Israeli Air Strike

[Elvis]

If shooting from a school, using holy place as a weapon storage, booby-trapping a school and an entire neighborhood is not using human shield, I don't know what is.
And if you think the IDF acutely faked all this matiral, it's perty pathtic and shows how narrow minded you are. Plus, we already seen who won the "I fake stuff to backup my propaganda":

YouTube - Pallywood

Also, Remember Jenin story? Palestinian claimed hundreds were killed, and it went on the media, how vicious Israel is, later on it was discovered that to get the real number of dead you needed to divide the number the Palestinian said by 70 or so...

Same goes for organization such as the PCHR, the head of the legal affairs in the PCHR got Nasser picture in his office, that's kinda of a give-away to the political alignment of this organization.

Gamal Abdel Nasser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And where do you think HMW gets their information from? They don't deploy some kind of intelligence group, they ask people, sometimes, the same people you saw in the Pallywood video. And sometimes they don't even ask, those liars just send their "facts" to the HMW themselves.

I gave my opinion on the human shield issue above. The issue is not whether human shields are being used at this point but how often.

The question of human shields is of the correlation between such tactics and the high civilian death toll.

Furthermore, the human shield argument (from Zionists) is only brought up to demoralize/demonize the enemy (Hamas/Hezbollah/etc.) or to confront criticism of whatever the present military campaign may be.

Human shields in and of themselves are a serious problem and immoral tactic. However, both sides use these tactics so we need to apply a filter to our critical thinking.

That filter is: How much? How often? Is this the reason 1000 + Lebanese civilians died in 2006?

After all, simply acknowledging that one side may use these tactics evokes disgust and resentment toward said side.

So, if we are discussing the greater issue (that of the conflict in general) then we're not going to focus on small incidents (in the grand scheme). We're going to focus on patterns of behavior.

For example, if I say that those Qassam rockets were BOMBARDING Israel for years. And THOUSANDS were launched. You'd get the picture in your mind, that these rockets had left Israel looking like Dresden during World War 2.

However, only 15 people died (during 7 to 8 years of firing - right?) from the Qassam rockets until the Gaza massacre in 2008-2009.

The rockets were undoubtedly an unacceptable act of terror. However, the picture that is painted when Israel talks about the rocket attacks is DISINGENUOUS.

It's an exaggeration. Not in and of itself - mind you. Each one of those 15 deaths is a tragedy for the people involved (I don't know them personally so I'm not going to feign passionate sympathy, rather I'll acknowledge a basic level of respect/human decency.)

SO! IN that same sense - when people use the human shield argument they are typically responding to criticism or trying to demonize/demoralize 'the enemy'. That's the context of the RHETORICAL purpose of the human shield argument.

The actual issue of human shields is important - I'm simply talking about how it is *used* politically.

Now on to PCHR. You reference a picture of Abdel Nasser. I could fucking care less.

How many Israeli politicians (and a PRIME MINISTER - Menachem Begin) were former members of Irgun (called a 'terrorist organization' by the British way back then) or other militant nationalist groups that regularly killed civilians?

There are/were even awards and ribbons given out (by the Israeli STATE) to former members of these groups:

Medals and Decorations of Israel

Oh and what about Netanyahu - THE CURRENT PRIME MINISTER OF ISRAEL - commemorating the bombing of the King David Hotel in Jerusalem?

British anger at terror celebration - Times Online, UK

I could go on and on. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. I'm supposed to drop PCHR as a credible source because they have a fucking picture of Nasser hanging somewhere in their offices?

[Kuya]

The IDF kills another Palestinian protester:

Reporting from Ramallah, West Bank, and Jerusalem -- An Israeli border police officer shot and killed a Palestinian man and seriously wounded a teenage boy Friday during a violent demonstration against Israel's installation of a barrier in the West Bank.

The clash underscored the intensity of the conflict a day after President Obama, in a landmark address to the Muslim world, voiced sympathy with Palestinians for "the daily humiliations -- large and small -- that come with occupation" but also admonished them to renounce violence in their struggle for an independent state.

They also shot a 14 year old who was just dragging away a wounded protester, the kid is now in critical condition. The man who was killed was apparently hurling rocks. So people can decide for themselves if it's okay to kill protesters for trowing rocks.

[Elvis]

Israeli citizens reject military service - 06 Jun 09

[Beckwin]

this is just kinda lolworthy/disgusting:

TAPPED Archive | The American Prospect

In a sign of growing concern in Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu's government over US President Barack Obama's Middle East policies, Minister-without-Portfolio Yossi Peled proposed Israeli sanctions on the US in a letter to cabinet ministers on Sunday...

In the interim, the minister suggests reconsidering military and civilian purchases from the US, selling sensitive equipment that the Washington opposes distributing internationally, and allowing other countries that compete with the US to get involved with the peace process and be given a foothold for their military forces and intelligence agencies. Peled said that shifting military acquisition to America's competition would make Israel less dependent on the US. For instance, he suggested buying planes from the France-based Airbus firm instead of the American Boeing.

Israel is absolutely ridiculous. I assume this means we can cut off aid? It'd be cool if we could take the nukes back too; that'd cool Iran's jets as well.

[guartz]

this is just kinda lolworthy/disgusting:



Israel is absolutely ridiculous. I assume this means we can cut off aid? It'd be cool if we could take the nukes back too; that'd cool Iran's jets as well.

Nothing short of a fantasy, but I think if things went that far, U.S could easily sanction Israel... I mean, who would veto that eh?

[Correction]

Nothing short of a fantasy, but I think if things went that far, U.S could easily sanction Israel... I mean, who would veto that eh?

The Russians, just to fuck with us :D

[archibaldcrane]

Please Israel, I'm begging you, give us a reason to turn our backs on you. Please please please let us wash our hands of you, please.

[Khajit]

I don't have an in depth knowledge of the US government but considering that a former leader of the Israeli lobby has bragged about being able to completely control who's on the US senate couldn't they just make the senators veto said actions?
At minimum Israel has enough of a grip on the US leadership to ensure they get support easily.I'm being pessimistic I suppose but the US already gives away a huge chunk of surplus to Israel as it is for no logical reason.

[Elvis]

It's mainly congress where the fuck us.

[Kuya]

I'm fairly optimistic about the situation for the time being. Not so because i feel Obama is taking a strong stance against Israel (to the contrary, it's rather lukewarm), but the real game changer is that even though Obama's stance is moderate, even THAT is enough to drive many right wing zionists in Israel absolutely wild. So far, my hope is that they demonize Obama so much (they've been calling him the n-word and attacking Palestinians as "revenge") that they will infuriate the American people enough to really bust their chops.

[kuronosan]

Israel really wants to be the next North Korea, don't they?

Fuck em. If they want to demonize America so much for playing fair, we need to just cut them loose like a leeching stepchild.

Selfish assholes.

[Elvis]

Two Years of Gaza Closure by the Numbers

June 2007- June 2009 Crossings Closed; Supplies Restricted

Þ Percentage of goods permitted to enter Gaza, relative to demand: 25% (approximately 2,500 truckloads/month instead of 10,400/month prior to June 2007).

Þ Supplies of industrial diesel permitted to enter Gaza, relative to need: 63% (2.2 million liters/week rather than the 3.5 million liters/week needed to generate electricity).

Þ Average length of power outages in Gaza: five hours per day.

Þ Current number of people without access to running water in Gaza: 28,000.

Compare and Contrast:

Þ Number of food items Israel's Cabinet Resolution promised to permit to enter Gaza: Unlimited.

Þ Number of food items actually permitted into Gaza: 18.

Þ Amount of money pledged for reconstruction aid at the March 2009 Donors Conference: $4.5 billion.

Þ Quantity of building materials permitted to enter Gaza: Zero.

Þ Unemployment rate in Gaza in 2007, the year the closure was imposed: 30%.

Þ Unemployment rate in Gaza in 2008: 40%.

No development, no prosperity, only "minimum humanitarian" items allowed.

Þ The Israeli military permits margarine in individual packets to enter Gaza, but margarine in buckets is banned, because it could be used for industry (i.e. by factories producing food and providing jobs).

Þ The Israeli government clarified that its March 22, 2009 Cabinet decision authorizing the "unrestricted" supply of food into Gaza "has been given a restrictive interpretation" and that the government "did not intend to remove the restrictions, which were imposed in the past, on the entrance of food and supplies into Gaza". Translation: Food supply continues to be restricted.

Þ Among the food items banned from entering Gaza: Halva, tea, juice powder.

Þ Among the nonfood items banned from entering Gaza: soccer balls (footballs), guitars, paper, ink.
People trapped:

• Number of days Rafah Crossing has been open for regular traffic: Zero.
  
• Number of people unable to travel through Rafah each month: 39,000.
  
• Criteria for passage through Erez Crossing: exceptional humanitarian cases.

Source: Gisha - Israeli Legal Center for Freedom of Movement

Israel is still carrying out attacks into Gaza (as well as the West Bank of course):

[...]During the reporting period, one Palestinian was killed by IOF in the West Bank. Additionally, IOF wounded 13 Palestinian civilians, including four children and a paramedic, in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip.

During the reporting period, a Palestinian civilian was killed and 12 others, including four children and a paramedic, were wounded when IOF used forced against peaceful demonstrations organized by Palestinian civilians to protest the construction of the Annexation Wall in Bal'ein and Ne;lin villages, west of Ramallah. According to eyewitness, the victim was shot dead when he attempted to offer help to a wounded child.

In the Gaza Strip, on 04 June 2009, an 11-year-old child died of wounds he had sustained on 06 January 2009 when IOF bombed his family's house. The attack killed the child's father and grandmother.

Source: Relief Web


Some recent studies confirming the obvious:

(Reported in Electronic Intifada - a Pro-Palestinian website)

The Human Sciences Research Council of South Africa (HSRC) has released a report confirming that Israel is practicing both colonialism and apartheid in the Occupied Palestinian Territories (OPT).

The HSRC commissioned an international team of scholars and practitioners of international public law from South Africa, the United Kingdom, Israel and the West Bank to conduct this study. The resulting 300-page report, titled "Occupation, Colonialism, Apartheid?: A re-assessment of Israel's practices in the occupied Palestinian territories under international law," represents 15 months of research and constitutes an exhaustive review of Israel's practices in the OPT according to definitions of colonialism and apartheid provided by international law. The project was suggested originally by the January 2007 report by eminent South African jurist John Dugard, in his capacity as Special Rapporteur to the United Nations Human Rights Council, when he indicated that Israeli practices had assumed characteristics of colonialism and apartheid.

[...]The HSRC serves as the national social science council for South Africa. The Middle East Project of the HSRC is an independent two-year project to conduct analysis of Middle East politics relevant to South African foreign policy, funded by the Department of Foreign Affairs of the Government of South Africa. The analysis in this report is entirely independent of the views or foreign policy of the Government of South Africa and does not represent an official position of the HSRC. It is intended purely as a scholarly resource for the South African government and civil society and the concerned international community.

The report:
http://www.electronicintifada.net/do...90608-hsrc.pdf

However, another (tragically ironic) report was released, revealing Democratic South Africa’s complicity in Israel’s occupation, colonialism and apartheid.

Report endorsed by, The Palestinian Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions Committee (BNC).

[Khajit]

I'm fairly optimistic about the situation for the time being. Not so because i feel Obama is taking a strong stance against Israel (to the contrary, it's rather lukewarm), but the real game changer is that even though Obama's stance is moderate, even THAT is enough to drive many right wing zionists in Israel absolutely wild. So far, my hope is that they demonize Obama so much (they've been calling him the n-word and attacking Palestinians as "revenge") that they will infuriate the American people enough to really bust their chops.

Can i see some sources/videos and quotes from "reputable" origins concerning IMPORTANT Israeli leaders/ect calling Obama a nigger? This seems like the kind of thing that could be used for spreading viral information and using the word in such a manner can easily turn the majority of the USA against Israeli policies if it became common public knowledge. Strangely enough murdering thousands of people isn't enough to spark outrage but calling Obama a nigger is information that cant be spun to make Israel look good at all.

[Kuya]

No important israeli leaders have called Obama that, nor does my post even say that.

Unless you meant something else.

[Muffins]

I'm fairly optimistic about the situation for the time being. Not so because i feel Obama is taking a strong stance against Israel (to the contrary, it's rather lukewarm), but the real game changer is that even though Obama's stance is moderate, even THAT is enough to drive many right wing zionists in Israel absolutely wild. So far, my hope is that they demonize Obama so much (they've been calling him the n-word and attacking Palestinians as "revenge") that they will infuriate the American people enough to really bust their chops.

Maybe meant Nazi?

[Khajit]

well you had mentioned that some Zionists had called him that. i was merely trying to determine if the people saying that were in a position of importance by asking you. it doesn't matter as much if some foot soldier calls obama a nigger but if say a high ranking military officer or diplomat had then dissemination of such info would be damning so i specified my question to only allow for "important" people as knowing what they had said was good information while knowing what some random shithead says is useless.

[Khajit]

Maybe meant Nazi?

good point. it just seemed natural that it you wanted to piss off or insult a black person the first N word that comes to your mind isn't Nazi.

[Kuya]

Obviously, you're not going to find an israeli official literally attacking Palestinians as revenge. I am referring to colonizers.

[Kuya]

Israelis are asking for help from the Americans to help them stop Israel. It looks like you have permission, so, time to act?

[archibaldcrane]

Israelis are asking for help from the Americans to help them stop Israel. It looks like you have permission, so, time to act?

Sauce? That sounds lulzy.