The "Should Tanks Blink" thread.

[Neosutra]

What Cookie said:

Basically, Shadow mantle is 10% chance of complete damage negation (and you will never get interupted when taking 0 damage unless knocked back). So it offers the highest damage reduction peice and spell interuption peice for the back spot.

To match the DoT reduction of the Shadow Mantle, the boxers would have to increase block rates by about 18-20% depending on what sheild you use, and a minimum of 10% block rate increase to match the spell interuption rate. 10 Shield skill will never provide you with an increase of 10% block rate, more like half that when you arent already capped.

As for idling, I idle in that to help with AoE absorbtion, and valor cape occasional to maintain a higher hp % so I lose less emnity CE via getting hit.

[Jhun]

I tried using Shadow Mantle on my Ichi macros before, but it turns out Boxer is a lot better alternative and gave me better results.

There are not so many physical AoEs there I guess (Sulfurious Breath, Tourbillion and S-whatever Gale from Sandworm) I still prefer idling in Valor.

[Neosutra]

The better results are probably observational (i.e. you think you are getting better results, however only about 5% or so of those shield blocks came from adding the mantle).

Statistically, Shadow mantle is significantly better for ichi/ni macro than boxers.

[Tubbers]

This is late -- I've been out and not trolling BG, and even though kandie has essentially had his ass handed to him I feel it is relevant to address some of his posts.

What about people outside of an alliance in dynamis/einharjar? So your saying to target mobs and yourself now to cure other people?

<stal> works fine in an alliance only setting, but once you get into something exceeding that, then your in trouble.

#edit

even with just those 2 macros pallets (4 required for /sch) you will still be bouncing around 7-9 macro palettes for support.

Out of Alliance members:--
Dynamis:
The people who are blink spamming are more or less only tanks and mages. The people who most likely need random out of alliance cures are melees, who are generally not blink spamming. Just using a <stpc> + tabtabtabtab + enter on a low HP out of alliance person works perfectly well. I can honestly say that I have never seen someone die from not being cured in time because they were blinking in dynamis.

Einherjar:
This doesn't apply at all to my LS because we split up into independent groups. Each party is self sustaining so only PT/Alliance members are ever really targeted. Even if it did apply, once again, I've never seen or heard of someone die from blinking too much.

Targeting:
I'm saying that the ability to do so (to target specific players by default depending on certain current target) is present in SpellCast because you asked me how it was possible. It is most certainly not necessary to have 7-9 macro palettes to deal with tank parties/blinking players for any support job ever. Two is enough for me for all events.

At this point I'm fairly certain you do not play a support job, some of your claims are just outright ridiculous -- needing to macro Raise, Reraise, and every Teleport? Really, every teleport needs to be a macro? It is also apparent you don't use SpellCast or at least don't know how powerful it is.

um, no, please reread and stop being a dipshit. Nothing cookies said makes sense AT ALL. If any other respectable PLD from BG wants to vouche for what cookies said, I will /bow out and admit i'm stupid. But look at what he's saying:

- /rdm is better than anything for dynamis/einherjar/limbus/aspid/sky/sea
- aegis pld better to sub rdm to tank DI than /nin
- I dont have time to go back and check what other BS he wrote

You, Neo, and cookies are the only 2 idiots trying to back yourselves up when even Kaeko (the man who discovered enmity) says he wouldn't blink like a fucking idiot for marginal gains.

Unless I'm proven wrong by accountable PLD's, like tekki, stainslav, wopa, merona, whoever else that has all there is to have on pld, pls STFU you two idiots and stop sucking each other's dick.

This just made me laugh. Stanislav has been singing the praises of /RDM for pretty much every event. I'm absolutely certain he claims to use it often for DI, Fafnir/Nidhogg, and probably just about every other event he uses PLD for.

On top of this, /RDM is clearly superior for quick hate building on large numbers of enemies compared to /WAR. If you have a dynamis/Ein pull, and you want to build hate on a large number of mobs, something like 6-7+, one of the best ways to do this is to chain quick to use, quick to reuse abilities/spells like Dispel, Blind, etc. Just cast once on each mob to get some hate, then use HP swap macros and cure yourself (Sentinel helps a lot obviously). PLD/WAR cannot do this nearly as fast, it is much easier to do with a different SJ.

Furthermore you will not die immediately when the mobs wake up if you have any halfway decent "oh shit" set. Having Phalanx will reduce damage taken at least as much, if not more than the DEF boost from /WAR, and /BLU clearly outdoes /WAR in this department.

To stir discussion a little more, here are some possible benefits of blink spamming:
-Keep Cure hawks off your back so you can cure yourself to (re)gain enmity.

And some drawbacks:
-Increase the risk of inducing an epileptic seizure.

[Neosutra]

LOL wow I didnt see he edited his post to call me and cookie shitty plds and those 4 awesome plds. For one, Stan/Tekki havent said a thing to back kandie's incoherent babling up and would probably be embarrased he mentioned their name, merona has stayed out of this one and doesnt use half her gear, and I cant believe he even mentioned wopa's name. Not to mention him even attempting to call my pld gear sub par.

Seriously, I demand to know where this guy comes from. What server/LS is Kandi from, he is just too much.

[Tubbers]

I'd also like to know who he is lol.

Really this entire discussion just comes down to how much you trust your mages:

Do you squeeze the extra efficiency from blinking indiscriminately and require your mages to have good macro structure and know how to deal? Or do you not blink so that your support can use whatever macros they want, or they aren't annoyed/etc.?

If you trust them, and you've worked with them a lot, and you know they are capable of it -- turn the strobe light on. If you don't think they're able to deal with it -- turn the strobe light off. Like everything else in this game it is situational, and those are the two situations.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I use all of my gear. Thanks for thinking of me though.

I'll make a proper post when home I guess.

edit:

Nothing really much to say about this thread. I dunno who this Kandie person is either. It's all well and good that they put me in the ranks with Stan and Tekki--those are some really great Paladins. However, some of the babbling I can't wrap my brain around either. Some of it doesn't have anything to do with what this thread was originally intended to do, which was masked to be a solid discussion about what the title says precisely, but those that know Neo for what he's worth, know it was all a ruse so he could see how many people agreed with him (and therefore build some internet army of Paladins that would "have his back" whenever this topic inevitably came up in another thread).

There's been some really good discussion in here, and I am glad to see both sides represented well. As for my words, I have said all I can about this subject in other threads and given my reasons, which were not accepted by the author of this thread. I've been downplayed as a crappy player who doesn't "maximize" the job to its potential (due to my personal preference of avoiding a seizure while tanking), who doesn't use all their gear (in the way the author would prefer), and who therefore must reside in a linkshell where all his melees "hold back" (because he wouldn't be able to keep hate otherwise). So really, I stayed out of it because every time I post something, Neo's got some witty insult to hurl back at me about the way I play the job I love. I am sorry I do not meet your standards, and I apologize further that it leaves you so painstakingly butt-hurt as a result. What can I say? I guess I have that affect on people from the internet.

I have posted in your thread because my name was dragged into it and you brought me out of hiding thereafter. In the end I am going to play the way I play and not try to change everyone else's ideas about tanking, blinking, or whatever else you have strong convictions about. If we've gained nothing from reading BG as a collective all these years, then remember only that things are situational, and past that, personal preferences come into play. You can't slam everyone for not playing the way you want them to play (or the way you play personally), that isn't what the community is all about. When people ask for an opinion, offer it, you are certainly knowledgeable enough to give the right answer, but don't strong-arm them into believing that your way is the only way to do it. There, I've said my peace.

The non-blinking, soon-to-be Aegis/Excal Paladin from Titan,


Merona

P.S. Please carry on with the discussion, some of it is really enjoyable.
P.P.S. "Non-blinking" is a bit misleading. For details on what I do blink for, see my FFXIAH gear sets.

[Neosutra]

Thankyou Merona. I apologize for bringing your name up again, but I was mostly responding to kandie's reference to you (for which I believe he referenced you due to your opposition to blinking in the last few threads).

If you read the first post, I actually used your reasoning as one of the few good logical reasons to not blink (in that we dont quite know the situationally quantifiable improvements from blinking over non blinking, and they may not offer drastic improvements for the effort). In the end, I agree one shouldnt "strong arm" someone into believing them. I apologize if this thread has again come to that. The only reason I and others argue against the non blinking advocates, is to continue the debate and determine the best course of action (and thus dispel the good reasons from the bad). Unfortunately in any debate, we must examine the downsides of each argument put forth by both sides, so simply saying "I respect your opinion, thanx" doesnt really cut it. We are forced to delve deeper and examine the validity of each statement and counter with our own argument, until we reach some common ground that the community as a whole can sit back and finally call fact.

I apologize that often times these debates get personal and insulting, and I would say that my first post was not a "ruse" to see who agreed with me (I already knew who didnt and who did). I was hoping to simply provide some good reasons for new plds to choose to blink or not blink, as the argument had become muddled in the last few threads. I think the majority of this thread (save a few posts), was some very good information.

Who knows if I will ever change my opinion on blinking, but for now, as always, I will strive to pump out every bit of performance I can from my pld. I will always try and be the best I can be, we can always become a better tank.

Goodluck on Excal, I'll still be finishing burtgang before starting mine.

[Zilong]

Isn't the recently added <stpt> command bypasses gear blinks anyway?

[Hyriu]

Yes

[Zilong]

Well, no excuse to not gear blinks even as tank now then...

Chalk it to the retard mages from this point on if it ever become an issue.

[Meat]

<stpt> is overrated, it should allow you to tab through

[Grey Jorildyn]

I wish it worked with distance plugin too >.>

[Kenji]

Breezed through this thread, Thought it could use a different mage perspective.

IMO, the argument to blink sounds a lot like trying to push any possible blame off to the mage for a death. If a tank can hold hate and stay alive long enough to be kept alive by a healer, then all is good.

And I seriously cannot believe that getting a third party program to be the answer, in this age of trojans, hacks, and accounts stolen. I refuse to trust any third party program. Lastly, there is always the possibility SE will have a brainstorm and tweak the game to detect 3rd party programs, and then I can kiss goodbye to my account.

No thanks.

<stpt> and <stal> are a partial solution, but they make a mage less flexible. I've long been using <stpc> in my cure macros, and using F1-F6 to target a party member on the fly. It also allows me to heal anyone, even those outside my party/alliance. Like most mages, I've grown so used to it, that switching will cause a large drop in speed and efficiency.

And I have no macro spaces free, unless I duplicate my healing set into another book. But even if I did that, the style would throw me off each time I switched back and forth.

So, my point is, if a tank can tank just fine without blinking a lot, why should they? Are you that worried you're gonna die if you don't swap 2 pieces of gear every second?

Relax, blink less, have some trust in your teammates, and they'll have trust in you. Your fate, ultimately, is in the hands of your healers. So ask yourself, if you really want to piss them off. And how much campaign you want to do to get that buffer back, because you were eating R1s all the time.

[Neosutra]

So if a mage can land slow/paralyze with no mnd, there is no need to use a mnd build to make the fight go smoother. Right? Will it make or break the fight if they dont? Or will it just make the fight slightly smoother and be something a good mage should be doing?

There is no need for melee to use WS/TP builds, right? Or will the extra 5-10% damage from that melee help the fight go down faster?

Having that extra shield skill on ichi recast could mean the difference between getting that shadow up right after a bad AoE that accidently wiped the half the alliance. Having lower recast on utsu and flash recast will just help the tanks build and maintain hate better, and take less damage over time. And having a solid emnity build will only help, both in reaching the hate cap, and ensuring you stay as close to it as possible. But most importantly, it is about doing your job the best way possible. Laziness, and targeting excuses, are never a valid excuse for sub par performance.

Just because you "get the job done" now, why not do it better? RMT can "get the job done" on just about everything in the game. Surely you're better than RMT?

I have a dozen people that range from full time whms to "oh, sure i can come that job" guys, and not one ever has a problem keeping up with healing/buffing, and thats w/o any added programs. I really cant believe you guys are that bad at a job, that the fresh lvl75 whm friend I invited this week can do it on his first event. Really, there is no excuse.

[Kenji]

Neo, please stop the false analogy.

There is no detriment to swapping to a MND set for paralyze.

There is a detriment to swapping gear as a tank.

Thus, the analogies don't fit.

[Neosutra]

No, there is NO detriment. Targeting is NOT a valid excuse.

You can argue that hate mechanics may lead to decreased performance results at cap, but "my mages cant target" is NOT a valid reason, -ever-.

Get it out of your head. One of the main points of this thread is seperating the valid and invalid excuses to not blink. Targeting is not it.

[Kenji]

No, there is NO detriment. Targeting is NOT a valid excuse.

You can argue that hate mechanics may lead to decreased performance results at cap, but "my mages cant target" is NOT a valid reason, -ever-.

Get it out of your head.

And we live in a world where everyone is always at the top of our game, giving 110% all of the time, with no mistakes, ever. And we'd rather work against our mages, then consider working with them. If they don't live up to my personal standards, then they are scum.

Seriously, the game isn't hard. If you're feel fragile enough that the whole group will fail because you didn't swap, then I think you do have problems. Most people can kill shit just fine, and not sweat it, without blinking.

Person A and B do the same job.

Person B puts out 50% more effort than Person A. Yet there is no real noticable difference in quality, and the end result is the same. Who is more efficient?

Relax, man. Not every mob is AV.

And note that I don't say blinking is bad. Some is fine. Blinking every .5 seconds isn't needed tho. People were tanking shit as PLD/WAR long before most of this gear was even available.

And I'm sure mages will be eager to join an LS where they are forever blamed for every tank death.

[noblemountain]

And we live in a world where everyone is always at the top of our game, giving 110% all of the time, with no mistakes, ever. And we'd rather work against our mages, then consider working with them. If they don't live up to my personal standards, then they are scum.

Seriously, the game isn't hard. If you're feel fragile enough that the whole group will fail because you didn't swap, then I think you do have problems. Most people can kill shit just fine, and not sweat it, without blinking.

Person A and B do the same job.

Person B puts out 50% more effort than Person A. Yet there is no real noticable difference in quality, and the end result is the same. Who is more efficient?

Relax, man. Not every mob is AV.

And note that I don't say blinking is bad. Some is fine. Blinking every .5 seconds isn't needed tho. People were tanking shit as PLD/WAR long before most of this gear was even available.

And I'm sure mages will be eager to join an LS where they are forever blamed for every tank death.

some of you people take this shit way to seriously. when has he said that he's blinking every .5 seconds? neo takes shit too far with his analogies, then that makes it ok for you to immediately come back with something just as asinine. i blink...not a "ton" but on every macro that needs it. could i get away with not adding that extra enmity/haste to flash...probably...but i don't have too, so why would i not be the best i can be?

i have never died from not catching a cure at a critical point or ever had a whm/rdm/sch/wtfever say they couldn't target me or complain. i don't do any HNMs...just do sky/nyzul/salvage/dynamis/limbus...but i like maximizing my potential as a tank/co-tank. i just can't fathom how this is even a discussion at this point.

[Neosutra]

As noble said, I, nor any tank in my LS, has -ever- died from not getting a cure due to blinking. Using proper gear swaps doesnt make it "impossible to target someone", and it is equally as silly to say you will lose a fight due to this, as it is to say you will lose a fight for not blinking. Targeting is -not- a valid excuse not to blink.