Hagun and Onimaru

[Tsuko_Asura]

LOL this is coming from a person that sold his hauby and decided to ws with askar body and byakkos for about what 2 months or so? And you sure lack the acc.


lag and double post FTL

What's wrong with WS'ing in Askar if you don't have an Osode?

[VZX]

What's wrong with WS'ing in Askar if you don't have an Osode?

Because Domaru is fine too
for WS, of course.

[ringthree]

What's wrong with WS'ing in Askar if you don't have an Osode?

Lack of accuracy. It really depends on your WS accuracy.

[ringthree]

Why use Rana ever outside of self darkness? That doesnt make any sense at all, I've never ever heard or seen any parse with Rana close to Gekko. And its Gekko, not y/g/k.

Onimaru works fine. Hagun is an upgrade but I mean, its not going to make or break you. Just save up for it and until then use Onimaru. There is no concrete % increase with Hagun over Onimaru really, its just another one of those upgrades that pushes up your dmg a bit more. Its no "OMFG I'm a beast now" upgrade.

Btw, look into getting a Smart Grenade for melee set. Its free and takes just a little bit of time to go through the CS to get it, has +4 attack as hidden effect.

A higher damage GK with Rana does decently. Rana with Hagun is poor because of the TP modifier compared to Gekko.

[Drex]

Lack of accuracy. It really depends on your WS accuracy.

Unless you are flashed or fighting a raged HNM, your accuracy is at or near capped on gekko, no matter what you ws in. And yeah, domaru > askar body for WS, askar body is eva gear or town gear for SAM unless you're getting madrigal or something.

[Saivan]

I totally have to play devil's advocate here.

So generally everyone states that YGK (namely Gekko) accuracy is basically capped on everything, barring flash or some HNM... then goes to say Domaru is okay to WS in and is better than Askar because Askar lacks accuracy.

Wut.

NQ Domaru (relevant stats): STR+8, WS Acc+8
Askar: STR+5, DA+2%, Attack+12 (attack nearly irrelevant in high attack situations when using YGK supposedly but will I mention it anyway)

If the accuracy is irrelevant, especially in EXP, you mean you'd trade 2% DA and 12 attack for 3 more STR.

But Pole Grip (2% DA) is sworn to be overall better than Axe Grip (3 STR).

WUT

MAKE UP YOUR MINDS GODDAMN.

GODDAMN.

[Drex]

Shouldn't be wasting time spamming floor 80 for askar body when you could be working on saving up for an osode instead

Also, axe grip < pole grip for TPing. You can't swap grip for WS, so even if axe grip were a little bit better than pole grip for WS, the bonus to TP phase would make pole more worthwhile. Onimaru is better than hagun for TPing, so I guess we should TP in onimaru and WS in hagun, yeah?

I guess you can question askar vs. domaru for WS, but osode is better than both so who cares?

[Saivan]

I guess you can question askar vs. domaru for WS, but osode is better than both so who cares?

I agree.

But devil's advocate, etc. etc.

[Talisien]

I've used both and I'd agree it approaches (but does not reach) a 5% decrease in total damage to use Onimaru over Hagun. I don't have Tachi: Rana though, so I'm sure that would help.

[FailureMidgard]

I totally have to play devil's advocate here.

So generally everyone states that YGK (namely Gekko) accuracy is basically capped on everything, barring flash or some HNM... then goes to say Domaru is okay to WS in and is better than Askar because Askar lacks accuracy.

Wut.

NQ Domaru (relevant stats): STR+8, WS Acc+8
Askar: STR+5, DA+2%, Attack+12 (attack nearly irrelevant in high attack situations when using YGK supposedly but will I mention it anyway)

If the accuracy is irrelevant, especially in EXP, you mean you'd trade 2% DA and 12 attack for 3 more STR.

But Pole Grip (2% DA) is sworn to be overall better than Axe Grip (3 STR).

WUT

MAKE UP YOUR MINDS GODDAMN.

GODDAMN.

Pole Grip is better than Axe Grip because of the DA while TPing, not because of the DA on WSes. And you can't switch that slot for WS macro...3 str actually probably does outdmg 2% DA on a High Str Mod WS after fTP multipliers.

I don't feel like doing the math right now, 'cause I'm feeling lazy, but your argument is definitely flawed.

[Edit:]
Hagun scales better with better WS gear, I think 5% damage increase with Hagun must be assuming low on the gear/merits. It is a flat 20% increase vs a WS that is done with a weapon with the same damage. Yea, Onimaru has superior TPing stats by a little, but you should still be accuracy capped there excluding Lurkers and such. Also, realize that something like Overwhelm inflates these #s also...the 20% becomes ~24% after Overwhelm. Hagun should pretty easily up your overall damage by ~10% (and WS dmg by ~20%ish).

[Marokko]

^ looking at what chronokid said, and im not gonna even respond to that because he is purely just butthurt about how he got kicked from a lowgrade HNMls and then got turned down by every good ls he applied to.

edit: askar is better to ws in than NQ hauby anyway >.>

[ringthree]

Unless you are flashed or fighting a raged HNM, your accuracy is at or near capped on gekko, no matter what you ws in. And yeah, domaru > askar body for WS, askar body is eva gear or town gear for SAM unless you're getting madrigal or something.

Unless you have Usukane bits, Askar maximizes haste potential while maintaining a 6-hit build.

And I definitely don't have capped accuracy on everything except when "flashed or fighting a raged HNM" on Gekko... I really wish that I did.

[ringthree]

I totally have to play devil's advocate here.

So generally everyone states that YGK (namely Gekko) accuracy is basically capped on everything, barring flash or some HNM... then goes to say Domaru is okay to WS in and is better than Askar because Askar lacks accuracy.

Wut.

NQ Domaru (relevant stats): STR+8, WS Acc+8
Askar: STR+5, DA+2%, Attack+12 (attack nearly irrelevant in high attack situations when using YGK supposedly but will I mention it anyway)

If the accuracy is irrelevant, especially in EXP, you mean you'd trade 2% DA and 12 attack for 3 more STR.

But Pole Grip (2% DA) is sworn to be overall better than Axe Grip (3 STR).

WUT

MAKE UP YOUR MINDS GODDAMN.

GODDAMN.

One problem with your logic, Pole Grip applies to melee and WS use.

Meh, I use Sword Strap anyway, so *shrug* ^_^

[Rage2k]

^ looking at what chronokid said, and im not gonna even respond to that because he is purely just butthurt about how he got kicked from a lowgrade HNMls and then got turned down by every good ls he applied to.

edit: askar is better to ws in than NQ hauby anyway >.>

If you plan on doing HNM (which you are) and not having a hauby laying around just makes you a moron, every sam should have a hauby laying around if you cant afford an Osode. for HNM at least.

Which from what i gather you cant afford to buy since your linkshell left you and cant get gil any other way

And i know chrono, i was in the same hnm that you ran and he ended up leaving when he noticed you and your brother (therealchibo) where taking the LS bank which he warned everone and no one listened.

[WraithLakshmi]

Hagun scales better with better WS gear, I think 5% damage increase with Hagun must be assuming low on the gear/merits. It is a flat 20% increase vs a WS that is done with a weapon with the same damage. Yea, Onimaru has superior TPing stats by a little, but you should still be accuracy capped there excluding Lurkers and such. Also, realize that something like Overwhelm inflates these #s also...the 20% becomes ~24% after Overwhelm. Hagun should pretty easily up your overall damage by ~10% (and WS dmg by ~20%ish).

5% was what I was saying for my gear. I have about 135 str, 460 attack, and capped merits in my WS gear. It is a 20% increase vs. a weapon with the same damage, but Onimaru doesn't have the same damage. Hagun is actually a 13.5% boost in WS damage over Onimaru (for my setup). Onimaru is also vastly superior when it comes to melee DPS, being 16.3% superior, so it makes up that ground. Also, the part about Overwhelm effecting Hagun more than Onimaru is false.

1.975 / 1.6625 = 1.188 = (1.975 * 1.19) / (1.6625 * 1.19)

In the end, accounting for just WS damage, melee strikes, and accuracy, Hagun wins by 1.25%. Now, when I did this calculation, I didn't account for the fact that Meditate favors Hagun, that you might tp over 100 for Sekkanoki, or for Skillchain damage. With all these factors, I estimated that Hagun would come out on top by about 5-6%.

Another way to estimate this is as follows:
From frequent parsing, I've always noticed that my damage seems to be split about 25% melee and 75% WS. Assuming this, and applying the different balances that Onimaru would bring shows that Hagun outdamages Onimaru by 6.4%. Thus, my estimate of somewhere in the neighborhood of 6% seems to be pretty accurate.

Like I said in a previous post, for those of you wondering if you should pay 3 mil for a hagun, consider the fact that it is the most cost effective upgrade you can buy for Samurai. People spend a mil for a +5 str ring, which is only about a .5% increase in damage over a +4 str ring. Hagun is entirely worth the price.

So generally everyone states that YGK (namely Gekko) accuracy is basically capped on everything, barring flash or some HNM... then goes to say Domaru is okay to WS in and is better than Askar because Askar lacks accuracy.

Wut.

It's not because Askar lacks accuracy, it's because Askar lacks STR. Domaru will be a boost of about 2-3 damage on your WS, which is about a 1.75% increase in damage. If you are wearing Brutal earring and Pole grip, Askar increases your chance to have a ~50% higher damage WS by 1.87%, equating to an approximately .51% average increase in damage.

In merits, neither the accuracy on Domaru, nor the attack on Askar will come into the equation because both will be capped for Gekko if you have decent gear. Against HNM, I would venture that the Acc on Domaru would be more helpful overall.

And it's somewhat moot, since either option is really inferior to Kirin's Osode.

[FailureMidgard]

5% was what I was saying for my gear. I have about 135 str, 460 attack, and capped merits in my WS gear. It is a 20% increase vs. a weapon with the same damage, but Onimaru doesn't have the same damage. Hagun is actually a 13.5% boost in WS damage over Onimaru (for my setup). Onimaru is also vastly superior when it comes to melee DPS, being 16.3% superior, so it makes up that ground. Also, the part about Overwhelm effecting Hagun more than Onimaru is false.

1.975 / 1.6625 = 1.188 = (1.975 * 1.19) / (1.6625 * 1.19)

In the end, accounting for just WS damage, melee strikes, and accuracy, Hagun wins by 1.25%. Now, when I did this calculation, I didn't account for the fact that Meditate favors Hagun, that you might tp over 100 for Sekkanoki, or for Skillchain damage. With all these factors, I estimated that Hagun would come out on top by about 5-6%.

Another way to estimate this is as follows:
From frequent parsing, I've always noticed that my damage seems to be split about 25% melee and 75% WS. Assuming this, and applying the different balances that Onimaru would bring shows that Hagun outdamages Onimaru by 6.4%. Thus, my estimate of somewhere in the neighborhood of 6% seems to be pretty accurate.

Like I said in a previous post, for those of you wondering if you should pay 3 mil for a hagun, consider the fact that it is the most cost effective upgrade you can buy for Samurai. People spend a mil for a +5 str ring, which is only about a .5% increase in damage over a +4 str ring. Hagun is entirely worth the price.

Assuming capped attack, and capped accuracy for WS (which according to the other thread is the case):

"Base" damage we will call 1000 (for an easy # to use)
Theoretical 75 dmg weapon (not Hagun): 1562.5 dmg
Hagun: 1875 dmg
83 dmg weapon(with 135 str): [1 + 8/(75+15+84)] * 1562.5 = 1634.3

(1875-1634.3)/1634.3 = 14.7%
A little lower than my guess, still higher than what you're saying.

I really have no clue where you get the 16.3% increase to normal melee damage, but that seems skewed to me.

75*1.147=86.025 ; 86.025 - 75 = 11.025% increase in total damage
25*1.163=29.075 ; 29.075-25 = 4.075% increase in total damage

11-4 = 7% in favor of Hagun. This is assuming your 16.3% dmg # is correct, which I still doubt.

As for my comment about overwhelm, you misunderstand my comment. When you have >50% WS dmg, anything that will further up the %age of your WS dmg will favor Hagun, because Hagun is better for the WS portion. If you take your 75/25 split, and assume no Overwhelm, that will drop down to ~62/38. The higher your WS:melee ratio is, the more useful Hagun is to you (and the worse Onimaru becomes) But you are correct that it scales the same if you only look at 1 single weaponskill.

I may have overestimated before (without doing the math), by saying 20%/10%, but I still say you are low, and Hagun adds more than you are saying (I say it's in the 7-9% range for overall damage). Then again, you are still saying Hagun is the best cost upgrade there is, so I dunno why I'm arguing. That being said, wtf @ 1mil for str rings, they are like 300-400k on midgard!

[theo]

I'm kinda surprised at the abundance of people suggesting osode over haub for weapon skills. I still prefer haub+1 over osode personally. Even if Y/G/K has an accuracy bonus that doesn't automatically give you a capped 95% WS acc like some people seem to think. As for askar, if I had it I'd probably only use it in situations where I knew the mobs had a low natural evasion... limbus or assault comes to mind.

[WraithLakshmi]

Even if Y/G/K has an accuracy bonus that doesn't automatically give you a capped 95% WS acc like some people seem to think.

On most things, yes it does. The accuracy bonus is pretty massive.

Failure, the numbers you used to compare WS damage aren't realistic, I'm sure not doin 1875 gekko's.

Here's the calculations I used:

WS:
(75+16+83)*1.975*1.19*2.2= 899.7
(83+16+83)*1.6625*1.19*2.2=792.1
899.7/792.1 = 1.136

Hagun has a 13.6% WS advantage. Ws gorgets close the gap between the two a bit.

Melee:
(75+10)*1.27 = 108.4
(83+10)*1.32 *1.025(hitrate boost)= 126
126/108.4 = 1.162

Onimaru has a 16.2% melee dps advantage.

[trencher]

I'm kinda surprised at the abundance of people suggesting osode over haub for weapon skills. I still prefer haub+1 over osode personally. Even if Y/G/K has an accuracy bonus that doesn't automatically give you a capped 95% WS acc like some people seem to think.

Not to jab at you personally, but why is it so hard to accept that Y/G/K do have a 95% Acc?

its pretty easy to test;

step one - go and do 100 Gekko with your "normal" WS gear. I assume for you its haub +1, foragers, etc (ie: mix of acc and str gear)

step two - go and do 100 Gekko with Osode, Smilidon +1, etc (ie: only +str gear)

step three - compare parses.

I know its difficult to accept that the haub +1 you paid 3 million, or more for isnt the best weaponskill piece, but suprise it just isnt.

is Haub +1 the "best" TP body piece, absolutely. In as much as gear is, you guessed it, situational.

It just seems like people are just refusing to see the obvious math and just rethink their WS setups because of some belief that a 500k (Forager's) back piece isnt as good for WSing in as the 25k (Smilidon +1) back piece.

How much something is worth doesnt make it "better".

Numbers don't and can't lie.

[Drex]

Numbers don't and can't lie.

Not saying it's the case here, but while numbers can't lie, people can lie using numbers.