Israeli Air Strike

[Elvis]

White Phosphorus

http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/1...m825jl6wh8.jpg

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/7...phorousnu2.jpg

NSFW

Spoiler: show

http://img294.imageshack.us/img294/1071/wpchildmd8.jpg


http://img292.imageshack.us/img292/9...rusbonerx5.jpg

[Meat]

The League of Nations Mandate for Palestine on 1920:


http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1...ag007q0et2.gif

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9...verviewml1.jpg


Modification of that mandate in 1923:

http://img297.imageshack.us/img297/7...ag007r0vn6.gif



First map, yellow part was what U.N. decided for israel (without consulting palestine people, this was illegal imho), green was palestine, and green with white was zones israel took over 47-49.

Second map is i think arabs attacking in 48, when arab nations tried to take over israel, last is actual map.


http://img403.imageshack.us/img403/8...lestinasx4.jpg


This link has good info:

Maps of Historical Israel, Palestine, and the Region

0 of those maps are of Palestine, the 1st was of a British colony and by 48 they had already squandered their Independence away to other countries

[Elvis]

*Says you.

They are - as a matter of fact- Palestine. At the least, explain yourself.

[Meat]

I'm going to need some time to answer that question and it's getting late. You're asking me to rehash a lot of history.

As to the question of maps? You don't even believe a Palestinian people exist. They are simply remnants of the Jordanians/Egyptians who got hung out to dry.

So I don't think any answer will suffice if your stance is that they are an 'illegitimate' people. Or to use your terminology: 'red-headed step-children of the Arab world.'

I'll answer the rest of those questions later when I have the time/patience. There's a lot of history to go through. I can give you an answer off the top of my head for the 67' War but I'd rather look for the sources (books).

Sidenote:

Article 51 of the UN charter states that you have the right to self-defense against an ARMED ATTACK. What happened in 67' was not an act of defense. This is just more Israeli propaganda. The same sort of propaganda that had people believing for decades, that the Arabs fled their homes in 48' because their leaders were telling them to do so over the radio.

UN Resolution 242 states - and watch the language - that it is inadmissible to acquire territory by war. It makes no distinction between defensive or aggressive war.

That's the legal side. I'll get to the rest later.

Aren't they? the same people who loved their independence and sovereignty so much that they didn't hesitate to hand it over in the blink of an eye to other nations. hi 2u green line

[Elvis]

I'll wait til you read my reply which I posted earlier this morning.

I'm not even sure what your argument is at this point -

That there are no Palestinians? That Palestine never existed? Or both?

I'll write up my opinion on the 48' War later. Your wording is very misleading. It is true the Arabs attacked Israel in 48' but the tension was obviously building up over time in the previous years. There's a wealth of literature that gives context to the mobilization for war.

More later.

[Maxxthepenguin]

Isreal was always wrong, obviously.

[Kiro]

Obviously.

[Zilong]

I suppose this is a really bad time for a dead baby joke?

[Obev]

0 of those maps are of Palestine, the 1st was of a British colony and by 48 they had already squandered their Independence away to other countries

If we're going to deny state the right to exist based on them having previously been British colonies, we're going to have to re-draw a whole lot of maps and disenfranchise about two billion people on four continents.

[archibaldcrane]

0 of those maps are of Palestine, the 1st was of a British colony

What was that colony called? Serious question.

[Meat]

What was that colony called? Serious question.

British Mandate of Palestine

[Meat]

If we're going to deny state the right to exist based on them having previously been British colonies, we're going to have to re-draw a whole lot of maps and disenfranchise about two billion people on four continents.

No what I'm doing it on is the fact an autonomous Palestine state has ever existed, like ever. The same people screaming for their right to exist as a state gleefully gave it away in 49.

[Lurking Badger]

Since it was over 50 years ago it was not literally the same people.

[Elvis]

More cracks in the monolith!

YouTube - UK Jewish MP: Israel acting like Nazis in Gaza

[Kiro]

LOL

[Mugekuge]

The 1948 Letter of some Eminent Jews to New York Times, including Einstein:

Letters to the New York Times
December 4, 1948

New Palestine Party
Visit of Menachem Begin and Aims of Political Movement Discussed

TO THE EDITORS OF THE NEW YORK TIMES:

Among the most disturbing political phenomena of our times is the emergence in the newly created state of Israel of the �Freedom Party� (Tnuat Haherut), a political party closely akin in its organization, methods, political philosophy and social appeal to the Nazi and Fascist parties. It was formed out of the membership and following of the former Irgun Zvai Leumi, a terrorist, right-wing, chauvinist organization in Palestine.

The current visit of Menachem Begin, leader of this party, to the United States is obviously calculated to give the impression of American support for his party in the coming Israeli elections, and to cement political ties with conservative Zionist elements in the United States. Several Americans of national repute have lent their names to welcome his visit. It is inconceivable that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin�s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.

Before irreparable damage is done by way of financial contributions, public manifestations in Begin�s behalf, and the creation in Palestine of the impression that a large segment of America supports Fascist elements in Israel, the American public must be informed as to the record and objectives of Mr. Begin and his movement.

The public avowals of Begin�s party are no guide whatever to its actual character. Today they speak of freedom, democracy and anti-imperialism, whereas until recently they openly preached the doctrine of the Fascist state. It is in its actions that the terrorist party betrays its real character; from its past actions we can judge what it may be expected to do in the future.

Attack on Arab Village

A shocking example was their behavior in the Arab village of Deir Yassin. This village, off the main roads and surrounded by Jewish lands, had taken no part in the war, and had even fought off Arab bands who wanted to use the village as their base. On April 9 (THE NEW YORK TIMES), terrorist bands attacked this peaceful village, which was not a military objective in the fighting, killed most of its inhabitants � 240 men, women, and children � and kept a few of them alive to parade as captives through the streets of Jerusalem. Most of the Jewish community was horrified at the deed, and the Jewish Agency sent a telegram of apology to King Abdullah of Trans-Jordan. But the terrorists, far from being ashamed of their act, were proud of this massacre, publicized it widely, and invited all the foreign correspondents present in the country to view the heaped corpses and the general havoc at Deir Yassin.

The Deir Yassin incident exemplifies the character and actions of the Freedom Party.

Within the Jewish community they have preached an admixture of ultranationalism, religious mysticism, and racial superiority. Like other Fascist parties they have been used to break strikes, and have themselves pressed for the destruction of free trade unions. In their stead they have proposed corporate unions on the Italian Fascist model.

During the last years of sporadic anti-British violence, the IZL and Stern groups inaugurated a reign of terror in the Palestine Jewish community. Teachers were beaten up for speaking against them, adults were shot for not letting their children join them. By gangster methods, beatings, window-smashing, and wide-spread robberies, the terrorists intimidated the population and exacted a heavy tribute.

The people of the Freedom Party have had no part in the constructive achievements in Palestine. They have reclaimed no land, built no settlements, and only detracted from the Jewish defense activity. Their much-publicized immigration endeavors were minute, and devoted mainly to bringing in Fascist compatriots.

Discrepancies Seen

The discrepancies between the bold claims now being made by Begin and his party, and their record of past performance in Palestine bear the imprint of no ordinary political party. This is the unmistakable stamp of a Fascist party for whom terrorism (against Jews, Arabs, and British alike), and misrepresentation are means, and a �Leader State� is the goal.

In the light of the foregoing considerations, it is imperative that the truth about Mr. Begin and his movement be made known in this country. It is all the more tragic that the top leadership of American Zionism has refused to campaign against Begin�s efforts, or even to expose to its own constituents the dangers to Israel from support to Begin.

The undersigned therefore take this means of publicly presenting a few salient facts concerning Begin and his party; and of urging all concerned not to support this latest manifestation of fascism.

(signed)

Isidore Abramowitz, Hannah Arendt, Abraham Brick, Rabbi Jessurun Cardozo, Albert Einstein, Herman Eisen, M.D., Hayim Fineman, M. Gallen, M.D., H.H. Harris, Zelig S. Harris, Sidney Hook, Fred Karush, Bruria Kaufman, Irma L. Lindheim, Nachman Maisel, Symour Melman, Myer D. Mendelson, M.D., Harry M. Orlinsky, Samuel Pitlick, Fritz Rohrlich, Louis P. Rocker, Ruth Sager, Itzhak Sankowsky, I.J. Schoenberg, Samuel Shuman, M. Znger, Irma Wolpe, Stefan Wolpe

New York, Dec. 2, 1948

[Elvis]

Check out this:
http://www.normanfinkelstein.com/art...?pg=11&ar=2510

Israel's finest!
YouTube - Palestinians Are Animals, IDF Soldier Says

Refusenik!
YouTube - Israeli Air force captain on BBC

[Zimi]

Elvis -
Your source on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict consist a large amount of wrong information, took me just the first few lines to see this.
Here a little lesson for u guys about Zionism from someone who learned the subject (not trying to be arrogant or anything, but i'm sick of those lies and misinformation):
"Known as Zionists, they represented an extremist minority of the Jewish population"
First, the Zionist movement were not a minority at all, and were not extremist.
Herzl, the "Father of Zionism" was the first to define the "Jewish problem" (it is only cynical that the same term was later used by Hitler, with entirely different definition).
Zionists argued that the Jewish population could not exist within the nations of Europe they based this argument on the pogroms the Jewish had to deal with- especially in western Europe (for those of you who are little lose on time, this was in 1800~).
The solution they had in mind was to create a Jewish country, preferably on Israel territory (Israel is the correct name of this piece of land since this name was used before the newer name "Palestine", "Israel" was used in the biblical time while "Palestine" was used later- Roman Empire time).
Herzl himself said that to accomplish this goal they need to get a charter ("license") from the states the controlled the area (the "Ottoman Empire" back then, before WW1), in order to get this charter Herzl met German diplomats (German was in good relation with the Ottoman Empire) and succseed to schdule 2 meetings with the Ottoman Emperor, both meeting failed.
Herzl himself criticized the Jewish people who came to Israel in this period of time.
After WW1 the Britain got a mandate over the land of Israel, allowed Jewish to come (with some limitations) and expressed a will to create "national home for the Jewish people" (those are the exact words, the word country was not used).
This prove that the Zionist organization was not extremist, it followed the laws and used diplomatic methods achieve it's goal.

Another huge mistake your source mentions is that the Arab armies didn't invade Israel territory on the 48 war, you can realize this from viewing those 2 maps:
File:1948 arab israeli war - May15-June10.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...stine_1947.png

Another mistake is that this war stared BEFORE Israel declared itself as a country, it was started after the United Nations Partition Plan for Palestine was rejected by the Arab (1947), the declaration of Israel took place only in 1948.

[Zimi]

Elvis- Ever heard to Godwin's law?
Cant believe people actually compering Nazi Germany to Israel, that is an act of incredible stupidity.
Did Jewish in Germany send launched rockets at Germans? Did they send suicide boomers to coffee houses? Did they tried to kill Germans?
Did Nazi Germany send food to the Jewish in the ghetto? Did they leave a portion of territory so they will be able to live there?
Do the Israel soldiers gather the Palestinian population and executed them village after village?

[Zimi]

wrote the same msg twice, dont know why =p