Israeli Air Strike

[Cephius]

Yeah, I get it. Isreal gets a sweet deal with US unconditional support. What I don't agree with is that its solely because of A) the power of the Isreal Lobby B) the donation money from wealthy Jews and C) the Jewish vote, as this article suggests.

They no doubt serve a factor, but to me, the main reasons why the US supports Isreal is because of its huge and irreplaceable economic and military value in the region it occupies.

[Elvis]

Exactly. Israel is a strategic asset to the US. It's a regional power.

The ME has long been pillaged by various colonial/imperial powers - whether it was the Brits in the early 1900s, or the Russians in Afghanistan, or now us in both Iraq and Afghanistan.

Hence, the Orwellian "War on Terror" - since you can't ever have a war on an abstraction, this will be an endless crusade to subjugate ME countries to our economic interests.

The Lobby is one factor in the influence. It's no different from the Gun Lobby or Big Pharma or Big Oil. There is one caveat though. The Israel Lobby has been effective at censoring debate and vilifying people who deviate from the status quo.

The best example is how Jimmy Carter's book, Palestine: Peace not Apartheid, was received in the US.

[0ni0n]

Yeah, I get it. Isreal gets a sweet deal with US unconditional support. What I don't agree with is that its solely because of A) the power of the Isreal Lobby B) the donation money from wealthy Jews and C) the Jewish vote, as this article suggests.

They no doubt serve a factor, but to me, the main reasons why the US supports Isreal is because of its huge and irreplaceable economic and military value in the region it occupies.

The fact that obama and other presidential candidates had to pledge their support for Israel and its political agenda really shows that jewish votes and economic support in the form of campaign donations are crucial in the election. I agree to some extent that there are some strategic and geopolitical importance to the support and existence of the Israeli state, but after decades of conflict, there are really more trouble than it's worth.

The paper is really well researched and reasoned, and you would be a die-hard Israeli supporter to not rethink your opinions on this matter.

check out this video about the jewish lobby. It shows that it wines and dines congressmen and presidential candidates, including obama. http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...c+israel&dur=3

[Muffins]

Yeah, I get it. Isreal gets a sweet deal with US unconditional support. What I don't agree with is that its solely because of A) the power of the Isreal Lobby B) the donation money from wealthy Jews and C) the Jewish vote, as this article suggests.

They no doubt serve a factor, but to me, the main reasons why the US supports Isreal is because of its huge and irreplaceable economic and military value in the region it occupies.

And how you feel about it doesn't change nor diminish the fact that a number of Zionists made it their goal to create a Jewish State in Palestine. The Balfour Declaration made that clear. This was before any conflicts over oil resources or the Soviet threat emerged.

There are many in political power in the U.S. who still have those old warm feelings for a Jewish State. It's at the point now where its a sort of unconditional love, as though it were an immediate family member. Why do you think it's taboo for the American media or an American politician to criticize Israeli policy? It's the power of the Israeli lobby that has played the anti-semitic card against all criticism (as if an attack on its policy is an attack on the character of its people), even though Haaretz regularly criticizes its government.

EDIT: Also, to add to 0ni0n's point, Obama had to literally walk back from his stance that the U.S. should be even-handed and fair in dealing with the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (which is also the popular opinion in both the U.S. and Israel) when he made his appearance at an AIPAC event and stated his hard-lined, emphatic support for Israel. The power of the Israeli lobby is not to be underestimated.

[Cephius]

Again... it's not unique to the Jewish Lobby. Every vote is important. Every vote is crucial in an election. All the candidates got on the "marriage is between a man and a woman" bandwagon because they wanted the conservative christian vote. They talked about immigration and a plan to get illegal immigrants on a path to citizenship because they wanted the Hispanic vote. Christian lobbies wine and dine congressmen and candidates as much as anyone. So do a lot of other groups. This is not something unique to Jewish Lobbies, and I think a lot of people overestimate their influence because of the unconditional support for Isreal that, in my opinion, exists for strategic and economic reasons more than political ones.

EDIT: Yes, the media bias is unfair. I agree. But when you deal with a people that have withstood more than one attempt to be systematically eliminated from the planet, a decent amount of restraint is warranted when criticizing them. Just like how black people are still treated differently. Is it fair? No. Can you see why the media does it? Yes. Now, the bias with Isreal has gotten a bit extreme as you mentioned, I agree with that. You should be able to criticize a government and not have it's people take offense. However, I don't think fuzzy feelings and compassion for Isreal and Jews is the reason why we unconditionally support them.

[0ni0n]

Again... it's not unique to the Jewish Lobby. Every vote is important. Every vote is crucial in an election. All the candidates got on the "marriage is between a man and a woman" bandwagon because they wanted the conservative christian vote. They talked about immigration and a plan to get illegal immigrants on a path to citizenship because they wanted the Hispanic vote. Christian lobbies wine and dine congressmen and candidates as much as anyone. So do a lot of other groups. This is not something unique to Jewish Lobbies, and I think a lot of people overestimate their influence because of the unconditional support for Isreal that, in my opinion, exists for strategic and economic reasons more than political ones.

Can you elaborate on those "strategic and economic reasons"? I for one have not seen any tangible returns for the support that we have given to Israel, barring campaign contributions.

[The Stig]

Can you elaborate on those "strategic and economic reasons"? I for one have not seen any tangible returns for the support that we have given to Israel, barring campaign contributions.

Airspace/Sea Space (for the US to park their crafts there for any immediate invasion). =D

[Faris]

Airspace/Sea Space (for the US to park their crafts there for any immediate invasion). =D

thats what the gulf serves, they don't need israel.

[0ni0n]

Airspace/Sea Space (for the US to park their crafts there for any immediate invasion). =D

Well, perhaps you are tongue in cheek. I think it's worth noting that we already have multiple military installations in Kuwait, Saudi Arabia and Iraq, in additional to that our Navy fleet is constantly patrolling in the Red Sea. Not to deny the additional benefit from having bases in Israel, but it is really minimal given that we don't actually help IDF defend themselves on a regular basis, although we do arm them. All these make the reason as to why we unconditionally support Israel all the more elusive and perplexing.

[Cephius]

Can you elaborate on those "strategic and economic reasons"? I for one have not seen any tangible returns for the support that we have given to Israel, barring campaign contributions.

Isreal is a critical location for deploying the Missle Defense System, as it is within range of several countries that are potential threats for launching a rouge missle attack. A book a few years ago by William Arkin (a former US intelligence officer and NBC commentator) alluded that there are least 5 US military bases within Isreal that operate regularly. He called Isreal "America's Aircraft Carrier in the Middle East" and I think that gives you a fair enough idea of how important it is to American military operations.

As far as economic reasons, it's no secret that the US sends a ton of aid to Isreal, but where do you think that money is invested? Look up the wiki article on Isreal-US relations, which states that "Approximately 75% of this aid is spent in the United States, providing American jobs, buttressing the American defense industry, and generating economic growth".

As well as this in the same article: "Several regional America-Israel Chambers of Commerce exist to facilitate expansion by Israeli and American companies into each other's markets. American companies such as Motorola, IBM, Microsoft and Intel chose Israel to establish major R&D centers. Israel has more companies listed on the NASDAQ than any country outside North America."

[0ni0n]

Isreal is a critical location for deploying the Missle Defense System, as it is within range of several countries that are potential threats for launching a rouge missle attack. A book a few years ago by William Arkin (a former US intelligence officer and NBC commentator) alluded that there are least 5 US military bases within Isreal that operate regularly. He called Isreal "America's Aircraft Carrier in the Middle East" and I think that gives you a fair enough idea of how important it is to American military operations.

As far as economic reasons, it's no secret that the US sends a ton of aid to Isreal, but where do you think that money is invested? Look up the wiki article on Isreal-US relations, which states that "Approximately 75% of this aid is spent in the United States, providing American jobs, buttressing the American defense industry, and generating economic growth".

As well as this in the same article: "Several regional America-Israel Chambers of Commerce exist to facilitate expansion by Israeli and American companies into each other's markets. American companies such as Motorola, IBM, Microsoft and Intel chose Israel to establish major R&D centers. Israel has more companies listed on the NASDAQ than any country outside North America."

So we give them money, 75% of which will be spent to stimulate our economy. How are we benefited at all as compared to directly investing that money into the economy and skip the Israel intermediary?

I don't know why you are downplaying the vast influence of AIPAC, the Israel lobby. It's widely recognized as one of the most powerful and well connected lobby groups in existence. The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

[Churchill]

That's pretty offensive to me. It sounds like something Fox News would report. These are not facts. Jews are no more or less important than anyone else. Support of Isreal is not based on how much Jews lobby Washington. Jews are not the only ones who are rich and influential. And as for them backing their own home state... wouldn't you? When terrorists attacked on 9/11 didn't you want the country to defend itself? How do you seriously make this statement and say it like it's fact?

lol, wronggggg.

The problem with Jews is they think that if someone says Israel is bad, then they are saying Jews are bad. Jewish people in America tend to have very little power. AIPAC and other Jewish Lobbies/Israel have a lot of power.

The US should cut off support and let the Arabs and Israeli's kill each other.

But I've said that so often I'm sure it was expected.

[Churchill]

My point in reference to a holocaust was that, if taken to its extreme, the hawks in charge of Israel would want nothing more than to see the Arab world in flames so they can fully return to the Promised Land. There are those who are pleased, very pleased to achieve large Palestinian body counts. Their goal is to break the will of Palestine and remove them from their land; if they don't leave on their own, they will be forced out. The expiration of the cease fire was the day many of the hawks were waiting for. Even the U.S., to some degree, was seemingly expecting this as they almost immediately blamed Hamas at the onset of the Israeli air campaign.

Israel feels their border extends to the Euphrates, so in essence, this is true.

[0ni0n]

That's pretty offensive to me. It sounds like something Fox News would report. These are not facts. Jews are no more or less important than anyone else. Support of Isreal is not based on how much Jews lobby Washington. Jews are not the only ones who are rich and influential. And as for them backing their own home state... wouldn't you? When terrorists attacked on 9/11 didn't you want the country to defend itself? How do you seriously make this statement and say it like it's fact?

Sorry if you can't handle the truth. Is there any other lobby group representing a foreign government tantamount to the AIPAC? US is not constantly plotting to take over territory in Canada or Mexico, your comparison rings hollow.

My biggest problem is the perception that Jewish people have some kind of ulterior motive in mind and that they secretly want to control the world as a shadow government, or the idea that Isreal takes pleasure in killing innocent Palestinians. And again, what was mentioned specifically was Jews are listened to because they are wealthy and influential and because there are a lot of Jews in Florida. These identity politics as you put it are very, very dangerous to me. There are thousands of years of history showing how Jews were persecuted only because of what people thought they were.

Perhaps not the world, but certainly taking over all the lands owned by Palestinians. This is true proven by all the conflicts the Israeli government has helped instigate for the past 60 years. As I said, you have to be blind to not to the influence AIPAC has on US foreign policy.

[Correction]

lol, wronggggg.

The problem with Jews is they think that if someone says Israel is bad, then they are saying Jews are bad. Jewish people in America tend to have very little power. AIPAC and other Jewish Lobbies/Israel have a lot of power.

The US should cut off support and let the Arabs and Israeli's kill each other.

But I've said that so often I'm sure it was expected.

This makes it sound like you actually wish for the extermination of the Palestinians, who by now are fully aware that any silly rocket attacks will be met with disproportionate force, and no amount of crying about it is going to stop the imbalance of retaliation against them.

[Elvis]

The best way to combat apartheid in Israel is to divest. Economic boycotts.

Just like what was done during the South African apartheid. We called the African National Congress and Nelson Mandela terrorists too. So basically, powerful entities have to diplomatically and peacefully resolve their differences with political entities that they condemn.

Note: I don't include Al Qaeda in the same breath here. They are hated by almost everyone but the fringe extremists. The Taliban are technically a political entity despite their disgusting treatment of women/etc.

[MrW]

For those that are discussing the Florida/Jewish influence in regards to lobbying/presidential canidates. Here are some numbers (and a picture!):

http://i212.photobucket.com/albums/c...ationInUSA.jpg

Florida Population - 18,089,888

Palm Beach County - 1,274,013
Broward County - 1,787,636
Miami/Dade County - 2,402,208

Which is roughly 30.2% of the total population.



*Population Data as of 2006*


Now onto Voter Registration Data:

Registered Voters in the state of Florida - 11,247,634

Palm Beach County - 831,411
Broward County - 1,008,656
Dade County - 1,243,315

This is roughly 27.4% of the total number of registered voters in these 3 counties.

*Voter Data as of 2008*

Florida also carries 27 Electoral Votes. Since 1964 (because I'm too lazy to look back further) only Clinton in 1992 didn't carry Florida and went on to become President.

To say that the Jewish community doesn't have THAT big of an influence, in my opinion, is incorrect.

Edit: Sorry for the picture size

[Cephius]

Look, I'm just trying to be as unbiased as possible about this. If you're asking my personal opinion or saying I'm blind to the truth, I like to think I try to get all sides of a story before forming a judgement, and I think that people tend to overestimate the power of the Isreali lobby (It is powerful, but enough to be the sole reason why the US backs Isreal? You yourself said that doesn't make sense) and underestimate other factors.

If you're asking my personal opinion, I come from a Jewish family and the persecution of Jews has affected me personally since my grandfather is a holocaust survivor and had to live with that number on his arm. I take it personally when people take the Jewish belief of the chosen people and twist it to make them seem like evil people bent on world domination.

However, I don't agree with how Isreal has treated the Palestinian people or how they've retaliated against what amounts to be civilians. If it were up to me, I'd make US support conditional based on non-violence. But apparently that's not going to happen, and the US can't withdraw all their support without inviting the entire region to be engulfed in all-out war.

EDIT: Yeah Churchill that's great. Let's just let everyone kill each other. Perfect solution.

[Rhinox]

That's impossible, they are god's chosen people...everything to do is god's wi-

oh my god

Little late but fuck it.


Do you know what they mean by god's chosen people? Heres a hint: it has nothing to do with being favored by god and everything to do with being chosen to suffer.

[Elvis]

Just look at our support for Saudi Arabia.

It's led by a family dictatorship that we keep in power.

So I don't think our support for Israel is so simple.

It's a number of colluding factors. Strategic asset. Regional support for our foreign policy. Influence of the Israel Lobby. Etc.

Support for Israel is broad but not deep in the US.

Americans see Israel and make a snap judgment because it 'looks' like a Western country. It is too but it's discriminatory for non-Jews. Not to the extent that the surrounding Arab countries are but people have their own standard. You get used to a standard and that's what you expect.

(Sidenote: No one would tell blacks during the 50s and 60s to calm down about equal rights since they weren't slaves anymore.)

In any case, I don't think the Lobby is the sole reason. It's definitely a bunch of things. Is it a powerful lobby though? Yea.

Jordan and Egypt are police states but we support them. Turkey is a terrorist state but we support them. Colombia is a terror state but we support them.

It comes down to this perception our leaders have of what's best for us. That's being generous.