The "Should Tanks Blink" thread.

[kandiekane]

Lose what exactly? You can't even give me a good reason why /BLM is better than /RDM for Einherjar/Dynamis. Well, I can give you one myself.

Sleepga & Sentinel, you can build large amounts of hate on several mobs at once. Of course, as /RDM you can just quickly Dispel/Blind/Sleep/Bind each mob and then use Sentinel after grabbing hate on everything. /BLM is just quicker.

Obviously, Diaga & Poisonga work too but that would only be in situations where you don't want the mobs to be sleeping, heck, you may aswell just super tank the mobs instead.

Still think I know nothing about endgame and don't know what im talking about?

umm, have you ever heard of multiple /assist and war tanking? if you sleepga > sentinal a bunch of mobs, pls tell me what happens when they wake up, you die instantly haha. If they were unsleepable mobs, you would also die instantly. Pld's only useful in einherjar for /assist so /war is better cos you have voke and flash for initial hate, and 2 to kite the fucking tier3 demon boss, which you would die /rdm and /nin would be better.

Yes, I still think you are a noob in endgame.

[Kaeko]

You, Neo, and cookies are the only 2 idiots trying to back yourselves up when even Kaeko (the man who discovered enmity) says he wouldn't blink like a fucking idiot for marginal gains.

Just because you invented or discovered something doesn't mean you know how best to interpret it. I'd break out a really lame Columbus discovered America analogy but I'm sure everyone understands my point. Good thing about using quantitative data is you can use it in arguments like this to back you up one way or another. Just because I came up with the number doesn't make everything I say about it correct as far as how to use it.

That being said, /RDM is a good tank in enough situations where I wouldn't call it a niche use. It's not as overall useful as PLD/NIN but it's still very very good. It's better that /DRK for the longer duration blood tanking exercises in my opinion. /DRK is better for shorter ~30 second fights because you can substitute voke for stun at good recast timer (affected by haste, JAs aren't).

As far as the other debates like the blinking one, just because they disagree with me doesn't mean either of us are wrong. It was meant to be a valid debate and most players were advocating blinking so I played devil's advocate and went the other way with it. Notice I don't get flamed for disagreeing with everyone else as long as I make a clear argument and am civil about it.

[kandiekane]

Just because you invented or discovered something doesn't mean you know how best to interpret it. I'd break out a really lame Columbus discovered America analogy but I'm sure everyone understands my point. Good thing about using quantitative data is you can use it in arguments like this to back you up one way or another. Just because I came up with the number doesn't make everything I say about it correct as far as how to use it.

That being said, /RDM is a good tank in enough situations where I wouldn't call it a niche use. It's not as overall useful as PLD/NIN but it's still very very good. It's better that /DRK for the longer duration blood tanking exercises in my opinion. /DRK is better for shorter ~30 second fights because you can substitute voke for stun at good recast timer (affected by haste, JAs aren't).

As far as the other debates like the blinking one, just because they disagree with me doesn't mean either of us are wrong. It was meant to be a valid debate and most players were advocating blinking so I played devil's advocate and went the other way with it. Notice I don't get flamed for disagreeing with everyone else as long as I make a clear argument and am civil about it.

aye, but still doesn't make my arguments wrong. Just because I have character doesn't mean my points are invalid. I have yet to see any career pld's disagree with me except for these 2 idiots.

**edit
please elaborate on what else /rdm can be used for, when alternative subs are much better. Dynamis/limbus/enherjar/HNM's/Dark IxionLoL has all been a failed attempt. Really, how many pld's out there, show of hands, tank DI /rdm on a daily basis. Do YOU even do it cookies? if not then stfu. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it's optimal.

[Neosutra]

umm, have you ever heard of multiple /assist and war tanking? if you sleepga > sentinal a bunch of mobs, pls tell me what happens when they wake up, you die instantly haha. If they were unsleepable mobs, you would also die instantly. Pld's only useful in einherjar for /assist so /war is better cos you have voke and flash for initial hate, and 2 to kite the fucking tier3 demon boss, which you would die /rdm and /nin would be better.

Yes, I still think you are a noob in endgame.

This is the single most ignorant post I have ever read on the internet.

You die instantly if you get hate on 6-7 mobs at once? Pld is only good for /assist? What the fuck are you smoking? You dont know what crowd control is? Jesus chist, the above statement just... I dont even have words.

Also, EVERYONE here is disagreeing with you kandie, EVERYONE. Get it through your head.
I really dont think you even have pld leveled. Have you even done einherjar before?

I dont believe you even play this game.

[malak]

This really is an irrelevancy, though. Square already fixed the problem. You no longer require Windower, BlinkMeNot, or personal macros to deal with a blinking tank.

True unless you're outside of the alliance. ^___________^

<stal> is nice, but they should really just fix the targeting issue.

[[Cookies]]

umm, have you ever heard of multiple /assist and war tanking? if you sleepga > sentinal a bunch of mobs, pls tell me what happens when they wake up, you die instantly haha. If they were unsleepable mobs, you would also die instantly. Pld's only useful in einherjar for /assist so /war is better cos you have voke and flash for initial hate, and 2 to kite the fucking tier3 demon boss, which you would die /rdm and /nin would be better.

Yes, I still think you are a noob in endgame.

I find it hard to believe that 5-10 mobs will be able to kill an Aegis PLD with Reprisal, capped 410 damage Stoneskin and a good Phalanx instantly (before a BLM can Sleepga them).

That being said, /RDM is a good tank in enough situations where I wouldn't call it a niche use. It's not as overall useful as PLD/NIN but it's still very very good. It's better that /DRK for the longer duration blood tanking exercises in my opinion. /DRK is better for shorter ~30 second fights because you can substitute voke for stun at good recast timer (affected by haste, JAs aren't).

Thanks Kaeko. Usually in Einherjar you'll be holding mobs for a few minutes which is why I think /RDM is superior.

Do YOU even do it cookies? if not then stfu. Just because it can be done doesn't mean it's optimal.

I did mention you need exceptional gear, D.Ring, Aegis etc. But, if you have this available which a lot of linkshells do nowadays then it is the optimal way to do things.

[Kaeko]

aye, but still doesn't make my arguments wrong. Just because I have character doesn't mean my points are invalid. I have yet to see any career pld's disagree with me except for these 2 idiots.

If you're in the minority in an argument, you're supposed to justify your claim and try to convince everyone else. They weren't attacking you for your ideas they were attacking you because of how you reacted after you disagreed with them. I feel like a kingergarden teacher for saying this.

Also sometimes it's not what you say but how you say it -_-;

Just chill out and make a nice, cohesive argument without calling anyone an idiot and I think you'll get a better response. I agree with some of the things you're trying to say but you have to try really hard to get to what you're actually saying with all the personal attacks.

[Neosutra]

What do you agree with that he is saying? I've reread his posts a few times and cant find a single inteligent thing.

[[Cookies]]

What do you agree with that he is saying?

That /DRK can be useful in certain situations I'd imagine.

[Neosutra]

Oh wow.

Did he know the sky was blue as well?

[Kaeko]

Mainly the /DRK is useful and that enmity build (or mixed) is superior to pure haste on flash. I'm not going to go all out defending the latter though.

(Don't put me on the spot like that!)

[Neosutra]

Mathematically full haste on flash is always superior, wether capped or uncapped on hate.

You can maintain a significant amount of emnity during flash while still capping recast via using the appropriate amount of haste.

Not sure what support you/he would have for that arguement.

[[Cookies]]

Mainly the /DRK is useful and that enmity build (or mixed) is superior to pure haste on flash. I'm not going to go all out defending the latter though.

(Don't put me on the spot like that!)

A lot of the slots that your putting enmity into don't actually have a haste alternative (body/neck/earrings/rings/back) so it is possible to have quite a lot of +enmity even in a pure haste build.

[Kaeko]

It's definitely true that you get mathematically more out of a haste build (prioritizing haste), but what about the alternative factors such as if you were to trade say 8 enmity for 2 seconds off the recast, would you use it exactly within the 1-2 second window recast is up?

If so, then yes the mathematical model works. If no, even if you're off by ~1 second, I think the enmity trade would win. I'm mainly talking about a strict trade of Baha Mask vs. Turban. Most the enmity models comparing flash and haste I see don't factor in the delay between recast up and casting, nor do they factor in the fact it actually takes time to cast. It's a small window, but when you're comparing a 2 second difference small windows matter for optimization.

[Hyriu]

I subbed BLM for Einherjar crowd control, inb4urstoopid.

[Neosutra]

You would have lost that 2 seconds from doing misc. actions wether you had a lower recast or not, so the net gain over not using haste is still much greater and an inevitably faster emnity growth rate (and recap rate when at cap). And yes, as the above poster said, we take a pld/blm to einherjar too, and it works amazingly. Oddly enough, he doesnt get one shotted!

[Kaeko]

You would have lost that 2 seconds from doing misc. actions wether you had a lower recast or not, so the net gain over not using haste is still much greater and an inevitably faster emnity growth rate (and recap rate when at cap).

This is true, point taken.

Also /BLM ES actually lands on PLD/BLM. It's kind of sad how good ES it is.

[rezn0r]

tomorrow morning i'm going to make a thread where we can all argue about bullshit we've argued before, on this forum, except i'll make the first post seem as though it's a new topic we haven't really dealt with before. it'll be obvious we have, and in fact it'll just be a continuation of another thread where i got yelled at for derailing, and everything discussed in it could technically be found if i just searched the forum in the first place - which means i'm breaking like 4 or 5 of the forums rules - but who cares because i'm drawing more attention to the forum and getting more people to stay logged in. fuck me sideways. right now though i'm going to sleep. bye bye.

[[Cookies]]

I subbed BLM for Einherjar crowd control, inb4urstoopid.

YOU FUCKING SUCKS MAN!

Unfortunately, I haven't actually had the opportunity to go as PLD to Einherjar yet as my linkshell generally manages without but I would like to try it myself!

[Neosutra]

tomorrow morning i'm going to make a thread where we can all argue about bullshit we've argued before, on this forum, except i'll make the first post seem as though it's a new topic we haven't really dealt with before. it'll be obvious we have, and in fact it'll just be a continuation of another thread where i got yelled at for derailing, and everything discussed in it could technically be found if i just searched the forum in the first place - which means i'm breaking like 4 or 5 of the forums rules - but who cares because i'm drawing more attention to the forum and getting more people to stay logged in. fuck me sideways. right now though i'm going to sleep. bye bye.

Actually, this topic was in response to the constant derails of 3 other threads, and was an attempt to do it in a civilized manner. If you read the first 4 pages, it was going quite well.

Also, what have you added to this thread, or any?

Sleep tight, and thanx as always for your insightful contribution at trolling, rate up!