Hagun and Onimaru

[theo]

I know its difficult to accept that the haub +1 you paid 3 million, or more for isnt the best weaponskill piece, but suprise it just isnt.

Hey now, I didn't buy it I made it myself. Its my baby ; ;

But in all seriousness, I'll go ahead and throw on Osode for weapon skills next time I merit and see how it goes. I parse almost every party I join so I definitely don't just eyeball things. I am still pretty skeptical of Osode on anything with high-ish evasion but I'll find out myself whenever I get around to partying again.

[trencher]

It was kind of weird to dust off the Osode for Sam, trust me.

I was very, very skeptical at first. I'm the guy who has sworn by af+1 hands for WS cause I was to afraid to eat the minus Dex on Alky's...

[Enedin]

I'm the guy who has sworn by af+1 hands for WS cause I was to afraid to eat the minus Dex on Alky's...

Just eat it™

[FailureMidgard]

On most things, yes it does. The accuracy bonus is pretty massive.

Failure, the numbers you used to compare WS damage aren't realistic, I'm sure not doin 1875 gekko's.

Here's the calculations I used:

WS:
(75+16+83)*1.975*1.19*2.2= 899.7
(83+16+83)*1.6625*1.19*2.2=792.1
899.7/792.1 = 1.136

Hagun has a 13.6% WS advantage. Ws gorgets close the gap between the two a bit.

Melee:
(75+10)*1.27 = 108.4
(83+10)*1.32 *1.025(hitrate boost)= 126
126/108.4 = 1.162

Onimaru has a 16.2% melee dps advantage.

The numbers i used there are completely irrelevant, 1000 could be 100 or it could be 10, all that will do is move the decimal places on my #s...it doesn't matter how unrealistic my numbers are, they are a baseline and will have the exact same relationship no matter what number you choose in place of the 1000.
As for Onimaru's accuracy, if you have top gear/merits, you really should be riding 95% on normal mobs, unless you have a good place in your gear to drop 5 accuracy and gain something worthwhile, you are overestimating that.
I did forget about gorgets, which will narrow it a little, I guess.
And 108 average damage on a melee hit seems low (or about right if you're low on support/buffs/food)...

[Genosync]

so like can we clear cut this for people without all the math mumbo-jumbo? seriously, it's annoying to hear people quibble about melee math when it barely matters, if your mages/support suck your damage isn't going to matter on any mob that matters anyway, lol

so, clear cut from what I'm reading and my many years/jobs of FF experience:

Body to WS in:
- Rana: Hauby
- Y/G/K: Osode

that's a no brainer.

If you're using Onimaru:
- You might get better returns out of Rana over the course of time, and Y/G/K are not as good as they are with a Hagun no matter which way you slice it, and with Overwhelm actually merited (like it should be) Hagun gets an even greater power boost

If you're using Hagun:
- You're definitely without a doubt going to get way better returns out of Y/G/K


Seriously, all these things are so easy to figure out, who cares what the actual value of damage difference is between the weapons, or how much better each weapon is, etc. Hagun's better than Onimaru for 99.9% of things, period, because the WS damage is superior with Y/G/K than Onimaru and using Rana and the extra damage gained while TPing.

Let's use some common sense about the game, this math shit for meleeing seriously gets me in a rage sometimes. One is obviously overall better than the other; who cares by how much, if you don't have it, you're gimping yourself. Saying that you're only XX% off the best possible build doesn't matter, when so many people actually have it and you don't.

[Liquidedust]

Let's use some common sense about the game, this math shit for meleeing seriously gets me in a rage sometimes. One is obviously overall better than the other; who cares by how much, if you don't have it, you're gimping yourself. Saying that you're only XX% off the best possible build doesn't matter, when so many people actually have it and you don't.

If you read my OP the math behind it was exactly what I did ask for, we already know that Hagun is the superior choice and have always been so. I were asking by exactly how much since I wanted to know the exact math.

[Tordall]

Yay for the wisdom of mobs. Just b/c everyone thinks something is true doesn't make it so. How long did it take people to realize that SH was actually a 31+ synth? Hagun was 'stealth nerfed' when they did the 2nd 2-handed adjustment by reducing the WS mods at 200 TP. All the testing that showed it to be brokeningly good before that is invalidated b/c of that.

People need to show recent parses w/ well geared samurai showing that Hagun actually parses better, not just gives higher weaponskills.

The only time we have a Hagun win an Einherjar parse is when the people with Onimarus are on other jobs. Either that 3 mil is better invested in other zerg gear, or Onimaru is better for zergs (and presumably merit parties).

I suspect the real answer is something along the lines of Hagun for Sam/thf when you're stapling hate onto a tank, and Onimaru for other subjobs & roles.

[mdkuser]

Unless you have Usukane bits, Askar maximizes haste potential while maintaining a 6-hit build.

And I definitely don't have capped accuracy on everything except when "flashed or fighting a raged HNM" on Gekko... I really wish that I did.

One problem with your logic, Pole Grip applies to melee and WS use.

Meh, I use Sword Strap anyway, so *shrug* ^_^

I can't aggree more with you there. I'm tired if hearing people here and there claiming they don't need accuracy on Y/G/K. My sam gear some of the best including usukane, I got 4 GK merits and yet get <85% acc on both melee and WS, MMJ north camp.

Also yes, sword strap owns pole grip, if you got usukane or askar ( and your acc with askar is high enough).

[ringthree]

I can't aggree more with you there. I'm tired if hearing people here and there claiming they don't need accuracy on Y/G/K. My sam gear some of the best including usukane, I got 4 GK merits and yet get <85% acc on both melee and WS, MMJ north camp.

Also yes, sword strap owns pole grip, if you got usukane or askar ( and your acc with askar is high enough).

I don't know if you can use Sword Strap without full Usukane (or at least Body and Feet) without making sacrifices that are better made up in other places. It's very close with what I use for WS right now and sometimes if I am doing something laggy like Einherjar, sometimes I bazaar my Osode and just use Usukane body for WS. It might not be so bad with Askar body if you use it for WS too, but I haven't done the math on it.

[mdkuser]

I need to full time usubody to maintain a 6 hit using a sword strap ( ws and tp). I don't use head, hands except rare situations, and of course, leg = ws only, feet= tp only.

[ringthree]

I need to full time usubody to maintain a 6 hit using a sword strap ( ws and tp). I don't use head, hands except rare situations, and of course, leg = ws only, feet= tp only.

I used head for TP before I completed my set. Amele did the calculations and it basically ended up being that unless you had completely pimp haste gear and double march + haste, the accuracy gain would be worth more than Turban, so it depends on what you are using for head.

[WraithLakshmi]

Yay for the wisdom of mobs. Just b/c everyone thinks something is true doesn't make it so. How long did it take people to realize that SH was actually a 31+ synth? Hagun was 'stealth nerfed' when they did the 2nd 2-handed adjustment by reducing the WS mods at 200 TP. All the testing that showed it to be brokeningly good before that is invalidated b/c of that.

People need to show recent parses w/ well geared samurai showing that Hagun actually parses better, not just gives higher weaponskills.

The only time we have a Hagun win an Einherjar parse is when the people with Onimarus are on other jobs. Either that 3 mil is better invested in other zerg gear, or Onimaru is better for zergs (and presumably merit parties).

I suspect the real answer is something along the lines of Hagun for Sam/thf when you're stapling hate onto a tank, and Onimaru for other subjobs & roles.

Please read the math I posted. Hagun is better than Onimaru on anything where you are WS'ing at 100-200 tp. IF you are holding TP to 300 to WS (aka Dark Ixion), Onimaru is better.

[Genosync]

Also, you can't just go based fully on parses/math either. Different people perform differently and have different skill with their job, you've got a random luck factor, and you've got also the same person performing differently on a different day, and then you sometimes have people's performance being cut due to support being not as good, etc etc etc.


So many freaking differences where you have to make a common sense decision, and make a clear cut choice based on what's available that's set in stone.

Math+Common Sense > Parses

end.

[Zosi]

Please read the math I posted. Hagun is better than Onimaru on anything where you are WS'ing at 100-200 tp. IF you are holding TP to 300 to WS (aka Dark Ixion), Onimaru is better.

Does Hagun fully effect WSs under Meikyo? If it acts like Sekkanoki and uses the "real" TP, Onimaru would definitely be better for short zerg fights too since the vast majority of your WSs would be under Sekka or 2hr.

Also, parsing Einherjar to try to prove something is... a crapshoot at best. You have 20+ people beating on the mob, and so many variables that you have very little control over. Even assuming your parser is 100% accurate... are you getting haste and the same buffs consistently? Are you getting status cures (attack down, blind, paralyze, etc) at the same time? Are you using the same food and sub? Are they taking hits and having to cast Utsusemi or pop TE more? Are you engaging at the same time? Some of those are concerns for merit parties too, but rarely to the extent you see them in EHJ.

[Wolfknight]

hagun definitely works under two hour, my 2nd/1st ws always do about same damage.

[Hawking]

Does Hagun fully effect WSs under Meikyo? If it acts like Sekkanoki and uses the "real" TP, Onimaru would definitely be better for short zerg fights too since the vast majority of your WSs would be under Sekka or 2hr.

Except for the situation you just described, you only fall under Oni's latent on 1-2 WS (i.e ones that drop you below 100TP after said WS) Resulting in a +2 base DMG increase over hagun. Unless I am out of the loop on how oni operates under 2hr/Sekka.

[Hakamaru]

For all you people struggling to grasp the fact that the 1-hit WS ACC bonus is enormous, this is your lucky day. I dug up all these links for a troll on KI. No one's found the limit to the 1-hit ACC boost.

http://i77.photobucket.com/albums/j7...ls_9-19-08.jpg

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/ffxi-...ml#post2000180
Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Samurai
Allakhazam.com: Final Fantasy XI: Samurai
WS Accuracy - Killing Ifrit

In the 2nd Alla thread I linked, Shinta got his melee ACC down to the low 60%s on Blaggers and yet his WS hit-rate is 98%+ with no gear swaps. I think that's the most dramatic demonstration of the 1-hit ACC boost I've seen.

If any of you claiming that Y/G/K are not auto-capped have any large sample-size parses of yourself with clearly uncapped WS ACC, please post them. If not, you're probably mistaken to begin with.

[Marokko]

If you plan on doing HNM (which you are) and not having a hauby laying around just makes you a moron, every sam should have a hauby laying around if you cant afford an Osode. for HNM at least.

Which from what i gather you cant afford to buy since your linkshell left you and cant get gil any other way

And i know chrono, i was in the same hnm that you ran and he ended up leaving when he noticed you and your brother (therealchibo) where taking the LS bank which he warned everone and no one listened.

1st off, I only got 1 piece of gear from the linkshell
2nd off, I have not bought gear since the Linkshell began
3rd off, Chronokid has no proof and we PROOVED we did not steal gil
4th do you want me to keep going on cause i can?

[mdkuser]

I used head for TP before I completed my set. Amele did the calculations and it basically ended up being that unless you had completely pimp haste gear and double march + haste, the accuracy gain would be worth more than Turban, so it depends on what you are using for head.

An easy calculations leads to this: with haste, 1 march, hasso , dusk gloves, swift belt, byakkos, usu feet (=50% haste), Walhara turban beats usukane head as long as your accuracy 79+%, and becomes all the better that your haste is higher. With 2 marches, its better as long as your acc is 63+% ( and it's even worse with askar: 68% and 54%...). Usukane/askar heads don't come close to ace's helm or turban, since you need to be very close to capped acc for turban to beat ace's (~93% to be exact).

[mdkuser]

parse

I dont call a parse something with just one hundred weapon skills as sample...