Israeli Air Strike

[Neosutra]

Wait, so, it's fair to lose things that belong to you if someone stronger takes them from you? Apparently Neosutra does not understand what society was founded on.

Im thinking more of the unification of china via the conquering of the clans and ending thousands of years of clan waring. However in the middle east that never happened, and it still continues. Why not let them finish the fight finally and let it work itself out.

If you have 2 groups of people that are willing to die to defend a set of conflicting morals or for a spot of land that neither want to give up, then im sorry, but 1 will be removed or be forced to adapt.

As good as it feels and as "right" as it is to apply social morality and civilized injustice to this conflict, this goes beyond both.

[Elvis]

Except one thing Neo - the Zionists do not want to assimilate the Palestinians into Israeli society. No Israeli government or population throughout the generations has/will ever accept a One-State solution. The whole point of Zionism is a Jewish State or ethno-religious majority.

If this were the case, it would have been proposed by now.

As for the lack of unification.. Clearly, there was once a pan-Arab movement. It died.

It's within American/British interests to keep the ME fractured and subjugated. Hence, the family dictatorship in Saudi Arabia. Why do we support them while we condemn Iran? Because Saudi Arabia gives us the best deals on oil and it is the best/most efficiently extracted (AFAIK) source of oil on the planet.

We also support a corrupt dictator in Egypt. We support a corrupt dictator in Jordan.

The Arab world is full of puppet kings/presidents/etc.

Our ME policy is no different from our Latin America policies or our Southeast Asian policies. We're like any other empire throughout history.

[Neosutra]

So in a system that cannot work itself externally due to outside influencers, cannot work itself out physically (superior aggressor absorbs inferior), and will not work itself diplomatically, what do you do?

[Elvis]

Guerrilla warfare can go on indefinitely.

I don't see any Arab State going to war with the US. The US - if anything - will go to war with them.

Right now, the ONLY independent Arab State in the Middle East is Iran. Iran consistently defies the West. China and Russia are showing visible economic interest in Iran at the moment. Russia - I'm sure - wants to counter-balance US power in the region.

Russia sells Iran a good chunk of it's weapons from what I recall. China and Iran are discussing building a new pipeline.

I don't see either of those countries coming to Iran's aide BUT it could happen down the road as the relationship develops.

Russia is even thinking of building a military base in Iran.

As for the Palestinians? We - us normal folk - can actually do something about that. We can boycott/divest from Israel just like campaign waged against Apartheid South Africa.

Israel is a very small company that's highly dependent on outside trade. As Naomi Klein says, boycotting Israel is not a dogma, it's a tactic. It can actually work. Although, that's assuming you agree with me. I want a 2 State solution in accordance with international law. The Arab league has proposed such a plan. I think that would be a first step towards peace.

But this won't happen if no pressure is applied. Israel made peace with Egypt because Egypt was a threat. Palestinians have no army; no navy; no air-force; etc. They are a civilian population with a crudely armed militia serving as their representatives. They have zero political clout.

[Neosutra]

So what is their claim on the land w/o any political clout?

Not be antagonistic, I really dont know much about their conflict. Im trying to care Q.Q.

[Elvis]

International law prohibits the acquisition of territory by war. The World Court ruled that the settlements and walls within the OT were illegal. It is also illegal under international law to transfer your population to another peoples' land - i.e., colonization.

The Palestinians have the facts on their side. They have the law on their side.

It's true that in 1948 the Arab world attacked Israel but I encourage anyone here to tell me how the Partition Plan was fair towards the ethnic/religious majority.

As to the history of the conflict?

A Synopsis of the Israel/Palestine Conflict

That's a good place to start.

One caveat of course - I am on the Left. I make no attempt to hide that. I believe I'm right, but there are counterarguments. So I can just tell you my perspective. There are others.

[Neosutra]

A bit of a biased link I would say. Really hard for me to find some clear info on this subject, Ill keep searching.

[Elvis]

A bit of a biased link I would say. Really hard for me to find some clear info on this subject, Ill keep searching.

Every source is biased to a degree. Just compare the facts. Ignore the tone/etc.

And as I said, it's a place to start. You'll figure out your own perspective on your own but that's going to involve reading stuff you may not think is particularly 'scholarly'-looking.

EDIT:

Here's the United Nations summary of the conflict:

http://www.un.org/Depts/dpa/ngo/history.html

You have to realize that reading books is your best bet to understanding the history. The internet is going to be full of biased sources. There's also documentaries on the conflict as it is today but even documentaries have a POV. You just have to read a lot of different points of views and figure things out yourself.

[Meat]

It will just happen slowly. Look at any map of Israel-Palestine from before the 48' war to now. It's just like a map of colonial America.

Find me a map of Palestine for one, not of Egypt, Syria and Jordan...of Palestine.
Then find me a map showing territory that wasn't acquired via wars they initiated.

[Elvis]

I'm going to need some time to answer that question and it's getting late. You're asking me to rehash a lot of history.

As to the question of maps? You don't even believe a Palestinian people exist. They are simply remnants of the Jordanians/Egyptians who got hung out to dry.

So I don't think any answer will suffice if your stance is that they are an 'illegitimate' people. Or to use your terminology: 'red-headed step-children of the Arab world.'

I'll answer the rest of those questions later when I have the time/patience. There's a lot of history to go through. I can give you an answer off the top of my head for the 67' War but I'd rather look for the sources (books).

Sidenote:

Article 51 of the UN charter states that you have the right to self-defense against an ARMED ATTACK. What happened in 67' was not an act of defense. This is just more Israeli propaganda. The same sort of propaganda that had people believing for decades, that the Arabs fled their homes in 48' because their leaders were telling them to do so over the radio.

UN Resolution 242 states - and watch the language - that it is inadmissible to acquire territory by war. It makes no distinction between defensive or aggressive war.

That's the legal side. I'll get to the rest later.

[Neosutra]

I highly doubt -everything- put out against palestine is propaganda. This isnt one sided.

[Mugekuge]

The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine on 1920:


http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1...ag007q0et2.gif

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9...verviewml1.jpg


Modification of that mandate in 1923:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7...ag007r0vn6.gif



First map, yellow part was what U.N. decided for israel (without consulting palestine people, this was illegal imho), green was palestine, and green with white was zones israel took over 47-49.

Second map is i think arabs attacking in 48, when arab nations tried to take over israel, last is actual map.


http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8...lestinasx4.jpg


This link has good info:

http://www.palestinefacts.org/pf_maps.php

[Kiro]

Hot damn.

[Mugekuge]

I just want to add U.N. is fucking useless, when they do something they end screwing shit up, and when is needed for them to do something they just dont anything.

Before 48, that was a peaceful region, well with some normal conflicts, like any area of the world has had (hell 3 years before was end of second world war), but no how is now, people like to repeat "but that region has problems for like 2 thousands years" and that's not true at all.

[Elvis]

I highly doubt -everything- put out against palestine is propaganda. This isnt one sided.

Everything? Of course not. But I believe there is a substantial amount of Zionist propaganda when it comes to this conflict. I have used that word sincerely when I felt it was needed.

In regards to this specific use of the word (for which you felt the need to comment) - yes, the notion that Arab leaders, during the 48' War, were radioing the Palestinian masses to leave their homes (thus, resulting in the mass exodus; 800,000 people) is a lie. It's propaganda. I wouldn't use such a strong word unless I was absolutely sure.

There is no proof. None. More importantly, and yet ANOTHER example of Israeli propaganda, is the language frequently used in reference to the exodus. That the Palestinians 'left' their homes. I'll get to this in a sec.

First some context. What sort of radio technology did the inhabitants of the region have during that period in time?

From a study conducted by Prof. Douglas A. Boyd - Professor in the Department of Communication and the School of Journalism and Telecommunications, University of Kentucky -
entitled, Hebrew-Language Clandestine Radio Broadcasting During the British Palestine Mandate :

Of course, during the 1940s there was no FM radio broadcasting in the Middle East. Medium- and long-wave receivers were the norm, but most home sets were also capable of receiving short-wave transmissions. This was because of the long-established practice of listening to European news from the BBC and other stations. A survey done in 1943 by social science faculty members at the American University of Beirut showed that among Arabs surveyed in Palestine, 87% had sets capable of receiving medium-, long-, and short-wave signals (Dodd et al., 1943). Partner (1988 ) states that Jewish homes in Palestine in the mid-1940s had a higher percentage of short-wave receivers than did Arab homes.

This state of affairs proved to be very helpful to those operating clandestine stations; they all transmitted on the short-wave band, most on frequencies between 45 and 50 meters. Although primarily used by international broadcasters to reach listeners far away from transmission sites, short-wave transmission was ideal for Palestine clandestine operations because a relatively low power output could reach a large area.

Additionally, short-wave transmitters did not need the extensive antennae and grounding facilities required for medium-wave, thus making them both portable and relatively easily hidden.

The definitive work on this specific issue is by Benny Morris - Professor of History at Ben-Gurion University of the Negev in Be'er Sheva, Israel.

I'll refrain from paraphrasing, here's where the following passages come from:

The Right To Distort History (by Michael Lopez-Calderon) - Media Monitors Network

Benny Morris, in a January 1986 article for Middle Eastern Studies, cited a 1948 report from the intelligence service of the Israeli Defense Forces entitled The Emigration of the Arabs of Palestine in the Period 1/12/1947 – 1/6/1948. In this report – declassified in 1985 – the IDF listed three primary causes for the departure of 391,000 Palestinians: 1) "Direct, hostile Jewish operations against Arab settlements"; 2) "The effect of our hostile operations on nearby settlements … especially the fall of large neighboring centers"; 3) "Operations of the dissidents." The "dissidents" were the violent Zionist terrorist organizations, the LEHI, Stern Gang, and Urgun.

Their "operations" consisted of a number of atrocities against Palestinian villagers, with the massacre at Deir Yassin being the most notorious. These findings became the basis for Morris’s seminal work, The Birth of The Palestinian Refugee Problem, 1947-1949 (Cambridge, 1987).

Morris made it clear that a combination of worsening circumstances, military defeats, and physical threats generated the bulk of the Palestinian flight. Nowhere does he cite evidence for the mythological "broadcasts" because such evidence simply does not exist.

To this figure, the report’s compilers add the operations of the Irgun and Lehi, which "directly (caused) some 15%... of the emigration". A further 2% was attributed to explicit expulsion orders issued by Israeli troops, and 1% to their psychological warfare. This leads to a figure of 73% for departures caused directly by the Israelis. In addition, the report attributes 22% of the departures to "fears" and "a crisis of confidence" affecting the Palestinian population. As for Arab calls for flight, these were reckoned to be significant in only 5% of cases[...]

Source: http://mondediplo.com/1997/12/palestine

Another devastating criticism of the Arab radio broadcasts that allegedly goaded Palestinian flight is found in Christopher Hitchens’ essay, "Broadcasts," in the book by Edward Said and Christopher Hitchens', Blaming The Victims (Verso, 1988 ).

Hitchens cited official IDF reports, declassified in 1985, that indeed documented Arab broadcasts, but with an interesting twist: the radio broadcasts exhorted Palestinians to remain in their homes and villages, in part because the invading Arab armies would otherwise be impeded by refugee-clogged roads.

The BBC, along with an American listening post, monitored all Middle East broadcasts throughout 1948, Hitchens reported. Not one of these broadcasts ever told Palestinians to flee. Even Israeli broadcasts in Hebrew, and several Jewish newspapers at the time, reported the Arab broadcasts that ordered Palestinians to remain where they were.

Hitchens' essay and other background information:

Broadcasts

Background information and cross-references.

Quick summation:

Ben-Gurion and other Zionists as well as their apologists perpetuated this lie that the Arabs caused the mass exodus - the Nakba. The truth was readily available since the beginning but wasn't mainstream until the release of the official IDF intel reports. To this day, Israel insists that the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians in 48' was the result of the Arab escalation towards war. They insist it just happened naturally as a product of the conflict. Total bullshit.

Israel inflicted the ethnic cleansing. Israel is responsible for the refugee problem today in which 5 million Palestinians are stuck in limbo. Unfortunately, these Palestinians will never be able to return to their ancestral homes because of the political reality. None of this should be shocking. The expulsion of the native population of Palestine was INTRINSIC and in-built to Zionism.

Ben-Gurion himself, later went on to say:

Let us not ignore the truth among ourselves ... politically we are the aggressors and they defend themselves... The country is theirs, because they inhabit it, whereas we want to come here and settle down, and in their view we want to take away from them their country. ... Behind the terrorism [by the Arabs] is a movement, which though primitive is not devoid of idealism and self sacrifice.

Source: (Simha Flapan, Zionism and the Palestinians, p.141)

Moving on. The extent to which we've only seen one perspective is far-reaching. Declassified documents such as the IDF report cited in the two passages above demystify establishment claims.

I've posted some studies conducted by Harvard comparing the NYTimes to Israel's Haaretz newspaper. The study concluded that the latter was more truthful.

There's plenty of other reports/books/documentaries/etc. that deal JUST with the perception of the Israel-Palestine conflict.

This is not a complicated conflict IMO; it's just voluminous. You develop your own perception as you go a long. I believe I'm right - just as anyone else would - and I try my best to provide evidence. I certainly don't think my views are irrefutable. I've seen convincing counterarguments.

Ok, so before I go into my post in-depth let me preface my remarks:

Find me a map of Palestine for one, not of Egypt, Syria and Jordan...of Palestine.
Then find me a map showing territory that wasn't acquired via wars they initiated.

First, I don't believe I need to write a tl;dr post to answer this question but I'm going to for other reasons. It's an opportunity to provide some context to the wars/etc.

If I take your question at face-value my equally superficial answer is sufficient: google 'map of Palestine'. The larger question I'm sure you want me to respond to is: Is there a Palestinian people?

If Palestinians do not exist and are merely the stubborn remnants of the people who left for what is now Jordan/Syria/Egypt then they are therefore have no claim to the land they currently live on, right?

The question is preposterous. There are several ways to dismantle this assertion.

Let's just stick to the legal recognition of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people. It would logically follow, that the Palestinians have to first EXIST as a people to have such rights.

UN Resolution 3376

[...]Recognizing that the problem of Palestine continues to endanger international peace and security,

1. Reaffirms its resolution 3236 (XXIX);

2. Expresses its grave concern that no progress has been achieved towards:

(a) The exercise by the Palestinian people of its inalienable rights in Palestine, including the right to self-determination without external interference and the right to national independence and sovereignty;

(b) The exercise by Palestinians of their inalienable right to return to their homes and property from which they have been displaced and uprooted;

[...]

I'll move on to the 48' War later but end with these quotes from David Ben-Gurion - Israel's first Prime Minister and one of the most important figures of the Zionist movement and recent Middle Eastern history.

I do not see partition as the final solution of the Palestine question. Those who reject partition are right in their claim that this country cannot be partitioned because it constitutes one unit, not only from a historical point of view but also from that of nature and economy[...]

Indicating the tactical nature of his support for partition he stated the intention that "after the formation of a large army in the wake of the establishment of the [Jewish] state, we shall abolish partition and expand to the whole of the Palestine." (Tom Segev, "One Palestine Complete: Jews and Arabs under the British Mandate", Metropolitan Books, 14 November 2000, p. 403)

In a letter he wrote to his son in 1937, regarding the Zionist rejection of the Peel Commission partition-plan:

No Zionist can forgo the smallest portion of the Land Of Israel. [A] Jewish state in part [of Palestine] is not an end, but a beginning ... Establishing a [small] state will serve as a very potent lever in our historical effort to redeem the whole country.

Source: (Benny Morris, Righteous Victims, p. 138 ; with my paraphrasing)

BTW, you guys should be able to find these sources on Google-Books. Most, if not all, of my sources are a couple clicks away.

More later.

[Brill Weave]

More news of Israeli military "mistakes."

Israeli forces shell UN headquarters in Gaza - Yahoo! News

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip – Israeli forces shelled the United Nations headquarters in the Gaza Strip on Thursday, setting fire to the compound filled with hundreds of refugees as U.N. chief Ban Ki-moon was in the region on a mission to end Israel's devastating offensive against the territory's Hamas rulers.

Ban expressed "outrage" over the bombing. He said Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak told him there had been a "grave mistake" and promised to pay extra attention to protecting U.N. installations. The Israeli military had no immediate comment on the bombing, which a U.N. official said injured at least three people.

Even as a top Israeli envoy went to Egypt to discuss a cease-fire proposal, the military pushed farther into Gaza in an apparent effort to step up pressure on Hamas. Ground forces thrust deep into a crowded neighborhood for the first time, sending terrified residents fleeing for cover.

Shells also struck a hospital, five high-rise apartment buildings and a building housing media outlets in Gaza City, injuring several journalists.

Bullets entered another building housing The Associated Press offices, entering a room where two staffers were working but wounding no one. The Foreign Press Association, representing journalists covering Israel and the Palestinian territories, demanded a halt to attacks on press buildings.

The army has collected the locations of media organizations to avoid such attacks.

Israel launched its war on Dec. 27 in an effort to stop militant rocket fire from Gaza that has terrorized hundreds of thousands of Israelis. Some 1,100 Palestinians have been killed, roughly half of them civilians, according to U.N. and Palestinian medical officials. Thirteen Israelis also have died.

Israel says it will press ahead with the campaign until it receives guarantees of a complete halt to rocket fire and an end to weapons smuggling into Gaza from neighboring Egypt.

Israeli envoy Amos Gilad traveled to Cairo to discuss truce prospects with Egypt, which has been serving as the key mediator. Israel also sent a senior diplomat to Washington to discuss international guarantees that Hamas will not rearm.

Israeli government spokesman Mark Regev said there was "momentum" in negotiations and Israel was hopeful that a deal on its terms was "close and attainable."

Barak, visiting soldiers on a southern base, said the fighting would continue but Israel's eyes were "also open to the possibility of winding up this operation and consummating Israel's exceptional results and accomplishments through diplomacy."

Ban, who arrived in Tel Aviv on Thursday morning from Egypt, said he was "outraged" by the attack on the U.N. headquarters.

"I conveyed my strong protest and outrage to the defense minister and foreign minister and demanded a full explanation," Ban said. He said Barak told him there had been a "grave mistake" and promised to pay extra attention to protecting U.N. installations.

The U.N. compound in Gaza had only that morning become a makeshift shelter for hundreds of Gaza City residents seeking sanctuary from relentless Israeli shelling, said a U.N. official in Gaza. He spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn't authorized to speak to the media.

But shortly after, a shell hit the school, wounding three people, the official said. Two other shells hit a warehouse housing humanitarian supplies and a U.N. parking lot, he said.

The U.N. compound houses the U.N. Works and Relief Agency, which distributes food aid to hundreds of thousands of destitute Gazans in the tiny seaside territory of 1.4 million people.

U.N. spokesmen confirmed that at least three people were wounded but said the fire and smoke engulfing the compound made it impossible to know if it had been completely evacuated.

U.N. spokesman Adnan Abu Hasna said the U.N. had given Israel the coordinates of the building and the compound was also clearly marked with U.N. flags and logos. Large stocks of food and fuel used to supply hospital and water pumps were at risk of destruction, as were valuable U.N. archives dating back to 1948, Abu Hasna said.

Hours earlier, thousands of residents had fled their homes with the advance of Israeli ground troops into Gaza City's Tel Hawwa neighborhood. Many were clad only in their pajamas, and some were wheeling elderly parents in wheelchairs, one of them with an oxygen tank. Others stopped journalists' armored cars and ambulances pleading for someone to take them to a U.N. compound or to relatives' homes.

Rasha Hassam, a 25-year-old engineer, ran out of her apartment building carrying her screaming, crying, 6-year-old daughter, Dunia.

"God help us, God help us, where can we flee?" she cried. "All I want is to get my poor child away from here. We want to survive."

Thousands of others were trapped in Tel Hawwa's high-rise buildings by the fire, too afraid to even attempt to flee.

Three shells hit the Al Quds hospital in the neighborhood, setting its pharmacy building ablaze, trapping about 400 patients and staff inside the main hospital building, said Khaled Abu Zeid, a medic inside the building reached on his mobile phone. Gunfire was also reported around the building. It was not clear how many people inside had been wounded in the fighting.

In the nearby downtown area, Israeli tanks fired shells at five high-rise buildings, Palestinian witnesses said.

Israeli defense officials said the intensified assault on Gaza City was not a prelude to a new phase of all-out urban warfare in the narrow alleyways of Gaza's big cities, where Hamas militants are more familiar with the lay of the land and Israeli casualties would be liable to spiral. The aim, they said, was to heat up the pressure on Hamas to accede to Israel's demands.

"I think Israel is seeking in the last moments to escalate the military operation to pressure the parties," said Ghazi Hamad, a Hamas official. "I don't think this will change the issues on the table."

The intensified assault on Gaza City highlighted the urgency of diplomatic efforts, the most high-profile being the arrival in the region of Ban, who was meeting with Israeli and Palestinian leaders on Thursday. Last week, the U.N. Security Council passed a cease-fire resolution that Hamas and Israel have ignored.

Ban met on Thursday with Israeli Foreign Minister Tzipi Livni and afterward put the onus on the Israeli government.

"We have some elements now in place which may allow a cease fire to come fairly soon," he told a news conference. "I hope so, but that depends on the political will of the Israeli government."

He said a full-fledged truce agreement did not have to be worked out before violence ceased.

"You can discuss terms and conditions later, my demand is to cease firing immediately," he said, acknowleging that he had come "with a heavy heart" at what he called a "difficult time for Israel."

"I'm well aware that rockets have been fired at Israeli civilians for years from Gaza," he said. "I have always condemned these as acts of terrorism and said they must cease."

Rocket fire has fallen off dramatically but not ceased and on Thursday the military reported 14 firings.

Ban will also meet with Palestinian leaders in the West Bank, where Western-backed President Mahmoud Abbas governs. He will not visit Gaza, which has been ruled by Hamas since it expelled forces loyal to Abbas in June 2007. The international community does not recognize Hamas' government.

Egypt has been pressing both sides to accept a 10-day truce while details of a more comprehensive accord can be worked out. Under the Egyptian proposal, Hamas would back off its demand that Israeli troops withdraw from Gaza and borders be opened immediately as part of any halt in fighting.

Instead, Israeli forces would remain in place during the 10-day period until details on border security are worked out, Egyptian and Palestinian officials close to the talks told The Associated Press. They spoke on condition of anonymity to provide details of the closed-door negotiations.

A senior Israeli official said it was far from certain Israel would accept the deal. He said Israel was afraid Hamas would not respect a cease-fire as long as troops were in Gaza.

In Damascus, Hamas deputy chief Moussa Abou Marzouk told Al-Arabiya television that Hamas demands an immediate cease-fire, to be followed by Israeli troop withdrawal and the opening of the border for humanitarian aid.

A long-term truce would be discussed later, Marzouk said.

Nice shootin' there Tex.

[Kuya]

Isn't this like the second refugee camp they bomb? How are these people supposed to feel safe when they're bombed everywhere they go?

[0ni0n]

1000+ Palestinians have perished and more than 5000 were injured. Am I supposed to believe what IDF has been saying in every interviews that they aim to minimize civilian casualty in their retaliatory attacks? My ass.

[Elvis]

They'll end up becoming suicide bombers.

The cycle will repeat itself.

Israel occupies/steals Palestinian land. Israel steals resources (water/natural gas/etc.). Indiscriminately kills Palestinian children at a ratio of 10 to 1 and civilians at a ratio of 5 to 1. While getting away with crime after crime - only 40% of complaints by Palestinians of abuses committed by the IDF reach the Military Police Criminal Investigation Division (MPCID) AND even then, only 6% lead to indictments.

This is how you create and perpetuate terrorism. Terrorism is used as a pretext for continued military occupation and acquisition of Palestinian land.

[Xno Kappa]

What the fuck was I talking about lmao.