Israeli Air Strike

[Kuya]

If what you say is true for the majority of the cases, then something has to give. Aside from that, doesn't that also warn your target of the attack?

[Meat]

If what you say is true for the majority of the cases, then something has to give. Aside from that, doesn't that also warn your target of the attack?

We usually aren't after people, it's normally munitions and other equipment, not so easy to move

[Senoska]

100:1 kill ratio, sounds good to me.

[Churchill]

Does the US military have a policy of attacking their targets even if there are numerous civilians nearby? It was my understanding that the US avoided doing so as often as possible. You know, that the US doesn't condone killing innocent people just to get at their targets, at least not if they can help it.

the us doesn't drop bombs in cities, ie, iraq doesn't see a lot of munitions used, afghanistan does

the israeli government feels it can bear the scrutiny because time and time again the US has proven it won't stop them, and they know that the only people who will question jews are muslims, and they just kill them.

[Kuya]

We usually aren't after people, it's normally munitions and other equipment, not so easy to move

What is your opinion on why this many civilians die there so quickly?

[Elvis]

Statistics of daily life for civilians of both sides under the Occupation (Second Intifada til the present).

B'Tselem - Statistics

About B'TSELEM - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories was established in 1989 by a group of prominent academics, attorneys, journalists, and Knesset members. It endeavors to document and educate the Israeli public and policymakers about human rights violations in the Occupied Territories, combat the phenomenon of denial prevalent among the Israeli public, and help create a human rights culture in Israel.

B'Tselem in Hebrew literally means "in the image of," and is also used as a synonym for human dignity. The word is taken from Genesis 1:27 "And God created humans in his image. In the image of God did He create him." It is in this spirit that the first article of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights states that "All human beings are born equal in dignity and rights."

As an Israeli human rights organization, B'Tselem acts primarily to change Israeli policy in the Occupied Territories and ensure that its government, which rules the Occupied Territories, protects the human rights of residents there and complies with its obligations under international law.

B'Tselem is independent and is funded by contributions from foundations in Europe and North America that support human rights activity worldwide, and by private individuals in Israel and abroad.

B'Tselem has attained a prominent place among human rights organizations. In December, 1989 it received the Carter-Menil Award for Human Rights. Its reports have gained B'Tselem a reputation for accuracy, and the Israeli authorities relate to them seriously. B'Tselem ensures the reliability of information it publishes by conducting its own fieldwork and research, the results of which are thoroughly cross-checked with relevant documents, official government sources, and information from other sources, among them Israeli, Palestinian, and other human rights organizations.

[Lurking Badger]

Seems you have forgotten how many US missiles "missed" their targets and hit civilians in Iraq (or wherever). Now, you don't send in missiles unless you know exactly where you are sending them unless you are A) very unprofessional or B) lying (trying to hit a military resource hid among a group of people).
I don't know what to think in Israel's case, probably C) evil.

[Churchill]

A lot of the reporting saying civilians died because of the US across the globe is made up, though I guess you can take the tribal leaders opinion on it, he's not affiliated with the Taliban or anything.

It happens, but it's not very common and the gain must be worth the risk not only to US interests but the local populace's interests as well.

[test123]

The United States of America blocked peace talks today, giving thumbs-up for a full invasion. Isreal has in the last 2 months been getting shipments of precision bombs and other weapons. US owned weapons and ammunition is now beeing used against Hamas.

Most european countries condems the invasion. The US ignores critic from NATO countries for supporting the invasion.

[Beckwin]

"The United States late Saturday blocked approval of a U.N. Security Council statement calling for an immediate cease-fire in the Gaza Strip and southern Israel and expressing concern at the escalation of violence between Israel and Hamas."

Diplomats say US blocks UN statement on Gaza - Yahoo! News

*insert conservative bawwwwing about that darn UN trying to tell us what to do*

this shit happens all the time when it comes to Israel/Palestine- we are the muscle that allows Israel to avoid any peace treaty or ceasefire that it doesn't want to participate in.

[TheShadyMan]

Isreal: Where religious and economic interest collide.

[Zilong]

Well, this is clearly a change we all believed in.

[Faris]

fuck man, that video was terrible....those people don't deserve this.

Its either you're mentally challenged, or you know Israel is wrong, but you're just a stubborn douchebag.

you..just..can't...be right..about this

[Zilong]

They've been on the downward spiral since they killed jesus I guess.

[Elvis]

The American International School in Gaza was blown up. IDF says it was a launch-pad for Qassam rockets! Ironic thing is that this school was targeted by radical Islamic groups as well. Israeli terrorism = Palestinian terrorism!

This is the second school that's been targeted/destroyed as a 'terrorist haven'. I think they should just nuke Gaza and say Gaza was a terrorist haven.

Other 'terrorist havens':

- 112 houses have been destroyed completely and approximately 3,500 houses damaged;

- 7 mosques have been completely destroyed from direct air strikes;

- 38 private industrial and agricultural enterprises have been completely destroyed;

- 16 schools have been damaged;

- 9 CBO offices were completely destroyed;

- 8 private vehicles were destroyed;

- 16 governmental facilities were destroyed.

[Elvis]

From an Arabic blog that translates news items in the region to English:

Missing Links Blog: After meeting Condi, Israeli officials start planning for a forced mass evacuation of Palestinians from northern Gaza: Israeli TV. :

[...]The televised report cited high-level security sources as saying Barak intends to plan for the removal of tens of thousands of Palestinians from the northern Gaza Strip, namely from the region that the resistance uses for the launch of these rockets, and to move them toward Gaza City and to confine them there. The Israeli reporter added that Barak is turning to legal advisers in the Defence Ministry, in order to obtain legal authorization for the removal of the Palestinian civilians. Barak is also asking Professor David Friedmann, minister of Israeli Affairs [Justice Minister], who supports toughening of penalties on Gaza to end the launching of rockets, in order to obtain his authorization to begin execution of the plan.

The reporter said that once [or if] the plan becomes operational, it would start immediately: In the first stage there would be a drop of leaflets advising residents to leave their homes, in addition to special radio announcements in Arabic directed to the residents, and in the event residents didn't obey the warnings, the occupation army would begin bombing the inhabited areas, in order to compel them to leave their homes and go to Gaza City.

The Council [of Ministers], which met yesterday after the departure of the American Secretary of State Condoleeza Rice, stressed that they did not agree with previous army planning for [only] a partial end to the Qassam rockets. And the Council decided to target the leaders of Hamas, political and military alike, and to desroy every symbol of Hamas authority in the Gaza Strip.

-----My Comments:

In the historical context of this fuckstorm, this so-called 'evacuation' is just a euphemism for ethnic cleansing.

Israel clearly wanted to topple the democratically-elected government of the Palestinians.

Context:

**From The Independent:
Johann Hari: The true story behind this war is not the one Israel is telling - Johann Hari, Commentators - The Independent

'Yuval Diskin, the current head of the Israeli security service Shin Bet, "told the Israeli cabinet [on 23 December] that Hamas is interested in continuing the truce, but wants to improve its terms." Diskin explained that Hamas was requesting two things: an end to the blockade, and an Israeli ceasefire on the West Bank. The cabinet – high with election fever and eager to appear tough – rejected these terms.'

**List of Qassam rocket attacks - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(15 deaths, 433 injured in 8 years) (Gaza mortar attacks: 8 deaths in 8 years)


**Hamas Official Blames Rockets On Collaborators : NPR

- I think Hamas is either lying here or telling a misleading/half- truth. The rockets were being fired by a related group of Hamas but not Hamas directly as some have reported. In any case, I think it was them.


**IDF admits to overestimating Gaza rocket severity, but warns worst may be yet to come - Haaretz - Israel News

**Israeli minister warns of Palestinian 'holocaust' | World news | guardian.co.uk

The last article mentions that this operation was being planned back in February which confirms Egypt was a collaborator. Egypt was reported to have told Hamas security that Israel was not going to strike only a week to days before the attack. This is in addition to them closing their borders. Egypt, like Jordan and Saudi Arabia, is run by a corrupt leadership that takes it's orders from us and not it's own people (see: Mass world-wide protests).

All in all, since the ground assault has begun and it's pretty much on the way out, Hamas was wrong to target civilian areas and continue their rocket attacks. However, I can *understand* why they would keep fighting since for all this time Gaza has been turned into a virtual prison. It was deemed a humanitarian crisis for months and months while Israel refused to allow reporters/medicine/food/water in except for their own supplies (both inadequate in stock and infrequent in deliveries).

The response to the rockets was vastly disproportionate. The motive was to destroy Hamas as a political entity - not as a military threat. If the latter were true it would have happened a long time ago.

The fact that Israeli elections are coming up only bolsters this contention. 85% of the Israeli population support the attacks. The political incentive was obvious. Israel possesses a vastly superior army [4th strongest in the world] (Hamas isn't an army). Netanyahu can use the pretext of 'terrorism' as a justification for the invasion/attack. Doing so will only be a win-situation.

You end up sequestering the Palestinians from their political entity. Further fragmenting the society and carrying out a mini-ethnic cleansing. Destroying the political unity and the resistance while at the same time garnering an election win for the hardline Zionists (which basically means everyone).

With full US support, this invasion, coupled with the fact that soon Egypt will have to open up the Sinai for newly-created-refugees, will precipitate a transition from mini-to-full ethnic cleansing over time.

Further proof/examples in recent times of similar tactics can be found in the Israel-Lebanon 2006 War (1000 Lebanese civilians killed, 4 million cluster-bomblets [densest bombing of it's kind in history] dropped by Israel in Southern Lebanon, US blocked cease-fire agreements until the very end of the fighting when sufficient damage had been done by Israel):

Interview with the former Chief of Staff of the Southern Command, Zvi Fogel
:

In 2006 Brig. General (res.) Fogel said in the state TV station Channel One:
“…the more we are able, with reasonable humaneness, to pressure the population so that they goes out of their houses and put pressure on Ismail Haniyyeh and on Abu-Mazen, the closer we’ll get to a situation in which, in the end …"

Ayala Hasson (journalist): How will you do that? In theory it sounds simple.

Fogel: It’s also simple in practice. By the way, we did it in Lebanon. We took 300,000 residents in Lebanon and drove them from south Lebanon to the gates of Beirut. We can do that here too.
(…)

Fogel: Ayala, it is not nice, but if we want to solve the problem and to stop the qassams then I assume that that is what we must do. Ayala, if a qassam fell not in the western Negev but – God forbid – in Herzliya, or in Ramat Hasharon or Raanana, I think that even you would change your tune.”

[Beckwin]

so here's a question: who would accept the deaths of 74,000 Irish Catholics from 67-01 as being ok, an understandable necessity of the conflict?

[Lee]

Apparently, that raw video posted has had its title changed. Really curious as to what happened actually - maybe it's a form of censorship by Israel supporters? Or maybe it was a deceptive propaganda move by Hamas supporters claiming that their own mistake from 3 years ago was an Israeli Airstrike.

[Elvis]

When I posted the video, it's name was "IDF blah blah January 1st. 2009."

The tags were even different than they are now. Although, I don't see a reason to post a fake video (or rather, a misleading video) when there are plenty of raw news footage showing the damage specifically on children/civilians. ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWqU9aRwF5I / NSFW http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fgeqrs5ePLU)

Not to mention the statistics of civilians killed thus far (66 children, 37 women, and the UN isn't even counting male Palestinians). If the LiveLeak vid is propaganda, that'd be very petty, considering the facts on the ground.

Israel IS saying there isn't a humanitarian crisis though. Livni, specifically, has been saying this.

The UNWRA (United Nations Workers' Relief Agency) says otherwise though.

YouTube - UNWRA says Gaza situation is catastrophic - 04 Jan 09

Here's an article talking about the PR campaign during the assault thus far:

Special spin body gets media on message, says Israel - The Guardian, UK:

Israeli officials have also enjoyed a clear edge with coverage. An Israeli foreign ministry assessment of eight hours of coverage across international broadcast media reported that Israeli representatives got 58 minutes of airtime while the Palestinians got only 19 minutes. Speaking for the Israeli military, Major Avital Leibovich said: "Quite a few outlets are very favourable to Israel, namely by showing [it] suffering ... I am sure it is a result of the new co-ordination."

[...]One of the challenges of Israel's media offensive has been to counter the disturbing images of Gaza in the conflict. "In the war of the pictures we lose, so you need to correct, explain or balance it in other ways," said Aviv Shir-On, foreign ministry deputy director-general for public affairs. "Support doesn't mean the world is standing behind us, but it does mean people understand what we are doing and why."

[archibaldcrane]

The United States of America blocked peace talks today, giving thumbs-up for a full invasion. Isreal has in the last 2 months been getting shipments of precision bombs and other weapons. US owned weapons and ammunition is now beeing used against Hamas.

Most european countries condems the invasion. The US ignores critic from NATO countries for supporting the invasion.

But now today, after the invasion, the U.S. is pressing for a ceasefire...

US joins press for truce as Gaza onslaught goes on - Yahoo! News

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israel seized control of high-rise buildings and attacked houses, mosques and smuggling tunnels as it pressed its offensive against the Gaza Strip's Hamas rulers on Monday, while the U.S. joined a stream of countries pushing for a cease-fire.