (But hey, that's what makes this game fun, right?)

[Sunrider]

Well, I didn't think the Weapon Skills would have to be changed at all; a backliner might gain his TP at a distance, but maybe run up, perform the Weapon Skill(or Skill Chain), and run back, rinse, repeat.

And yeah, I'd have no doubt it'd need serious testing, that's a given. And there's the question of how much TP would be awarded for what spells, and whether different tiers should get different TP(longer recasts could be equated to greater delay, after all), TP amounts awarded for evading attacks, blocking, summoning avatars, TP modes for pets, and so forth. It'd have to be modified since anyone could just /RDM and spam Dia to 100 TP, and even barring that, modifications would still be necessary to keep SAM on top of the TP gain trade.

[Charismatic]

If they do that... I hope they make the transition from '/a off' to '/a on' and vice versa much quicker and smoother.

Kill the animation lock SE.

[Gtype954]

Put a SPELL like meteor/esuna etc unlocked by the weapon instead of a stupid ws.

This.

Have meteor be a spell that can be used with the ultimate weapon, since it is the ultimate spell and the weapon should show that. It should be a little more MP then a ga III spell.

Esuna, give it somewhat of a long cast timer (maybe the same cast timer as stun) and have it completely erase every damn known status ailment in the game, except for Weakness.

Add refresh on all mage weapons. 1/tic refresh, and magic accuracy 20%, which is 5% higher then HQ staves, because this is the ultimate weapon and HQ staves should not have higher Macc. Magic potency 15%, and enhances Magic attack bonus job trait for blm.

for whm Cure potency +15% to make it higher then the light staff, and maybe enhances clear mind, to give it an extra clear mind job trait. then keep the stats as it is, perma divine veil etc. The accuracy on the weapon is for soloing situations and should still be on the weapon as SMNs and WHMs and RDMs do melee alot solo, but BLM I never see melee, not solo, not in campaign, not in beseiged, they never solo with their staff or even use it. I don't think I ever seen a blm use Full swing in my life or any other WS.
They like to sleep bind mobs, and can't use en-spells like rdm can, no reason to add melee stats on a blm staff or to give them a WS unless it fully recovered your damn MP. (which would be broken anyway, just an example) Would be the only way you can get a blm to WS.

These weapons need to completely own the HQ staves. Get rid of these staves once and for all, the staves broke the game, they are so good that ultimate weapons can't even keep up. I would have much preferred "enhances Magic attack bonus" then "enhances Elemental seal", or maybe even both considering alot of the other jobs got 2 JA or JT enhanced.

[Sunrider]

I think it's not necessary to replace Weapon Skills with spells for magical jobs, just apply modifiers those jobs can use.

Mystic Boon, Garland of Bliss, Vidohunir, Gates of Tartarus, etc... do away with this concept of Attack/Acc/STR/DEX modifiers, the jobs that use these Skills are deficient in those stats.

Modify those Weapon Skills with MAtk/MAcc/INT/MND. Make the damage magical. Give them something that plays to their strengths.

But then, replacing them with spells is good too.

[Charismatic]

If they do that... I hope they make the transition from '/a off' to '/a on' and vice versa much quicker and smoother.

Kill the animation lock SE.

Quoting myself because they need to do this anyway.
If Wolfgang can pull his sword out while running, why can't I?

[Ziero]

i didn't read the thread but if they want mages to melee, they have to make grips that have the same effects as staves. elemental staves are the only thing holding mages back from meleeing.

Because grips can be used with Hammers and Swords, m i rite?

(p.s. even if they did add those...which they sorta did...people would just use the grips WITH the staves...making mages lose another 8 inven slots...which they did)

Broken? nah... just give yourself 10% more acc when you only have 19 less skill than some DD at the expense of 78MP... totally fair.

No more broken then being able to give oneself 10-15% haste.

rdm sword: 19 less skill than axe wars, dagger thf, sword blus, rangers in general, not to mention thats a hgiher skill than any melee pup has, and only 6 less than dnc dagger

whm club: equal skill to dnc dagger again higher than any pup weapon and only 13 off axe wars, dagger thfs, and sword blus and rngs

Dnc actually has more acc then Thf as is due to it's two Acc bonus job traits.

Add refresh on all mage weapons. 1/tic refresh, and magic accuracy 20%, which is 5% higher then HQ staves, because this is the ultimate weapon and HQ staves should not have higher Macc. Magic potency 15%, and enhances Magic attack bonus job trait for blm.

Wasn't it rumored that the Mythics already give Refresh/Regen as hidden effects? If not then they definately should, along with the bonuses suggested.

Quoting myself because they need to do this anyway.

If Wolfgang can pull his sword out while running, why can't I?

Quoting this because it's the truth. When I'm running for my life because I'm losing a fight, that...5-10 second animation lock of me putting away my weapon cause I got too far from the mob usually kills me.

Edit: Also, on topic. Think most people are upset over the "Melee buff" to Whm not because it'll "push whm into being DDs" or anything, but rather the fact that it'll be a buff that won't help them where they need help the most. Whm need more support and mage abilities to help with MP conservation, regeneration and/or party enhancing abilities to compete with other mages for PT spots. Hell, Divine Veil in and of itself should be it's own JA at the very least. But instead of SE adjusting where Whm is hurting most, they're adding a superflous ability that at best will be used in situations where Whm can already melee and at worst will just be completely ignored. It's like putting a band aid on the arm when it's the leg that's bleeding.

[Headache]

for whm Cure potency +15% to make it higher then the light staff, and maybe enhances clear mind, to give it an extra clear mind job trait. then keep the stats as it is, perma divine veil etc. The accuracy on the weapon is for soloing situations and should still be on the weapon as SMNs and WHMs and RDMs do melee alot solo, but BLM I never see melee, not solo, not in campaign, not in beseiged, they never solo with their staff or even use it. I don't think I ever seen a blm use Full swing in my life or any other WS.
They like to sleep bind mobs, and can't use en-spells like rdm can, no reason to add melee stats on a blm staff or to give them a WS unless it fully recovered your damn MP. (which would be broken anyway, just an example) Would be the only way you can get a blm to WS.

Counterpoint. YouTube - Byakko BLM/NIN Tank

[Zathous]

RDMs and WHMs have weapon skills higher than A-? Well, I just learn something new every day!



I remember proposing that's how they might make BLU mages back before AU came out. It still sounds like a good idea if you ask me. Although I'm sure it would take months of testing it out and even then there'd be a few ways to abuse it in the first few days/weeks after it was implemented. (But hey, that's what makes this game fun, right?)

Allow me to direct you to BGWiki pup page:
Puppetmaster - BGWiki
H2H C rating
Dagger C- rating
Unless of course this website has been edited/written by baboons, in which case I am sorry for being misinformed, and I will edit my original post.

Note: I'm not talking about the Automaton, but the PUP player, so unless you believe a PUP should never melee due to low acc and blow ass weaponskill dmg, fact still stands that some mages do indeed have higher melee skill than jobs that are normally conceived to be melee.

Think of them like you would a mage now... PUP is assasited by a puppet... much as a mage is assisted by magic, and should not rely upon its (the players, not the pets) melee alone to do its job, much as a mage should never rely upon soley its melee to do its job, however it can be supplimental.

[evilpaul]

Maybe if we complain enough they will give up the whole front line mage idea, instead of listening to the morons asking for melee enhancement on rdm or other mage jobs. You want to be a melee mage? Go lvl blu it's exactly that, who cares if 6 years ago rdm was intended to be efficient in both physical and magical side, it turned out they are better as pure mage, like how ninja wasn't "supposed" to tank.

Maybe they could do an update so that Ninjas get melee or tank things?

[Ophannus]

I believe Temper was only for Red Mage/Wizard,Black Mage/Wizard and Ninja and Sabre was selfcast for Black Mage/Wizard only

[setzor]

>_> WHM/NIN is already pretty beasty when solo'ing stuff. Ever seen a WHM/NIN do Blackbeard or Silverhook ? Damn those clubs and their abysmal drop rates... ; ;

Heh, my wife got both those clubs on back to back boats, was pretty amazing.

Her whm/nin melee setup is pretty amazing, and our ls sometimes lets her come as "whinja" to events because they know her job isn't the most exciting most times.

Searobber/Seawulf, ohat, afgloves+1, reverandmail, blessed legs, rse feet(taru), str rings, chivalrous chain, boxer's mantle(no real whm melee backpiece..), life belt, can't remember the earrings she uses offhand. it's not like superomgwtf amazing, but it's not hella bad either, seen her pull off 1+k hexas on T's.

My personal opinion is that WHM was designed to be a backline support job, will always be a backline support job, and people leveling it, or have leveled it should know their role as a WHM, and if the job sucks for "modern day" fight strategies/meritparties/etc it's SE's fault for changing the way this game is played with the recent expansions. giving whm's a melee ability to restore mp sounds interesting, but on most HNM fights/some merit camps/etc it wouldn't even be feasible unless the whm had a short period of invincibility while they were doing their melee thing...heh...

[Izzy]

Searobber/Seawulf, ohat, afgloves+1, reverandmail, blessed legs, rse feet(taru), str rings, chivalrous chain, boxer's mantle(no real whm melee backpiece..), life belt, can't remember the earrings she uses offhand. it's not like superomgwtf amazing, but it's not hella bad either, seen her pull off 1+k hexas on T's.

I highlighted the gear your wife needs to change ASAP. This is why people are so closed off to WHM melee. They do it like that. Try this:

Mjollnir           Kraken            Blank                 Tiphia Sting
Walahra Turban     Prudence Torque   Suppanomimi           Merman's Earring (Brutal if not using Kraken)
Goliard Saio       Blessed Mitts +1  Snipers Ring +1       Snipers Ring +1
Bellicose Mantle   Swift Belt        Blessed Trousers +1   Blessed Pumps +1

If you don't have/can't afford Mjollnir/Kraken, use Perdu/Morgenstern or Perdu/Prudence Rod.

[setzor]

I highlighted the gear your wife needs to change ASAP. This is why people are so closed off to WHM melee. They do it like that.

the concept was accuracy to make up for lacking skill against T+, and the str/mnd build for hexa, with a little haste mixed in.

I know there's lots of room for improvement, but considering she melees on her whm like once a month for maybe an hour...(mostly cuz she'd rather be on blm).

I don't really see any point in pouring gil/time/etc into pimping out a melee whm :b

My original point was that, with even a shitty simple setup, whm can do some so-so numbers, but if it means my tank isn't going to get healed because the whm isn't /healing, or that we could lose our whm because they were trying to melee their mp back, than i'd rather win than lose.

[Not Kuno]

Note: I'm not talking about the Automaton, but the PUP player, so unless you believe a PUP should never melee due to low acc and blow ass weaponskill dmg, fact still stands that some mages do indeed have higher melee skill than jobs that are normally conceived to be melee.

Think of them like you would a mage now... PUP is assasited by a puppet... much as a mage is assisted by magic, and should not rely upon its (the players, not the pets) melee alone to do its job, much as a mage should never rely upon soley its melee to do its job, however it can be supplimental.

Pup get martial arts, and attack fairly fast (and two times). You can also sub war and each sushi and other good stuff. Mages (particullary blm/smn/sch)... get low skill/acc, can't really eat any sort of acc food + definatly cant use sam sub in any sort of normal setting. Also staves are slow as fuck without the super haste gear other 2h jobs get (sam, dark, drg, war etc).

[Hanyoko]

New mage job trait - lvl <something higher then 37)
TP is retained when changing from any staff weapon to another staff.

Coupled with the above note where casting spells can generate TP; could make it slightly usefull.

Example : casting stuff~ has over 100 TP Spirit taker resting (signet applicable retains tp)

[Zathous]

Pup get martial arts, and attack fairly fast (and two times). You can also sub war and each sushi and other good stuff. Mages (particullary blm/smn/sch)... get low skill/acc, can't really eat any sort of acc food + definatly cant use sam sub in any sort of normal setting. Also staves are slow as fuck without the super haste gear other 2h jobs get (sam, dark, drg, war etc).

Even though that was mainly concerning whm and rdm which is what the topic is about, sure, ill bite. Last time I checked sub war does nothing for acc (atk and def bonus?). sushi, ok fine mages dont have that advantage, and that sucks, but they aren't meant to melee for DoT, just go up and swing until they can get 100 tp for a spirit taker / mythic WS to boost their magic acc/atk or MP return depending on what you can afford or need in the situation. If you want to get that uber haste/acc gear do it on a job that doesn't have another leg to stand on in the form of some type of magic. And if you are actually that concerned about your acc, then your probably in a situation where you shouldn't be meleeing anyway, so why worry?

[Headache]

A lot of you didn't agree with me, and I'm not even sure what my original point was, having gone without sleep. But if there actually IS someone at Square that reads the community forums, maybe they'll hear our side of it.

Not the crap at the festival where you submit questions in a little plastic box, they pick 5 easy questions and claim to be out of time.

[Amastacia]

Dear SE: fix ninja, at least some kind of job ability
if you dont.
im going to murder the goofy looking dev guy.
he looks weak.

This.

And make RDM & WHM better at their strengths.

For a random 2005 example... why can a BRD/WHM silence Kirin as well as me?

[evilpaul]

W.turban (5% Haste)
Goliard Body (4%)
Nashira Legs, Feet (2%, 1%)
Swift Belt (4%)

Looks like a pretty "awesome" BLM & SMN meleeing build. SCH can't wear half of it, of course. RDM gets Dusk, not that I've ever seen a meleeing RDM wear a piece of it. WHM gets the previously mentioned Blessed but most pile on STR gear for some reason.

I'd just tell people to go level a melee job if they want to bludgeon and/or stab things if I was SE, personally. The meleeing mage is doable to a decent extent already. Why make it retard-proof with some update when there's better things to fix and improve?

edit: Besides, SE will just add RDM to Bow WSes so that RDMs can use their Wise gear to miss Sidewinders.