Israeli Air Strike

[Elvis]

Can someone explain to me why we back Israel all of the time?

Isn't it kind of a bad idea to be permenantly allied with a foreign nation that is batshit crazy?

Excerpt from George Washington's farewell address:

So, likewise, a passionate attachment of one nation for another produces a variety of evils. Sympathy for the favorite nation, facilitating the illusion of an imaginary common interest in cases where no real common interest exists, and infusing into one the enmities of the other, betrays the former into a participation in the quarrles and wars of the latter without adequate inducement or justification.

It leads also to concessions to the favorite nation of privileges denied to others, which is apt doubly to injure the nation making the concessions by unnecessarily parting with what ought to have been retained, and by exciting jealousy, ill will, and a disposition to retaliate in the parties from whom equal privileges are withheld; and it gives to ambitious, corrupted, or deluded citizens (who devote themselves to the favorite nation) facility to betray or sacrifice the interests of their own country without odium, sometimes even with popularity, gilding with the appearances of a virtuous sense of obligation, a commendable deference for public opinion, or a laudable zeal for public good the base or foolish compliances of ambition, corruption, or infatuation.

[Obev]

Can someone explain to me why we back Israel all of the time?

Isn't it kind of a bad idea to be permenantly allied with a foreign nation that is batshit crazy?

I can't come up with an answer to this that doesn't make me come across as a raging anti-semite.

[Plow]

Wow, you don't even know about the situation there, you talk smack about the Palestinians as if you know all the facts. The Israelis have been blockading Gaza and killing its people directly and indirectly at a 4:1 ratio for like 8 years now or more, and the Palestinians told them to stop like a million times. So now that they don't have a choice but to defend their people and issue a counter attack to all their illegal occupations, house demolitions, and blockades against them, you think its not right to do so?

What would you have them do, just do nothing while watching the Israelis bulldoze their house, lay siege to their cities, or deny their children food and medicine? The people have a responsibility to fight their oppressors after all.


See how it goes both ways?

See how you had to exaggerate *every* single claim you made there for it to "go both ways?"

It's retarded on both sides, but Israel is guarding what they have "possession" of, if they wanted to wipe them out this conflict would've ended decades ago.

The point if this was to remind them of that.


It's seriously beyond me how people can honestly believe one of the most powerful military countries in the world, supported beyond any question or doubt by the most powerful in the world desperately wants to crush one of the weakest and most ill-suited to fighting groups in the area and has just sat there not doing it for decades.

[0ni0n]

Can someone explain to me why we back Israel all of the time?

Isn't it kind of a bad idea to be permenantly allied with a foreign nation that is batshit crazy?

Mostly it's because Israel has a very powerful lobby group, which always plays up the importance of jewish constituents in the US, especially those in Florida. Losing florida usually means defeat in a presidential election. Also a lot of jews here are rich and influential, and they will back the state of Israel no matter the causes solely because it is the only jewish state and their supposedly "home". In their mind, Israel simply can't do evil. When it does then it must have a reason.

[Elvis]

See how you had to exaggerate *every* single claim you made there for it to "go both ways?"

It's retarded on both sides, but Israel is guarding what they have "possession" of, if they wanted to wipe them out this conflict would've ended decades ago.

The point if this was to remind them of that.


It's seriously beyond me how people can honestly believe one of the most powerful military countries in the world, supported beyond any question or doubt by the most powerful in the world desperately wants to crush one of the weakest and most ill-suited to fighting groups in the area and has just sat there not doing it for decades.

Are you directing that post at Muffins?

He's not saying enough actually.

It's a ratio of 5:1 in terms of civilian deaths. It's a ratio of 10:1 in terms of deaths of children.

This is on top of the daily life of living under a military occupation.

No, it's not, nor has it EVER BEEN, a symmetrical conflict. For the simple fact that it is Israel occupying Palestine, not Palestine occupying Israel.

One of many human rights groups, this is one of the mainstream Israeli NGOs:
http://www.btselem.org/English/index.asp

This is not a complicated conflict to understand. The coverage has always been biased here in the US and our leaders have never been an honest broker for peace.

One such study of media bias, NY Times vs. Haaretz (leading Israeli paper), conducted by Harvard University:

http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/..._conflict.html

[Faris]

It's seriously beyond me how people can honestly believe one of the most powerful military countries in the world, supported beyond any question or doubt by the most powerful in the world desperately wants to crush one of the weakest and most ill-suited to fighting groups in the area and has just sat there not doing it for decades.

Its not as easy as you think, look it up.
There are things to consider, economies, relationships, laws. This is politics baby.

They're trying to drive them out.

[Plow]

Are you directing that post at Muffins?

He's not saying enough actually.

It's a ratio of 5:1 in terms of civilian deaths. It's a ratio of 10:1 in terms of deaths of children.

This is on top of the daily life of living under a military occupation.

No, it's not, nor has it EVER BEEN, a symmetrical conflict. For the simple fact that it is Israel occupying Palestine, not Palestine occupying Israel.

One of many human rights groups, this is one of the mainstream Israeli NGOs:
B'Tselem - The Israeli Information Center for Human Rights in the Occupied Territories

This is not a complicated conflict to understand. The coverage has always been biased here in the US and our leaders have never been an honest broker for peace.

One such study of media bias, NY Times vs. Haaretz (leading Israeli paper), conducted by Harvard University:

Muting the Alarm over the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict - Harvard - Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs

It's like a fucking 5th grade class where the teacher reassigned the seats halfway through the year, and some little guy didn't want to give up his old seat so he keeps fucking with the tough guy that got it now, and the little dude keeps pinching and poking the big guy, who keeps punching him every time he does it, and neither one of them can go any farther because the little guy will get killed, the big guy would get jumped by all the little guy's friends, and the teacher can't do shit because anything he did would just start a huge-ass brawl and get the parents all pissed off at him.

[Kael]

Mostly it's because Israel has a very powerful lobby group, which always plays up the importance of jewish constituents in the US, especially those in Florida. Losing florida usually means defeat in a presidential election. Also a lot of jews here are rich and influential, and they will back the state of Israel no matter the causes solely because it is the only jewish state and their supposedly "home". In their mind, Israel simply can't do evil. When it does then it must have a reason.

That's completely disappointing. No offense to any jews here.

But seriously, we shouldn't be showing this type of favoritism to a country so aggitating in a region known for having almost non-stop wars. It's a shame, but unfortunately not unbelievable that they can just buy off a country with vote-ing power from people who should be voting for the best interests of the United States not one of it's allies.

[Cephius]

Can someone explain to me why we back Israel all of the time?

Isn't it kind of a bad idea to be permenantly allied with a foreign nation that is batshit crazy?

I wouldn't call them batshit crazy, they are defending territory they own, after all. It's just the fact that the conflict has been going on for so long and costs so many lives is why you hear so much about Isreal's retaliation.

As for why the US backs them, there are about three thousand conspiracy theories about it, Jews controlling the government, shit like like that. I don't believe any of it. I think the real reasons are economic and strategic. Economically, Isreal is pretty much the only strong ally the US has in or near the middle east, and is an integral staging point to defending US interests in the area (read: Oil).

Furthermore, Isreal's military is far and beyond more advanced than others in the area. Isreal has air superiority over every country in the region, making it a critical installation and military base for US forces that operate in the area.

[Olo401]

Can someone explain to me why we back Israel all of the time?

Isn't it kind of a bad idea to be permenantly allied with a foreign nation that is batshit crazy?

It's all about the money changers. AIPAC greases the palms of American politicians constantly.

Not to mention prime real estate along the Mediterranean Sea.

[Cephius]

Mostly it's because Israel has a very powerful lobby group, which always plays up the importance of jewish constituents in the US, especially those in Florida. Losing florida usually means defeat in a presidential election. Also a lot of jews here are rich and influential, and they will back the state of Israel no matter the causes solely because it is the only jewish state and their supposedly "home". In their mind, Israel simply can't do evil. When it does then it must have a reason.

That's pretty offensive to me. It sounds like something Fox News would report. These are not facts. Jews are no more or less important than anyone else. Support of Isreal is not based on how much Jews lobby Washington. Jews are not the only ones who are rich and influential. And as for them backing their own home state... wouldn't you? When terrorists attacked on 9/11 didn't you want the country to defend itself? How do you seriously make this statement and say it like it's fact?

[Elvis]

There's a perceived collusion of interests but supporting any nation to the extent that we support Israel is obviously hurting us in the ME.

In terms of peace, the Israelis have always had the upper-hand and capacity to make peace.

The reason they don't is because the Palestinians have nothing to offer them. The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians is intrinsic to the Zionist ideology.

Furthermore, no one will stand up to the US. We are the number 1 superpower in the world. Israel is the 4-5th military power in the world.

(This is why the notion of Iran going to war with Israel is such a fucking lie.)

Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, etc. ; absolutely NO country will fight Israel because they'd incur the wrath of our army. Hence why the people fighting Israel are militias and terrorist groups.

It will be endless guerrilla warfare until Israel (not anyone else) makes peace. Stop building illegal settlements on Palestinian land. Stop colonizing Palestine. Stop using indiscriminate force and release the over 10,000 Palestinians in your jails (1000 of which are held without any documentation).

[Kael]

I wouldn't call them batshit crazy, they are defending territory they own, after all. It's just the fact that the conflict has been going on for so long and costs so many lives is why you hear so much about Isreal's retaliation.

What's with the blockade then? Is that what started this most recent situation?

As for why the US backs them, there are about three thousand conspiracy theories about it, Jews controlling the government, shit like like that. I don't believe any of it. I think the real reasons are economic and strategic. Economically, Isreal is pretty much the only strong ally the US has in or near the middle east, and is an integral staging point to defending US interests in the area (read: Oil).

Furthermore, Isreal's military is far and beyond more advanced than others in the area. Isreal has air superiority over every country in the region, making it a critical installation and military base for US forces that operate in the area.

This makes a bit more sense, thank you for that.

Isn't that air superiority and military might mostly because of the weapons and equipment we sell/provide them with? Couldn't we setup something in India or Saudi Arabia?

But then I guess that'd set off all the Christians too? @_@

[Muffins]

See how you had to exaggerate *every* single claim you made there for it to "go both ways?"

It's retarded on both sides, but Israel is guarding what they have "possession" of, if they wanted to wipe them out this conflict would've ended decades ago.

The point if this was to remind them of that.


It's seriously beyond me how people can honestly believe one of the most powerful military countries in the world, supported beyond any question or doubt by the most powerful in the world desperately wants to crush one of the weakest and most ill-suited to fighting groups in the area and has just sat there not doing it for decades.

If Israel were to act in such a way as to eradicate and exterminate the people in Gaza, no one, not even the U.S., would support what would essentially be an Israeli-perpetrated Holocaust against an innocent people. Israel would have no friends if they acted in the way they deeply desire. Israel is already testing the patience of much of the world and, for lack of a better cliche, is being seen as having overspent their stay.

The occupation, the "resettlement", the blockade, and the airstrikes are already far beyond what many would consider "proportionate". The fact is that the only reason Israel has gotten away with everything it has perpetrated in the region is because of the U.S.'s veto power in the U.N. over resolutions condemning its hostilities. The end of the cease fire was basically a green light for Israel to flex its military muscle. Remember, these are the same people that were eager, ready, and were looking for and waiting for a green light to go after Iran.

I wouldn't call them batshit crazy, they are defending territory they own, after all. It's just the fact that the conflict has been going on for so long and costs so many lives is why you hear so much about Isreal's retaliation.

As for why the US backs them, there are about three thousand conspiracy theories about it, Jews controlling the government, shit like like that. I don't believe any of it. I think the real reasons are economic and strategic. Economically, Isreal is pretty much the only strong ally the US has in or near the middle east, and is an integral staging point to defending US interests in the area (read: Oil).

Furthermore, Isreal's military is far and beyond more advanced than others in the area. Isreal has air superiority over every country in the region, making it a critical installation and military base for US forces that operate in the area.

Zionism. Don't forget Zionism. The desire for a Jewish Homeland or State has been a strong one for centuries. The Holocaust - which was an enormous tragedy - proved to be the greatest opportunity to allow for the creation of such a state. But "ownership" is debatable.

[Elvis]

That's pretty offensive to me. It sounds like something Fox News would report. These are not facts. Jews are no more or less important than anyone else. Support of Isreal is not based on how much Jews lobby Washington. Jews are not the only ones who are rich and influential. And as for them backing their own home state... wouldn't you? When terrorists attacked on 9/11 didn't you want the country to defend itself? How do you seriously make this statement and say it like it's fact?

Lobbying is a part of the American political process. I don't know what he meant specifically but there IS an Israel Lobby like it or not.

It's mostly comprised of Jews naturally. All are obviously Zionists. There are also Evangelical Christians and Neocons.

America facilitates 'identity politics', hence why we have groups like the ADL (Jewish) and NAACP (Blacks).

It's not racist or anything to point out the obvious. This is how things work.

[Plow]

The occupation, the "resettlement", the blockade, and the airstrikes are already far beyond what many would consider "proportionate". The fact is that the only reason Israel has gotten away with everything it has perpetrated in the region is because of the U.S.'s veto power in the U.N. over resolutions condemning its hostilities. The end of the cease fire was basically a green light for Israel to flex its military muscle. Remember, these are the same people that were eager, ready, and were looking for and waiting for a green light to go after Iran.

Amazing how you can remember all that and not remember Israel sitting back and taking it like a bitch for the good of the world when Hussein bombed the shit out of them in attempt to force them into "what they so deeply desire."

[Elvis]

What does Hussein have to do with Palestine? (I'm not aware on the first Gulf War - Israel connection)

[Faris]

Its really gotten beyond ownership now.... I think who owns can also share (Australia, South Africa..oh god those are really bad examples), the whole fucked up part is that israel doesn't want palestinians at all...and please, that holocaust thing, is somewhat exaggerated.

Edit: Sadam tried to get Israel out in an attempt (cant remember the year exactly) but failed because there was no support from neihbouring countries

[Cephius]

Isn't that air superiority and military might mostly because of the weapons and equipment we sell/provide them with? Couldn't we setup something in India or Saudi Arabia?

But then I guess that'd set off all the Christians too? @_@

We do sell them a ton of weapons and equipment, more than most. It certainly has a lot to do with their military might, but they have their own ruling government and they have implemented everything we've given them effectively and developed a very strong air force. The Isreali army and naval forces are good, but their Air Force is their strongest asset. Whether that is entirely due to us is debatable, but having air superiority over the enemy is critical in any armed conflict.

As for India and Saudi Arabia... those are uneasy allies at best. The conflict in Afghanistan has really strained relations with them, and they're much more concerned with Pakistan than they are with anyone else. Saudi Arabia is an economic partner at best, any kind of military partnership would get severe backlash from their neighbors.

[Plow]

What does Hussein have to do with Palestine? (I'm not aware on the first Gulf War - Israel connection)

Hussein bombed the shit out of Israel, essentially at Palestinians' behest, attempting to get Israel to retaliate, which would draw Iran, etc., and start (turn the first gulf war into) the war the Arab extremists really want against the Jews and the Americans, to put it way too bluntly.

Israel sat back and took it.