The "Should Tanks Blink" thread.

[Hosom]

Most of that isn't really doing anything compared to the extra hate that faster TP could be making. The enmity of IR Sallet is relatively irrelevant compared to the extra hate you could have via Atonement spam, and the MDB doesn't matter if you aren't being hit with magic damage. The same can be said for Ritter Gorget vs. PCC or Parade, you aren't really benefiting from it, if anything you could make it part of a Cure 3 swap for extra hate rather than idling in it. Resentment enmity+ can easily be swapped into spells/JA, and you can get a slight defensive boost by idling in Boxer's, or even a DD cape.

I should have been more specific as to what I meant by my idle set, will discuss in more tells when my shitty net goes back up...

[Neosutra]

@ Kandi:

No, I reach the hate threshold faster, recap it more quickly by faster flash recasts, and lose less emnity over time via less damage taken. They arent equal.

Blinking will NEVER mess up your shadow casting. Ever.

And yes I flash with shadows down. Though with proper damage reduct set and haste/shield sets, I dont have my shadows down very much, and when I do I have a high chance of shield block and take less damage.

But you are right: It isnt the stupidest(as that isnt a proper conjegation), it's the dumbest information ive ever read. Thankyou.

And I'm not insulting you. I just want you to understand the specific statements you are making are very wrong. There are situations and valid reasons not to blink. The ones you listed are not it.

[kandiekane]

Once at the hate cap (that a pld can reach reasonably quickly via cure swaps and a good haste build), huge amounts of emnity boosts may not grant you a noticably large improvement in hate generation. The argument here is wether a pld can continually recap their hate lost from pure decay and damage taken via cure swaps/flashs/jas, or wether a greater deal of emnity is required:

i.e. Does a pld really need any emnity once they are at the threshold and are playing the game of bouncing hate back to the top (i.e. should a pld move stricly to damage reduct set, as any hate action will keep them at the top at this point).

I would argue that this is typically the case, but having the extra emnity will allow you to recover the lost emnity from decay/damage taken more quickly in events where you are inevitably taking more damage than just a few lost shadows, and thus not staying as close to the cap as you would like (i.e. mobs with multiple AOEs that hit through shadows and/or wipe shadows and mobs that Terror). This combined with lower recasts on flash and lower damage taken via lower recast on utsu and damage reduct builds will keep that gap from the emnity cap lower.

I stopped reading when you said this.

If loss of hate from shadows is causing you to lose hate then LOL you fucking fail.

Terror happens, your co-tank will have hate and pop sentinel > flash > cure3 > cure4 > cure3 > cure4 > flash and you should be well on your way. No need for stupid spellcast macro's to regain hate.

You do not take less damage from 2 second lower recast on utsu because either ichi or ni will ALWAYS be up, unless something really bad happens and 2 seconds won't help you there.

[kandiekane]

@ Kandi:

No, I reach the hate threshold faster, recap it more quickly by faster flash recasts, and lose less emnity over time via less damage taken. They arent equal.

Blinking will NEVER mess up your shadow casting. Ever.

And yes I flash with shadows down. Though with proper damage reduct set and haste/shield sets, I dont have my shadows down very much, and when I do I have a high chance of shield block and take less damage.

But you are right: It isnt the stupidest(as that isnt a proper conjegation), it's the dumbest information ive ever read. Thankyou.

And I'm not insulting you. I just want you to understand the specific statements you are making are very wrong. There are situations and valid reasons not to blink. The ones you listed are not it.

First of all, shaving 2 seconds off or your flash macro losing 8 enmity is the "stupidest" thing i've ever heard. You are not ever going to be perfectly riding your flash macro. You will be stuck casting shadows, curing someone/yourself, using ja's, etc. Add all that up, 2sec x3 per minute, you would in a perfect situation arrive at capping enmity a big wopping 30 sec's before a non blinking pld.

You flash while your shadows are down? Don't fool yourself, you have the same chance in having shadows down as me. News flash, ichi and ni are supposed to be swapped continuously, 2 seconds from haste won't do shit, and if you think 5 more shield skill from your m head is going to save your ass LOL. Why don't you go use a sinfiender instead of that haut/burtgang/excal/mauch+1 you're using.

And blinking DOES mess up my shadows. Of course, you prolly never hit your macro's as fast as I do to tell a difference.

[Kaeko]

If I were to tank I wouldn't blink. You can get a fairly good amount of situation gear in on slots that don't cause blinking (was already a post on this).

My reasoning would be even though it's not your fault if a mage screws you over because he tries to keep manual target on you, you're still dead whoever's fault it is. I'd rather be slightly less efficient for the few minutes before hate caps and allow any random guy to be able to cure me. This is opposed to completely maxing yourself with gear swaps, but relying on the person handling you to be in sync. I agree a mage should be able to handle you blinking as often as you want. Fact is a lot don't. Like I think you get a disproportional number of mages saying they can handle it on forums like BG.

You're reliant on others as a tank - your efficiency is not solely a product of your own play, but yours in addition to the play of those you're directly reliant on. You cannot necessarily control their skill level or coherence level at any point in time, only your own. Therefore, imo it's safer to slightly gimp yourself to account for possible mistakes your support makes.

The argument that 'mages should be able to handle it' is like placing blame if they screw up. Again, you're dead regardless of who's fault it is. Not everyone plays at peak performance all the time. I'm sure most of you have played with sleep-deprived, drunk, incoherent, chat-spamming, or BG-surfing players at events. It's annoying sometimes but that's just how it is.

[Neosutra]

Im sorry, mages targeting is no longer a valid excuse for tanks to not blink with the multitude of tools out there (both with cpu and w/o).

And Kandi, you continue to misrepresent the improvements of blinking.

You arent getting "just 2 seconds off recast and flash" from blinking. You are getting 20-30 more emnity, faster flashes, faster recasts (which apparently you're a noob if you want shadows to be up any faster), and less damage taken when shadows are down.

Kinda makes me wonder what you're fighting with that mindset Kandi, Genbu?

[kandiekane]

Im sorry, mages targeting is no longer a valid excuse for tanks to not blink with the multitude of tools out there (both with cpu and w/o).

And Kandi, you continue to misrepresent the improvements of blinking.

You arent getting "just 2 seconds off recast and flash" from blinking. You are getting 20-30 more emnity, faster flashes, faster recasts (which apparently you're a noob if you want shadows to be up any faster), and less damage taken when shadows are down.

Kinda makes me wonder what you're fighting with that mindset Kandi, Genbu?

erm what are you gear swapping that is giving you 20-30 more enmity? please elaborate.

Faster flashes, yea like I said by 2 seconds.

Faster recasts, yea like I said by 2 seconds.

Do you swap out homam for enimty? The only piece you can swap out are head and body, I assume you swap bmask for wturban during flash and swap ares for valor?

You actually lose 4 enmity to gain 5% haste in that scenario. . . Given you swap every other non-blinkable gear like I stated.

[kandiekane]

Im sorry, mages targeting is no longer a valid excuse for tanks to not blink with the multitude of tools out there (both with cpu and w/o).

Ignorance is bliss. Please read what Kaeko stated above kthxbai

[drwaffles]

Only really semi-related, but could anyone please explain to me why some people prefer to macro in haste over +enmity for Flash (e.g. using Turban instead of Bahamut's Mask)? It seems to me that this would only be more effective if you consistently cast Flash the second it is ready, which I'm pretty sure isn't the case considering you also need to focus on keeping shadows up, timing your JAs, throwing Cures around and so on.

[Kaeko]

Im sorry, mages targeting is no longer a valid excuse for tanks to not blink with the multitude of tools out there (both with cpu and w/o).

And Kandi, you continue to misrepresent the improvements of blinking.

You arent getting "just 2 seconds off recast and flash" from blinking. You are getting 20-30 more emnity, faster flashes, faster recasts (which apparently you're a noob if you want shadows to be up any faster), and less damage taken when shadows are down.

Kinda makes me wonder what you're fighting with that mindset Kandi, Genbu?

I'm actually interested in seeing the best "non-blink" setup that includes exchange of non-blinking gear slots VS. best full blinking setup. Right now people just talk in theory but it's not hard to take it a step above and talk actual #s.

The slots that cause blinking are: Weapon, Shield, Ranged, Head, Body, Hands, Legs, and Feet.

Weapon: Rarely switched right?
Shield: Generally not switched
Ranged: Keep Lamia (+1) always? Or is there some other strategy here?

Head: Turban <> Baha Mask?
Body: Hydra Haub <> ???
Hands: Homam only right?
Legs: Homam only right?
Feet: Homam only right?

I'm probably oversimplifying but I'd really like to know exactly what is being switched here?

EDIT: Also for the question of Haste vs. Enmity on flash, I think you want to stack enmity on this in practice. Stacking haste first will win if you calculate ideal scenarios but you can't possibly use flash every moment it's up. If you lag by even 2-3 seconds enmity stacking results in a better overall enmity generation.

[Neosutra]

erm what are you gear swapping that is giving you 20-30 more enmity? please elaborate.

For JAs and Cures, Baha mask, Hydra Haubert, valor+1 gloves, ryl knights legs, askar feet are the visible swaps (totalling 27 more emnity, not counting non visible swaps).

Faster flashes, yea like I said by 2 seconds.

Faster recasts, yea like I said by 2 seconds.

I idle in af+1 feet and Kaiser head(or valhalla depending on what I am doing, and if im not in atonement spam mode). So the haste difference is actually 8% more haste, buying me more than 2 seconds. Plus, im not sure what you are fighting, but Ill take every second I can get. The same goes with flash. If Im buying 2-4 seconds on flash recast each time, I reach the cap significantly faster than someone that isnt (and with more emnity due to using emnity body).

Do you swap out homam for enimty? The only piece you can swap out are head and body, I assume you swap bmask for wturban during flash and swap ares for valor?

Ill assum you're talking about flash, and I use hydra haubert like I said, and keep on haste for flash in other areas.

I dont have a problem with you not blinking. I just have a problem with you misrepresenting the positive effects of it.

@ Kaeko. Thats about right. Though I would say a tank that REALLY doesnt want to blink would just go all out haste and use hydra or ares body for full time idle. If you are already at the recast via double marches + haste, you can swap out for baha mask or even kaiser for full time. I am also a big fan of af+1 feet (or askar for non aegis plds) for standard idle when your recast is capped.

[kandiekane]

I'm actually interested in seeing the best "non-blink" setup that includes exchange of non-blinking gear slots VS. best full blinking setup. Right now people just talk in theory but it's not hard to take it a step above and talk actual #s.

The slots that cause blinking are: Weapon, Shield, Ranged, Head, Body, Hands, Legs, and Feet.

Weapon: Rarely switched right?
Shield: Generally not switched
Ranged: Keep Lamia (+1) always? Or is there some other strategy here?

Head: Turban <> Baha Mask?
Body: Hydra Haub <> ???
Hands: Homam only right?
Legs: Homam only right?
Feet: Homam only right?

I'm probably oversimplifying but I'd really like to know exactly what is being switched here?

you are correct.

turban <> bmask <> m head
Hydra haub <> ares
Homam feet <> af+1

are the only other things to add

[kandiekane]

For JAs and Cures, Baha mask, Hydra Haubert, valor+1 gloves, ryl knights legs, askar feet are the visible swaps (totalling 27 more emnity, not counting non visible swaps).

Ill assum you're talking about flash, and I use hydra haubert like I said, and keep on haste for flash in other areas.

I already stated that Blinking for JA's is a must and is accepted by all.

Yes in that situation, you would be gaining 5% haste and enmity remain the same. But again, 2 sec's, or 4 sec's in your case doesn't mean much for flash. Because, again, you will NOT be riding your flash macro. You lie if you say you are.

[Niki]

@ Kaeko. Thats about right. Though I would say a tank that REALLY doesnt want to blink would just go all out haste and use hydra or ares body for full time idle. If you are already at the recast via double marches + haste, you can swap out for baha mask or even kaiser for full time. I am also a big fan of af+1 feet (or askar for non aegis plds) for standard idle when your recast is capped.

So this whole discussion is about headgear and feet swaps (assuming Hydra hauberts dont rain from the sky and your PLD's only got Ares cuirass). I somewhat fail to see how that makes a difference between a good and a bad tank or hardly any difference at all. But I just went briefly over the thread until Kaeko's question catched my interest.

[Neosutra]

The logic that you wont be able to hit your flash macro whenever it is up applies to a person regardless of wether they blink or not. If you state that a person will be unable to hit flash whenever it is up due to recasting shadows and/or being incompetant, and thus 2-3 seconds will go by, then you need to add that time to the person that wasnt using proper haste swaps as well. So it is still a difference of 10-15% improvement in recast.

And yes, Im a good tank, thus I hit flash whenever it is up. It isnt hard to pay attention to shadows/JAs/emnity and ensure you are ready. But then again, you went a step farther in the last thread. You stated a tank shouldnt use flash whenever it was up so they wouldnt "keep too much hate" off their cotank. It is statements like that, and your continued misrepresentation of the facts that weaken your argument.

Edit: @ Niki:

Depends on what you consider minor improvements, and I assume your tanks have valor body as well. Hydra Haubert isnt the only emnity body peice in the game. I for one prefer to do my job as best as I can, but to each their own. Im sure your tanks have nothing to learn and cant get any better.. right?

[Zhais]

In response to ppl not understanding how many macro's you need for supporting a pld, let me give you an example:

Need 4 sets of this (1 for tank#1, 1 for tank #2, 1 for <stal>, 1 for <stpc>)

paralyna, silena, viruna, cursna, blindna, stona, erase
cure1, cure2, cure3, cure4, cure5

** if you sub sch, put in a bunch of other crap like light arts and parsimony
______________________________________________
Need to be very quickly accessible to these macro's

curaga1, curaga2, curaga3, maybe curaga4
regen1, regen3, barfira, barthunder
divine seal, devotion, martyr
protectraV, shellraV
Elemental Seal, slow, paralyze, blind, silence
Blink, SS, sneak, invis, repose, flash

Not to mention regular stuff like Rx3, RR, teleportsx9

You need to be a fucking cat to have fast enough reflexes to achieve all of that even with the new <stal> command.

I feel I need to respond to this.

First, why the heck do you need to macro teleports (x9? wtf....), RR, most JAs (DS maybe not so much, but even I don't have that macro'd). For things you don't use often, just type them out or use the magic menu. I've always thought some mages were /too/ reliant on macros.

I've survived all these years with at most 2 pallets devoted to whm and one isn't even full. Know what I did on outside curing at say Tiamat? Either made /ta macros or just had them in my chatlog ready to go. Took all of 30 seconds to prepare

Second, why do you need four sets of -na spells? /ta macros, type it out, the new target system, etc. You are vastly overcomplicating things. Hell, the only -nas I have macro'd are paralyna, silena and erase. Everything else I just type out and it hits the intended target regardless of wether they are blinking or not.


And here's the beautiful thing about spellcast: macros are 100% not needed with a proper spellcast setup. I type /ma "Reraise III" <me> on myself, swaps in appropriate conserve MP, fast cast, and haste gear, and voila. I now have reraise III. Without a macro.

Whodathunk?

[Niki]

Depends on what you consider minor improvements, and I assume your tanks have valor body as well. Hydra Haubert isnt the only emnity body peice in the game. I for one prefer to do my job as best as I can, but to each their own.

Well I'm a mage only and dont really know about tanking gear, my question is if its really a noticeable difference and not just something for your mind.

[Neosutra]

Noticebly different when fighting things that wipe shadows alot when I idle in my shield set, and use haste for recast. Also significant difference in time it takes for me to reach hate cap.

But let me ask you this:

Do you notice a difference when you stack wind skill to reach new march tiers and get 1-2% more haste? Or when you stack mnd for para/slow fpr 1-2% more para proc or slow potency?

Or does that extra % you add to your buffs/debuffs simply help the fights go smoother and show you arent just another joe? Isnt going the extra mile what seperates us from the people that just got the job and help us do the harder fights significantly easier than someone just starting?

[Siralin]

I'm actually interested in seeing the best "non-blink" setup that includes exchange of non-blinking gear slots VS. best full blinking setup. Right now people just talk in theory but it's not hard to take it a step above and talk actual #s.

The slots that cause blinking are: Weapon, Shield, Ranged, Head, Body, Hands, Legs, and Feet.

Weapon: Rarely switched right?
Shield: Generally not switched
Ranged: Keep Lamia (+1) always? Or is there some other strategy here?

Head: Turban <> Baha Mask?
Body: Hydra Haub <> ???
Hands: Homam only right?
Legs: Homam only right?
Feet: Homam only right?

I'm probably oversimplifying but I'd really like to know exactly what is being switched here?

Weapon/Shield/Ranged all stay put.

Head:
Turban(Flash, :ni, Idle)
Baha (Cures, JA)
Valor (Ramp)
Koenig (Ichi)
V.helm (oh shi, idle on things you can't hit worth shit)

Body:
Ares's(Idle)
Hydra(Cures, Flash, JA)
Valor(Cover)
V.body (Oh shi, Idle on things you cant hit)
Blood (Chivalry)
Koenig (Rampart)

Hands:
Homam(Idle, Flash, :ichi/ni)
Askar (Cures)
Valor (Shield bash for the Aegis users)
Koenig (Rampart)

Legs:
Homam (Idle, Flash, :ichi/ni)
Hydra (Cures, JA)
Koenig (Rampart)

Feet:
Homam (Idle, :ni, flash)
Askar (Cures)
Glt.+1 (:ichi)
Valor (Sent)
Koenig (Rampart)

I think that gives a general idea, depending upon what the tank has/doesn't have. Not sure if koenig is worth losing the enmity though. I just use enmity gear for my rampart macro since I don't have any Koenig.

[Kroot]

Excessive blinking should be reserved for difficult mobs and be toned down for stuff like sky and dynamis. Not everyone is going to want to use <stpt> because like myself some mages use <t> for spells. Switching from <t> to <st> after years of playing is going to slow me down until my brain rewires to go spell first then target.