RDM|WHM Melee "Tweaks" to come...

[Sunrider]

We gonna give WARs an ability to cure next?

/DNC?

[Ahlah]

I keep seeing all this random shit like, "Well RDM can be a good skillchain partner for a THF" or "A WHM can really be a good substitute for a SCH with X, Y, and Z gear."

The point we were trying to make is that, why would you go out of your way to have your RDM be a skillchain partner with a THF, when your 8 other melee people there can do it better? Why would you require a WHM with X, Y, and Z gear to replace your SCH...when you could just fucking invite the SCH?

Just because SE want to put RDM in frontline doesn't necessarily mean they want to turn RDM into a DD job. What I am trying to say is out of all the mythic weaponskills, Death Blossom is the only that can open both Light and Dark skillchain. It also has magic evasion down effect which appears to be quite potent (according to wiki, BRD is able to land elegy on HNM without elemental seal).

Perhaps SE is trying to encourage players to take advantage of this weaponskill, get a RDM to open light skillchain for BLM to land ThunderIV/BurstII, or Darkskillchain for RDM and BRD to land slow/paralyze/elegy/Blizzard IV/FreezeII. Since magic burst also boosts magic accuracy, this combination should greatly enhance performance of RDM/BRD/BLM. It also makes sense for RDM to get Murgleis.

Ppl bring THF to big fight because they want better drop, it's not the job you want for constant high damage output. THF will make a perfect RDM skillchain partner in camp where weak mobs can be found. Both RDM and THF can TP on weak mob, sleep it and turn to HNM to perform skillchain, just means THF can now contribute more to the fight and their use in HNM battle is not limited to Feint and TH only.

[Ohaigaiz]

Words can hurt too

[arus2001]

I keep seeing all this random shit like, "Well RDM can be a good skillchain partner for a THF" or "A WHM can really be a good substitute for a SCH with X, Y, and Z gear."

The point we were trying to make is that, why would you go out of your way to have your RDM be a skillchain partner with a THF, when your 8 other melee people there can do it better? Why would you require a WHM with X, Y, and Z gear to replace your SCH...when you could just fucking invite the SCH?

People need to stop looking at what's "possible" and look at what's most plausible and efficient. Unfortunately, while it's "possible" for WHM to do all these things, other jobs can do it 10 times better.

I think because there are the 8 people who can do it better are why SE's presently looking into it. While doubtful the result will be directly damage oriented, hopefully the utility will cause a bit of reconsideration before that 8 becomes a situational 4, etc..

Considering most people are interested in just zerging shit down as fast as possible, I doubt whatever happens will do much. Defense is a lost art in FFXI, and I'm not even talking about DEF/VIT.

[Cyrax39]

Through reading this post as someone who liked RDM melee, i'll throw this out there since I haven't seen it. Referring to the idea of spells giving tp, why not give the jobs in question a spell mastery job trait 38+? i.e. WHM Divine Mastery and Healing Mastery giving tp based on damage done/amount healed. RDM Enhancing mastery and enfeebling mastery with fixed tp based on mp cost. While we're at it, SE wants SMN to keep avatars out more, why not give them a Summoning mastery that gives them regain for themselves and the pet while an avatar is out, increasing the damage and usefulness of avatar tp based abilities like the nukes.

[Sunrider]

Through reading this post as someone who liked RDM melee, i'll throw this out there since I haven't seen it. Referring to the idea of spells giving tp, why not give the jobs in question a spell mastery job trait 38+? i.e. WHM Divine Mastery and Healing Mastery giving tp based on damage done/amount healed. RDM Enhancing mastery and enfeebling mastery with fixed tp based on mp cost. While we're at it, SE wants SMN to keep avatars out more, why not give them a Summoning mastery that gives them regain for themselves and the pet while an avatar is out, increasing the damage and usefulness of avatar tp based abilities like the nukes.

Great idea, but, it was kind of already covered on page 3:

It's an idea I've seen paraded around a bit(and thrown about myself), but maybe it's high time S-E introduce new TP gain methods. So far, unless you're SAM, TP only comes from giving or receiving damage. TP modes set to award jobs for Enfeebles landed, or nukes landed, or HP/MP healed, attacks evaded... etc.

Think Overdrive Modes from FFX, which is basically what I'm getting at.

[Valena]

Gaining TP with spell wouldn't do much for Rdm since they need to change staves with each specific offensive spell.

And no, you can't have Whm and Rdm retain their TP upon changing weapon, or h2u Kraken TPing then Perdu WSing new big abuse. it would be broken as hell.


Whatever SE decides to implement at this point, my only wish is that it'll be still useful for soloing/farming purposes. No melee in xp pt, no, just no.

[Sunrider]

Gaining TP with spell wouldn't do much for Rdm since they need to change staves with each specific offensive spell.

And no, you can't have Whm and Rdm retain their TP upon changing weapon, or h2u Kraken TPing then Perdu WSing new big abuse. it would be broken as hell.


Whatever SE decides to implement at this point, my only wish is that it'll be still useful for soloing/farming purposes. No melee in xp pt, no, just no.

You should go back and read the thread's source.

The whole point(and thus the topic of this thread), is incentive for RDM and WHM to participate on the frontline, which usually means melee. Unless RDM got Staff skill in the last update, I'd say that leaves out staves and the swapping issue. I'd also say this involves WHM using clubs, since that is their best weapon. What's been discussed so far are TP gain methods, particularly for jobs that spend more time casting than swinging, or backline jobs that can't/don't swing at all.

Whether the developers intend this for exp parties(of any kind), is anyone's guess.

[Ahlah]

Gaining TP with spell wouldn't do much for Rdm since they need to change staves with each specific offensive spell.

Seriously how hard is it to understand the concept behind Murgleis and Death Blossom? The reason why Death Blossom has magic evasion down effect is to allow RDM to land debuff without switching to Elemental staves. Whats the purpose of getting Murgleis if RDM are forced to switch to elemental staves all the time. Even if you don't have Murgleis other RDM in your alliance can still do the job for you with Elemental staves.

Ppl need to be more open minded and quit whining about RDM/WHM melee. They are not meant to replace DD jobs. Think laterally and focus on other benefits they will bring to the battle.

[Izzy]

Ppl need to be more open minded and quit whining about RDM/WHM melee. They are not meant to replace DD jobs. Think laterally and focus on other benefits they will bring to the battle.

Once again, why go out of your way to make accommodations for an off the wall setup when I could invite an AH RDM that can do the job just as good without the hassle?

I don't get to come WHM/NIN to events by making people adjust their party/playstyle for me. I get to come WHM/NIN because I can play like a normal melee job without any special accommodations and increase party efficiency. Waiting for a RDM to get TP/WS/Skillchain is going to decrease efficiency way more than just fucking casting slow with your earth staff on.

I foresee this in the future:

BLM Leader : Ok, BLM get ready to magic burst on JoL!
RDM : WAIT I DON'T HAVE TP TO APPLY MAGIC DEFENSE DOWN
(RDM) <call> CURRENT TP 53%!

[Ahlah]

Once again, why go out of your way to make accommodations for an off the wall setup when I could invite an AH RDM that can do the job just as good without the hassle?

I don't get to come WHM/NIN to events by making people adjust their party/playstyle for me. I get to come WHM/NIN because I can play like a normal melee job without any special accommodations. I foresee this in the future:

BLM Leader : Ok, BLM get ready to magic burst on JoL!
RDM : WAIT I DON'T HAVE TP TO APPLY MAGIC DEFENSE DOWN
(RDM) <call> CURRENT TP 53%!

You greatly underestimate RDM's ability to gain TP. There are very few jobs in this game capable of wielding 2 multihit weapons with decent skills. RDM/NIN have access to Justice Sword and Joyeuse, both are not particularly hard to obtain, if you have Murgleis (which is also a multihit weapon), the aftermath effect will further enhance melee performance.

I hope you are not foolish enough to ask your RDM to tp on JoL. Grab a near by mob and keep it at camp. RDM can build TP on it and sleep it when ready to skillchain.

Why do you insist to turn WHM into another killing machine? Do you honestly think it will be fair for a job to be able to haste/cure/status cure, cast Reraise III and still be able to ditch out damage comparable to a well geared SAM? Melee RDM and WHM are supposed to be situational. WHM melee can do well in first 2 floors of salvage remnant, limbus, missions etc. RDM + Death Blossom in Ouryu fight. It's about game balance. It's simple logic.

[SenseiFF11]

That is completely false, they don't need to swicth to staff for each offensives spells. Most RDM's exagerate with the staff swicthing, and need to do more test to realise that most of the times they don't really need it. And if you read the interview carefully, they want that update to affect rdm and whm inside a party, not for a solo purpose.

Gaining TP with spell wouldn't do much for Rdm since they need to change staves with each specific offensive spell.

And no, you can't have Whm and Rdm retain their TP upon changing weapon, or h2u Kraken TPing then Perdu WSing new big abuse. it would be broken as hell.


Whatever SE decides to implement at this point, my only wish is that it'll be still useful for soloing/farming purposes. No melee in xp pt, no, just no.

[evilpaul]

So, are people really arguing that landing spells should give TP so that RDMs can skillchain on HNM mobs to make landing spells easier on them?

Also, when is this RDM supposed to be SCing on Ouryu? (Which isn't that hard to land spells on for a decent BLM to start with.)

[Izzy]

You greatly underestimate RDM's ability to gain TP. There are very few jobs in this game capable of wielding 2 multihit weapons with decent skills. RDM/NIN have access to Justice Sword and Joyeuse, both are not particularly hard to obtain, if you have Murgleis (which is also a multihit weapon), the aftermath effect will further enhance melee performance.

I hope you are not foolish enough to ask your RDM to tp on JoL. Grab a near by mob and keep it at camp. RDM can build TP on it and sleep it when ready to skillchain.

You aren't even reading a thing I post are you? My point was all the shit you're saying is situational can be done by another readily available job better and easier than you can.

Why do you insist to turn WHM into another killing machine? Do you honestly think it will be fair for a job to be able to haste/cure/status cure, cast Reraise III and still be able to ditch out damage comparable to a well geared SAM? Melee RDM and WHM are supposed to be situational. WHM melee can do well in first 2 floors of salvage remnant, limbus, missions etc. RDM + Death Blossom in Ouryu fight. It's about game balance. It's simple logic.

Thanks for bringing the Mjollnir into the mix on a completely unrelated note. Douchebaggy twat.

[Ahlah]

Why do I have to go through every single detail every time I post a simple concept?

As for Ouryu fight, you will need crowd control for Ziryu and elementals anyway, RDM can build TP on Ziryu. Wait for 1 min after Ouryu is slept, unleash DB on Ouryu which should cause her to take off in sky, RNG can then close light skillchain, followed by magic burst Aero. If you have a COR, he/she can close dark skillchain for MB ice. DB's magic evasion down effect lasts for 25-55sec which means BLM can continue to nuke. Even without magic burst it still make sense to just let RDM use DB on Ouryu right before she wakes up.

You aren't even reading a thing I post are you? My point was all the shit you're saying is situational can be done by another readily available job better and easier than you can.

Do you even play BRD/BLM/RDM? Name me a job that can greatly enhance the magic accuracy of these jobs by performing a simple action? Do you know how much effort it takes for a BRD to setup proper ES elegy build?

Thanks for bringing the Mjollnir into the mix on a completely unrelated note. Douchebaggy twat.

You are the one who keep telling ppl how your damage output sux depsite relic/KC and completely ignore the fact that SE have never intended for mage job to be frontline warrior. Sorry you picked the wrong relic, word of advice, only upgrade a relic/mythic weapon because you love the job or for its utility purpose, never do it for epeen damage.

[Izzy]

Did you see how you had to completley alter the entire ouyru strat around you. That's the shit I'm talking about.

Yes, I have a 75 blm that I use 90% of the time. Let me tell you about how awesome it would be to have to wait for a rdm to sub in every time I wanted to mb on jol instead of just rotate sam around an have it be 300x easier.

Lastly, I was trying to show you examples of making myself useful in situations without altering strategies and being a huge pain in everyones ass.....much like you're doing right now.

[Ahlah]

How's that going to change your LS's ouryu strategy? you are going to need some1 to kill off the worm or sleep it anyway. The only difference now is that RDM will have to use DB before Ouryu wakes up and it's not that hard to organise.

There is plenty of time for RDM to get 100TP. When Ouryu is flying, when ouryu is sleeping. Any RDM with decent melee gear and Justice/Joyeuse can easily hit 100TP way before MB is needed.

[Nirokun!]

Do you even play BRD/BLM/RDM? Name me a job that can greatly enhance the magic accuracy of these jobs by performing a simple action? Do you know how much effort it takes for a BRD to setup proper ES elegy build?

Corsair.

[Yugl]

Corsair.

Edit: NVM

[ubermonkey]

Corsair.

Scholar.

I know COR gives Conserve MP and that nice stuff, not so sure about magic ACC.

Rdm roll.