Israeli Air Strike

[Correction]

There is not a single country in the world which exports weapons to the Hamas movement.

Uh, what?

[guartz]

Seems like Netanyahu is going to form a right wing coalition and take control.

lol, that's the only Israeli U.S never liked.

[Kuya]

Heard that Likud was attempting to form a coalition government with Kadima and Labor party, but i did hear that Livni said she would refuse if Netanyahu did not add a plan of some sort for a two state solution (har har har). The worst thing that could happen is Yisrael Beiteinu if Kadima doesn't join, but i'm not too sure if Netanyahu would really ally with someone as extreme as Lieberman. In any case, they're all going to let more settlers invade the West Bank.

[guartz]

what was his campaign platform? "Bomb them all!"?

[Kuya]

And "Prove your loyalty to Israel or we'll take your citizenship away".

[Elvis]

Lieberman is a fascist. Netanyahu is increasing the settlements.

I think the plan, is to 'relocate' the Palestinians to Jordan. Lieberman and his ilk want the Israeli Arabs to 'swear allegiance to the Flag' as it were. I assure you though, that this isn't the pledge we all mumbled our way through elementary school (shamelessly stolen from Mondoweiss; a great Israel/Palestine blog).

Here's an excerpt from Fareed Zakaria's article in Newsweek, entitled Disowning Israel's Arab Minority:

No liberal democracy I know of since World War II has disenfranchised or expelled its own citizens . . . Last week's election has brought the issue into the open. Its resolution will define the future of Israel as a country, as a Jewish state, and as a democracy.

Usually, I dislike the guy. He moderated a short (and IMO, unfair) debate between Dr. Mustafa Barghouti and Yossi Halevi and Yoram Peri.

Anyways, the Two-State solution is dead. I don't know what's going to happen now, but I fully support a single bi-National State with equal rights for Jews/Palestinians/etc.

You can't maintain Israel as both a JEWISH State and a democracy without oppressing the non-Jewish population.

However, Ethan Bronner of the NY Times continues to extol false hope in the Two-State solution while also white washing Netanyahu's assurance to American Jewish groups that he'd never allow a sovereign Palestinian State.

For Mr. Netanyahu, that has meant accepting that much of the West Bank will be part of a future Palestinian state, but with Israel keeping control of the borders, airspace and electromagnetic frequencies. The state would also have no military, by his reckoning.

Whether such a deal would ever be acceptable to the Palestinians is far from clear.

'Far from clear.' REALLY? BECAUSE FROM YOUR DESCRIPTION IT SOUNDS FAN-FCKIN-TASTIC.

Here's the main article in reference to the 'assurance'.

Netanyahu told about 100 leaders from the Conference of Presidents of Major American Jewish Organizations that while he would not want to govern the Palestinians, Israel must maintain control of all borders, airspace and electronic traffic.

"Regardless how the solution is achieved, the Palestinians should run their lives," he said. "They should govern themselves, but they shouldn't have certain powers that would threaten the state of Israel."

The same logic behind the Gaza 'withdrawal'.

Quite often, Israeli apologists while shovel the same superficial truths, and this is the biggest one with relation to the recent massacre. Israel controlled Gaza. They controlled it to such an extent that there was no autonomy. The humanitarian crisis and the smuggling of food/medicine/and yes weapons, is a testament to that fact.

The level of dishonesty is repulsive.

A lot has happened since this thread sort of died off. Hampshire College is publicly divesting from Israel now. Hampshire is the first in the US to do so. It was also the first college to publicly divest from apartheid South Africa.

[Kuya]

Which reminds me. Nukes are supposed to be deterrents, which means they are most effective when all sides have them, because it keeps them all in check... What's the logic behind letting only Israel have nukes in the vicinity? It seems like the logic behind that, rests on the assumption that Israel is inherently more level headed than all other nations in the region. I don't know if the justification would be based on genetics or religion, you know, that Muslims are inherently violent or something like that, in order to justify Israel having a monopoly on power. It was my understanding that monopolies on power always end up in corruption.

[Seraph]

So, has any progress on any front been made in this conflict in the last couple of months? Kinda disappointing that it seems no serious effort is being displayed on either side.

[0ni0n]

Which reminds me. Nukes are supposed to be deterrents, which means they are most effective when all sides have them, because it keeps them all in check... What's the logic behind letting only Israel have nukes in the vicinity? It seems like the logic behind that, rests on the assumption that Israel is inherently more level headed than all other nations in the region. I don't know if the justification would be based on genetics or religion, you know, that Muslims are inherently violent or something like that, in order to justify Israel having a monopoly on power. It was my understanding that monopolies on power always end up in corruption.

Nuclear deterrence only works when both sides know the disastrous consequences and seek to avoid such a catastrophe. The fact that Iran and some Islamic countries repeatedly swore to wipe Israel off the map regardless the cost does not inspire confidence at all on this matter. I am not sure it would be a good decision to let them have nuclear strike capability just so to make Israel behave. In all likelihood, I feel that they would use nuclear preemptive strikes against the Israelis should the technology be in their possession. Of course this is all based on assumption, but it's a valid conclusion to justify. There's every reason that we should continue to strive for the prohibition of nuclear proliferation in the region filled with rogue, militia-plagued, quasi-failed states.

That said, I am not for giving nukes to Israel neither, because we all know Israel is largely responsible for the instability and the main cause for continuous conflicts in the region. Since we have already given them nukes, it's time we share some of the responsibility and hold Israel accountable for some of the faults. For instance, we should probably spearhead the UN forces to make sure that humanitarian aids are not withheld from Palestinian civilians and that Israeli settlers stick to an agreed timetable to move out of the areas belong to the Palestinian.

However, this is not likely in the foreseeable future given the state of our economy and domestic affairs. Also, it would seem that Asia will be the focus of our foreign policy, perhaps due to the instrumental role Asian nations play in financing our bailouts and recovery. Moreover, looking at the results of the Israeli election, the conflict could potentially be exacerbated should the Israeli hardliners successfully form a coalition government. With US more or less turning its back on this issue and the world trying to recover from the recession, I'm afraid to say that the next couple years will be grim for the Palestinians.

[Kuya]

The only person i recall making the threats of destroying Israel was a right-tard politician from Iran who's not even the Ayatola.

edit: I wouldn't blame Israel for the chaos there, Israel is just a symptom, i think the origin of the problem, unlike the popular view these days, that is tantamount to believing the world is square because that's all you can see, that the Middle East has always been violent, is that colonization from both Britain and Russia completely destroyed the region and any development it might have had had world super powers not interfered for their own interests in the region.

[0ni0n]

The only person i recall making the threats of destroying Israel was a right-tard politician from Iran who's not even the Ayatola.

We are not gonna give our nuclear technology to any Islamic countries. It's a political suicide and not aligned with american interest.

[Kuya]

Of course not, it's much more convenient to act like Iran is a backwater country from the Middle Ages with no personal interests of its own. It is convenient to somehow believe that Iran is so fucking nuts, that it would sacrifice all the interests it has, both economic and political to commit suicide, as if Iran didn't have an economic elite that i imagine would rather live to gain more money. And it is far more convenient to act like Ahmadenijad is god emperor of Iran, instead of the figure head he is, while the Ayatola, the one who has all the power is somehow not relevant.

It seems, that it is also convenient to act like Ahmadenijad is not a politician who has to win elections. What? They have elections? Yea, i agree with you the US would never allow a Muslim country that isn't on its payroll to have nukes, and even if they were, Israel would not allow there to be a Muslim country with nukes.

[kuronosan]

I think the problem everyone is forgetting here is that regardless of nationality, someone who just plain doesn't give a shit about their own existence is not going to give a shit about someone else's.

That is the root of the problem.

[0ni0n]

Of course not, it's much more convenient to act like Iran is a backwater country from the Middle Ages with no personal interests of its own. It is convenient to somehow believe that Iran is so fucking nuts, that it would sacrifice all the interests it has, both economic and political to commit suicide, as if Iran didn't have an economic elite that i imagine would rather live to gain more money. And it is far more convenient to act like Ahmadenijad is god emperor of Iran, instead of the figure head he is, while the Ayatola, the one who has all the power is somehow not relevant.

Iran is not a backwater country. I have seen a couple bbc documentaries including Rageh Inside Iran and others, which portray the country in a different light than the mass media does. And I agree that the Ayatola is the moral authority of Iran. The fact that Ahmadenijad will be challenged anyway in the upcoming election says that he's not untouchable as some might think.

We are unable to summon the courage to withdraw our support for Israel in the face of humanitarian travesty suffered by the Palestinians, how do you figure we will give Islamic countries nukes? Plus, according to a report released by IAEA, Iran will have its own indigenous nuclear technology shortly.

[Seraph]

Of course not, it's much more convenient to act like Iran is a backwater country from the Middle Ages with no personal interests of its own. It is convenient to somehow believe that Iran is so fucking nuts, that it would sacrifice all the interests it has, both economic and political to commit suicide, as if Iran didn't have an economic elite that i imagine would rather live to gain more money. And it is far more convenient to act like Ahmadenijad is god emperor of Iran, instead of the figure head he is, while the Ayatola, the one who has all the power is somehow not relevant.

It seems, that it is also convenient to act like Ahmadenijad is not a politician who has to win elections. What? They have elections? Yea, i agree with you the US would never allow a Muslim country that isn't on its payroll to have nukes, and even if they were, Israel would not allow there to be a Muslim country with nukes.

It stops being about 'MAD' these days, and more about 'who loses more?' I think people are more worried about the "I screwed you more than you screwed me" mentality when they think about people with their finger on the little red button.

[Elvis]

What Iran’s Jews Say, By Roger Cohen - NY Times

Interesting read.

[...]I inquired how [Soleiman Sedighpoor, 61, a Jew] felt about the chants of “Death to Israel” — “Marg bar Esraeel” — that punctuate life in Iran.

“Let them say ‘Death to Israel,’ ” he said. “I’ve been in this store 43 years and never had a problem. I’ve visited my relatives in Israel, but when I see something like the attack on Gaza, I demonstrate, too, as an Iranian.”

Sort of related, but as I learn more about this stuff I realize how institutionalized all these problems are.

I disagree with the notion that the US is facilitating the continued expansionist/colonial policies in the West Bank and in the OT, in general.

Read Teddy Roosevelt's memoirs. See what he says about the Native Americans. I don't want to imply that the Palestinians are exactly the same as the Indians but I think they are the spiritual successors.

There is a psychology to history.... sociology! And I think we can understand different 'groups' by their relationship to power. The colonist vs. the colonized. Savages and Palestinian terrorists (I don't group them together with terrorists generally-speaking, as we know them in the post-9/11 age).

So anyways, I think racism/discrimination was institutionalized into Zionism. Just like the treatment of the indigenous population of North America was institutionalized into Manifest Destiny.

It's not like any of these peoples are born a certain way. The place/time/etc. impact them profoundly. These ideologies coupled with the social and geopolitical variables of the region shape their behavior.

michellehaimoff's Podcast

Scroll down to 'Abigail Marsh'. She's a Psych Prof. at Georgetown and she's interviewed here about 'psychology of terrorism'.

[Elvis]

Here's an interview with Lieberman from 3 years ago.

Jews and Arabs can never live together, says Israel's vice PM - Telegraph

Israel was on the "front line of a clash of civilizations between the free world and extremist Islam," he said.

On Iran, he said: "Every week, the president of Iran declares his intention to destroy us."

Mr Lieberman, 48, the leader of Yisrael Beitanu (Israel Our Home), who has previously urged Israel to bomb Teheran, said: "Iran is the base of an axis of evil which is a problem for all the world."

Mr Lieberman, whose addition to the coalition as "strategic threat" minister prompted the resignation of a cabinet colleague, also said that Israel's 1.25 million Arab minority was a "problem" which required "separation" from the Jewish state.

[...]"Minorities are the biggest problem in the world," he said in his soft, Russian-accented English. Asked if Israeli citizens of Arab descent should be forced out through territorial redistribution, he said: "I think separation between two nations is the best solution.Cyprus is the best model. Before 1974, the Greeks and Turks lived together and there were frictions and bloodshed and terror.

"After 1974, they constituted all Turks on one part of the island, all Greeks on the other part of the island and there is stability and security."

When it was pointed out that in Cyprus thousands were forcibly driven from their homes, he replied: "Yes, but the final result was better."

[Khajit]

Which reminds me. Nukes are supposed to be deterrents, which means they are most effective when all sides have them, because it keeps them all in check... What's the logic behind letting only Israel have nukes in the vicinity? It seems like the logic behind that, rests on the assumption that Israel is inherently more level headed than all other nations in the region. I don't know if the justification would be based on genetics or religion, you know, that Muslims are inherently violent or something like that, in order to justify Israel having a monopoly on power. It was my understanding that monopolies on power always end up in corruption.

The logic behind letting Israel have nukes is that by the time it became public that Israel was secretly making nukes they already had at LEAST 200 of them. I cant find the book i read it in unfortunately but the guy who revealed that fact got kidnapped from the protection of mi16( or whatever the British intelligence agency is)
and sent into a Jewish prison shortly afterward.

Long story short it was too late to stop Israel's nuclear program by the time it was found out due to incoming nukes if you tried.

[Kuya]

If that's true then LOL.

[Elvis]

Mordecai Vannau is the name of the Israeli scientist, I think.