Starting, running, and maintaining an Endgame Linkshell

[Syntex]

So I started playing again with some friends and 2 out of the 4 of us have had some decent endgame experience mainly with Dynamis and Sky with some lesser HNM Experience(no kings or wyrms).

Now since we are all starting up again the topic of running our own shell has come up but I am a bit conflicted on if that is the best idea.

What I would like to know is from people who have ran a shell in the past or who are sack holders with specific duties and not just sit on their ass because they knew the shellholder(which seems to be quite common).

I am looking at the actual management side of this and the public relations and human resources side of making a shell, keeping it together, and pushing it to become a successful. Some other things that would be nice to see is how to fairly distribute loot, how to handle "problematic" linkshell members, how to motivate people to become better at their class without saying they're bad, how to recruit people and see if they are what the linkshell is looking for ect ect.

These are the things that need to go smoothly in order for a LS to work but are rarely talked about and in general these things apply to real life situations as some of the best leaders I have known have been managers for companys or head supervisor for human resources ect.

So with that in mind what does it take to made a successful shell?

[Valisk]

So with that in mind what does it take to made a successful shell?

A bad ass bot.

[isladar]

There are a thousand different means and styles and systems to approach managing a group of people for any kind of goal. The only thing that I can truly say that will effect ALL of the concerns you mention is your capacity to communicate.

If you speak your intent now, it can't be questioned later. Talking to someone the instant their behavior becomes problematic, instead of waiting until you're so irrationally irritated that all you can do is hate them with ever fiber of your being. Being straightforward with what you see as your goals. Explaining what you want, and how you mean to get it. Asking for input. Making judgment calls based on that. Being prepared to be wrong.

There's no single flawless system to make an LS a totally unbiased environment. You're dealing with people, people's schedules, disparate personality traits, and the totally random factor of drop rates. Someone will always be disappointed. The best system takes that disappointment and has avenues for people to get up and try again.

Honestly, all I can emphasis is communication. It is the magical thing that makes discussion instead of arguments.

[Syntex]

A bad ass bot.

I really hate that being successful means resorting to this but I would be denial if I said you were wrong.

And as far as communication goes I believe it is very important but I would still like to hear from other LS leaders to get an idea on how they handle said situations to kind of open of the field for the different approaches that can be taken.

[ubermonkey]

Be prepared to admit you're wrong. Don't be afraid to maintain that you're right either though. Recruit a couple of trustworthy officers and learn to delegate. There's nothing wrong with a little bias. There's no such thing as a perfect system. As long as you're successful, people won't bother about the minimal biases.

[Korremar]

There are a thousand different means and styles and systems to approach managing a group of people for any kind of goal. The only thing that I can truly say that will effect ALL of the concerns you mention is your capacity to communicate.

If you speak your intent now, it can't be questioned later. Talking to someone the instant their behavior becomes problematic, instead of waiting until you're so irrationally irritated that all you can do is hate them with ever fiber of your being. Being straightforward with what you see as your goals. Explaining what you want, and how you mean to get it. Asking for input. Making judgment calls based on that. Being prepared to be wrong.

There's no single flawless system to make an LS a totally unbiased environment. You're dealing with people, people's schedules, disparate personality traits, and the totally random factor of drop rates. Someone will always be disappointed. The best system takes that disappointment and has avenues for people to get up and try again.

Honestly, all I can emphasis is communication. It is the magical thing that makes discussion instead of arguments.

Oh god this. Everything in this post is 100% truth. Our shell nearly got torn apart a bit over a week ago, over mostly petty bullshit and misunderstandings. Communication is key, and being forward and prompt about correcting issues is extremely important. Letting little things build over and over is the worst thing you can do.

[Grey Jorildyn]

I will address this, although I have a feeling it is going to blow up into something horrible and we will want to kill it until it dies before page 3.

Maybe it's because I'm from Titan, land of the DKP, but I would highly recommended a points system. In my lengthy experiences, the moment you try to play god with items and presume you have some kind of omnipotent ability to quantify someone's efforts in your mind, you are headed in a very bad direction. This is, undoubtedly the best method to maintain the obtaining of gear in a large linkshell. Points will allow you to quantify everyone's efforts in some fashion, and everyone earns the same points for attending the same event. There really aren't any catch-22s with this and in the end, it's gonna save you a lot of headache, especially if you let members place their own value on those points and letting them spend what they want for a given item through something like a silent bidding system.

Now if you're shooting for something small, maybe 20-30 people, need before greed might be the way to go, but it's going to be very dependent on how others view you and your ability to be fair. You're not going to make everyone happy, so go into this knowing that. I could go into the pros and cons of this forever, but my personal opinion is that if you have even one desire, or just one friend in that linkshell that you know well, you will go into this system lacking objectivity from the start. If you're ready to be under fire for every decision you make though, go for it.

As for botting--I've never been in support of this. Never have, never will be. Do it at your own risk, but don't be surprised if your members are devoured by the greed that comes with the "success" of getting so much gear from cheating.

Good luck.

[cdgreg]

tldr but like 15 hours a day in-game

[Syntex]

Before I quit wow and came back about 2 weeks ago we had a similar problem with our guild with the 'point' system.

The problem happens when good players use their points how they are suppose to and constantly have low points due to getting new upgrades every chance they get, then you have the one guy, who comes to sky once a week doesn't use food, gets lost and dies in sky, and is generally badly geared and just plays bad.

He saves all his points and when something like defending ring drops, he wants it even though he is a MNK.

At what point do you say point do you say "no your not getting it" then what was the point of the point system?

Although I do agree that points is a good benchmark for who gets what, I think its a combination of both that and loot council to decide who gets what so that the gear goes to the most dedicated which should be shown by points sorta.

[Tormentormike]

Have a point system that has job priority also. My LS has hands down, imo of course, the best system ever. Points are right out in the open, you know what you get for doing what, and you can see everyone else's points so you can also see if there is bias (i.e. you do the same event and stay for the same time as someone else, and they get more points for it).

Everyone gets points, and there's an active bidding sheet for all the items with events we do. You got points, spend them to your hearts content, and make your own price for an item. It needs to be maintained though so there is no abusing and lootwhoring, i.e. no you can't bid points on jobs you don't even play at all, and mismatched items i.e. PLD wanting to lot a Novio.

The leader decision system is always retarded. If you do this, your destined to failure. You can lead and get some people you don't like. Either talk to them about their problem and work something out or bite your tongue. Just because you're the shell holder, you're not the greatest thing ever created. Be willing to listen to others and be democratic, and you'll find you have a more friendly environment and more people willing to stay.

Honestly, who wants to stay with the LS leader who is a nazi and wants to get gear for himself only, and will throw you a bone every now and then and demands the world of you? Sadly, there are people out there who just brown nose there way through end game, but if you have any dignity, you'll be open to talking to people and hearing their opinions.

[Furionstormrage]

The problem happens when good players use their points how they are suppose to and constantly have low points due to getting new upgrades every chance they get, then you have the one guy, who comes to sky once a week doesn't use food, gets lost and dies in sky, and is generally badly geared and just plays bad.

He saves all his points and when something like defending ring drops, he wants it even though he is a MNK.

At what point do you say point do you say "no your not getting it" then what was the point of the point system?

Not trying to be funny or a jerk, but you get rid of him. If he's badly geared, plays badly, can't get around areas, what good is he doing your LS?

There are plenty of competent people playing, you have no reason to drag yourself and your LS down by keeping players of this capacity around. (I've learned the hard way, I'm a nice guy and I don't want to kick anyone, but at some point he's going to do something really stupid/jackass and that's going to upset your members, justifiably so, into leaving)

As for DRing and other items that obviously have a larger benefit for certain jobs/roles, you can place a job priority on items if you wish, that's completely up to you.

[_chuchu]

You will need lots of patience. Having access to a PC/laptop is essentially a must if you're doing anything by points. Being organized also helps. Marked maps kick some serious culo because most people have no idea where they are going. I was happy to see the map of Garden/Palace in sea for the first time and try to learn my way around because Darwinism does kick in here as it thwarts away most of the competition. Movement speed in sea and anywhere is so much win except dreamland dynamis in some situations.

Isladar and other posters above summed it up pretty well because members will find ways to hold you accountable for the way things are done in the linkshell. The more you reveal the ways and means to members, the better. Be open to sensible suggestions as there are many ways to get things done as proven by the existence of this forum lol. No one knows everything when they start playing this game, but if you look for clues or seek help you can know many things quickly. The search function is awesome on forums too :D

Edit: Setting the best example and being as fair as possible without breaking your own rules helps. Hardly anyone in their right mind questions someone who walks the walk. If members drop whatever they are doing to gather for HNMs, then sackholders should be held up to the same standard.

[Knightfell]

Not a LS leader (Such a thankless job at times) but only input I could give is take care of your mages/support, I'm lucky enough to be in an LS were I actully *like* the people I work with, and the leadership is very fair, giving both mages and melee toys.

Only reason I bring this up is that some people get a hard on for Sky, and seem to focus entirly upon getting whatever melee items they want, leaving mages somewhat shafted.

Sorry if this comes off as bitter, just previous bad experainces with people who had the mindset that BLM only exists to get them the gear they want, f*ck what the person playing the job might want/need.

[Phla]

When I was a sack in some little shells we worked on a point system. We had all the points out in the open, the list was updated after every event, with points being added like this: Person's points, then the added value. Everyone could see what was being added, it'd look like this: 193(+5), everyone could see their previous points, and how the added value wasn't being changed from person to person. Nobody really complained, people knew where they stood, and items were distributed accordingly. There never was a huge item drama that caused problems, but then again, we never did big HNMs that would cause some drama. Mostly just a Limbus / Dynamis / Sky / Sea shell.

Oh, and make sure you have a solid set of rules that people won't find stupid loopholes in.

[Rasantath]

when i was helping lead a shell some time ago we also started the shell with a points system. it was not bad, had a job priority system that let each member setup primary, secondary, and tertiary jobs. this let us setup a points premium for lotting rights on items, which had their own set of job priority on them. the only thing it lacked was a points expiration system, to stop people from just saving up hundreds of points so they could get that one big item they wanted when it dropped, screwing other people who could have got more use out of it. (no, not bitter, not at all...)
the other thing it brought us was a way to gauge member activity. we could tell who all actually showed up at events on a regular basis, and who were the loot whores. it also gave us a way to reward people for their activity by using how many points had been accumulated to do a payout from the linkshell bank on a regular basis.
if i was to build a new system today it would have 2 jobs priority levels, 2 item priority levels, and have a 2 month point expiration system.

[Hellfury]

Discipline, Discipline and more discipline!

Clear and fair leadership, practice what you preach.

As has been mentioned earlier, communication is key, make sure you have done what you can to keep your group updated on plans, strategies, schedules etc.
Sure there's going to be fuckups, but try to ensure that they're not due to your lack of preparedness.
Edit#1: And clarity! for the love of fuck, be clear and precise, when you provide information, be sure to provide the information NEEDED, people can't make good decisions when they have 20% of the information they need to know what to do. I cannot emphasize this enough, information needs to be accurate, precise, and contain SUFFICIENT DETAIL to act upon. You've probably all heard the saying "Garbage In, Garbage Out".
Edit #2: When you have critical information going out, it rarely hurts to make sure that people confirm that it's received, when I headed dynamis, and we needed to cs stun a boss, I would always make a point of making sure that the cs stunners confirmed that they had registered their instructions (same for other things like SV etc.). (We tried to rotate jobs when feasible, so we'd have to often designate "new" people doing things)

Decide on your leadership philosophy, are you going to be the standard "top-down" sole person in charge for your own reasons and interests like the classical old school business models, or will you go for a more modern approach with "first amongst equals" (preferably without the negative connotation) or style yourself more as the administrator on behalf of the shell members.

There's a lot of approaches to leadership, I'd be here all day if I was going to go at it, but one of the most important aspects:
If you're going to be the leader, no matter what approach to leadership you take, you need to remember that ultimately, YOU are responsible, you might've seen the desk sign from Truman (I think it was?) with "The Buck Stops Here". Nothing screams poor leadership than the leadership making poor excuses and avoiding taking responsibility.
You need to establish that regardless of wether you're the autocrat or the "secretary", the final decision, and the ultimate responsibility rests with you.

etc.

[Syntex]

Well on the topic of "fair" what are your opinion about the LS Leader and/or sack holders having a slight advantage to obtaining gear and/or more priority but not being defaulted gear?

I have been in a few shells where the Leader took priority over the others but most of the time it was because they put in a lot more effort to run things, take time to recruit, keep points up-to-date and precise, make sure people know the fights and all the other crap that is associated with being a leader, also on that same note sackholders who have similar responsibilities and do put more effort fourth?

Another thing I must add, do you think tanks should have priority on gear? For example a RDM tank getting dalmatica over the support RDM? Should it come down to straight points? Should it be priority on them? Should sackholder/shellholder have priority?

I do believe in the point system but I guess laying down some ground rules would help the system stay in check.

This is a system I have been thinking about using for a while now but never been in a position to put it into use, its basically a point system where you attend each event and you get x points, for HNM camps its for every 15 minutes your there(those are the window intervals right?) you get points, in order to use your points its based off your attendance for the past 2 months so if you had 90% attendence you get to use 90% of your points(but they are all still there), if you had 5% attendance but the most points, say 100, you can only spend 5(5%) until you raise your attendance this way people who whore points and don't show up for 2 weeks can't come back and win something. Also I think every item should be worth X amount and if you have a lotta points items will cost 50% of your TKP(Tiamat kill points ) or the X value whatever is more. Doing this will keep the people who whore points under control and curve the loot points to balance it more.

The 50% points is better then losing all your points since you still should have a good amount after so that one week you got 500 points isn't rewarded the same as the week you got 100 because you have 250 and 50 left over 0 in both situations.

What do you guys think of the above system and giving some(not all or default) priority to the people who are doing 2x as more work then others just to make the shell successful?

[wop]

The leader decision system is always retarded. If you do this, your destined to failure.

Not true, as proven with the existance of my shell.

I view my shell as a cunning business plan.
I set targets and certain objectives to be achieved in a timeframe, and push the entire LS towards it.
Have periodic officers meeting, to track on how each objective is going, appraisal + feedbacks, and finally evaluation on how to better ourselves.

Everything I do, is in the best interest of the LS, hence LS should have 100% confidence in following my lead to success and victory.

[Foustian]

One question you asked that I didn't see a lot of response to is what to do about members that don't really know how to play their jobs. I'm not the best at telling people they suck without sounding like an asshole, but if you can manage to do that, and they actually listen, problem solved. If they don't, and just give you the "I've been 75 for 2 years, etc." excuse, then there's pretty much no hope for them. They either think they know how to play their job, or they don't care that they don't, and either way nothing you can done is going to make them better. Your only choices are to put up with them and hope they don't fuck anything up, or get rid of them.

On that note, I'll reiterate what some people have said. Do not be afraid to kick people. A single person can completely destroy a fight if they don't care about doing what they're supposed to be doing. These people will hurt your shell way more than they will ever help it. For example, melee in Ouryu that attack him after he lands and has been slept. I've seen this happen more than once, and it almost always results in 1 dead tank, and can result in a complete wipe if the rest of your group is not prepared to deal with it.

And have a clear and established system of rules. I cannot stress that enough. It doesn't necessarily have to be simple, but it needs to be organized and it needs to be visible. Don't create a situation in which you can be accused of making up rules on the spot, or which members can use to take advantage of you.

[Tormentormike]

Not true, as proven with the existance of my shell.

I view my shell as a cunning business plan.
I set targets and certain objectives to be achieved in a timeframe, and push the entire LS towards it.
Have periodic officers meeting, to track on how each objective is going, appraisal + feedbacks, and finally evaluation on how to better ourselves.

Everything I do, is in the best interest of the LS, hence LS should have 100% confidence in following my lead to success and victory.

There's no doubt in my mind that your LS is successful in what they do, and more power to you for having it that way. However, as soon as I saw it being described as a business plan, that turned me off immediately. Maybe it could be worded differently, but whenever some people treat the game like "you need to be on for xxx event or there will be repercussions", said people really need to take a step back and look at how they're ultimately treating a "game". (I use this term lightly at this point.)