Israeli Air Strike

[Kuya]

It is interesting to note that it seems to be taboo to point out that that AIPAC is essentially supporting duel loyalty, where Israel is placed above America. Yet, when a jewish neocon says it, when he says that American Jews should put Israel over America, no outrage seems to brew.

Take Norman Pdhoretz for example:

Since 1928, the average Jewish vote for the Democrat in presidential elections has been an amazing 75% -- far higher than that of any other ethno-religious group.

Yet there were reasons to think that it would be different in 2008. The main one was Israel. Despite some slippage in concern for Israel among American Jews, most of them were still telling pollsters that their votes would be strongly influenced by the positions of the two candidates on the Jewish state. This being the case, Mr. McCain's long history of sympathy with Israel should have given him a distinct advantage over Mr. Obama, whose own history consisted of associating with outright enemies of the Jewish state like the Rev. Jeremiah Wright and the historian Rashid Khalidi. . . .

In 2008, we were faced with a candidate who ran to an unprecedented degree on the premise that the American system was seriously flawed and in desperate need of radical change—not to mention a record powerfully indicating that he would pursue policies dangerous to the security of Israel. Because of all this, I hoped that my fellow Jews would finally break free of the liberalism to which they have remained in thrall long past the point where it has served either their interests or their ideals.

Glenn Greenwald is already on it:

Apparently, The Godfather of Neoconservatism believes that American Jews do -- and should -- base their political beliefs not on what is best for their own country, but on what is best for a foreign country (Israel). According to him, even though Obama shares most of their views on political matters ("on abortion, gay rights, school prayer, gun control and assisted suicide, the survey data show that Jews are by far the most liberal of any group in America"), American Jews should have nonetheless voted for McCain because of McCain's alleged "long history of sympathy with Israel." Isn't this the "dual loyalty" argument that nobody is allowed to make upon pain of being accused of all sorts of bad things -- that the political beliefs of some American Jews are shaped primarily or even exclusively by loyalty to Israel? Yet here we find not Walt and Mearshimer or Chas Freeman making this claim, but Norman Podhoretz.

The reason why Podhoretzian neocons are so frustrated that more Americans Jews don't respond to their pressure tactics is because most don't think the way neocons do and don't have the same priorities. Not only do the vast majority of American Jews reject virtually every core neocon tenet of American politics, but they also have the same priorities as Americans generally when it comes to deciding their political loyalties (the economy, health care, social issues -- not Israel). In 2008, while most American Jews said they "care about" Israel in general, only 6 % identified "support for Israel" as the most important factor in determining their vote. That's why Norm Podhoretz and his friends are so angry and confused. Devotion to Israel is at the center of their political world-view -- it's what shapes their political beliefs. One right-wing columnist actually complained that while Obama "may even be pro-Israel and pro-Jewish to an extent . . . to him America’s interests take precedence" -- as though that's a bad thing. But that view -- that Israel's interests should predominate American politics -- is shared only by a small minority of American Jews (namely: neocons), which is why their "dual loyalty" appeals fall on deaf ears.

Interesting indeed.

[archibaldcrane]

I was talking with my atheist Jewish friend the other day about I/P - something she knows even significantly less than I do about, despite her having taken her free jew trip to Israel a few years ago. Anyway, I was trying to tell her about how repatriation was important for displaced people from when the Israel was formed. She asked for details about how people were displaced - in what matter was it performed? (The implication being that if they left on their own free will then they gave up the right to repatriation). I am not an I/P expert by any means and I didn't have enough knowledge to give details. Can anyone point me to unbiased (as best as possible) "just the facts" info about the displacement, and other issues involved with the repatriation debate?

She surprised me by saying "but if they allow repatriation then it will no longer be a Jewish state!" I tried to get her to explain what that meant and why it was necessary, which she had a hard time with. She was also surprised when I told her that there were non-jews in elected positions.

Also, I recall hearing that due to birth rates, Jews would become a minority in Israel in X number of years, but I couldn't back that up either.

Elvis, hit me.

[Faris]

atheist Jewish friend

lol

[Zilong]

jew is a race too

and a verb, an adjective, or adverb, etc

[archibaldcrane]

lol

Yeah I hate that shit too - I don't identify with my "catholic culture" enough to say I'm a catholic atheist.

The identity politics of judaism piss me off.

However, her atheism, her critical thinking about things (she loves shit like "the omnivore's dilemma" and whatnot), she's pursuing a PhD - she has the capacity to place Israel in the proper perspective, which is why it frustrates me when she just acts like a jewparrot.

Elviswhereru? *lightsPalestinesignal*

[Elvis]

I think Jewish identity can go beyond just religion.

I was looking for a fact sheet that was unbiased and I can't come up with one that was made by neither side and/or takes neither 'side'.

All I'll say is, let this be a starting point for you and then check out other sources (Zionist/Palestinian/etc. - although, I'm referencing a Palestinian site below).

Al-Awda - PRRC: Fact Sheet

However, we can agree on facts but disagree on the conclusions we draw from said facts. So someone can report the facts, like the ethnic cleansing of Palestine of 1948, but conclude that it was A) necessary and B) a good thing.

This is the only book I've read that is about the refugee question, but I've learned more about it through documentaries/the Internet/etc. :

The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited

It's by Prof. Benny Morris of Ben-Gurion University of the Negev.

I think he is overall a good historian, but I don't agree with a lot of his historiography and his moral/ethical conclusions.

Here's a good interview with him from Haaretz, that condenses the his opinions on the 'facts' presented in his book I mentioned above:

Part 1: Survival of the fittest - Haaretz - Israel News

Part 2: Survival of the fittest (cont.) - Haaretz - Israel News

His belief is that if the Zionists didn't expel the Palestinian Arabs (700-800K) in 48', then there would have been another Holocaust. He also speaks frankly (it's common sense) when he concludes:

That was the situation. That is what Zionism faced. A Jewish state would not have come into being without the uprooting of 700,000 Palestinians. Therefore it was necessary to uproot them. There was no choice but to expel that population. It was necessary to cleanse the hinterland and cleanse the border areas and cleanse the main roads. It was necessary to cleanse the villages from which our convoys and our settlements were fired on.

And he rationalizes a bit further (note the conflation: All Arabs are the same; 'Arabs' are a monolith; the past conquests of 'Arab this' and 'Islam that' ultimately justify the displacement and dispossession of the Palestinian Arabs of the present):

I feel sympathy for the Palestinian people, which truly underwent a hard tragedy. I feel sympathy for the refugees themselves. But if the desire to establish a Jewish state here is legitimate, there was no other choice. It was impossible to leave a large fifth column in the country. From the moment the Yishuv [pre-1948 Jewish community in Palestine] was attacked by the Palestinians and afterward by the Arab states, there was no choice but to expel the Palestinian population. To uproot it in the course of war.

Remember another thing: the Arab people gained a large slice of the planet. Not thanks to its skills or its great virtues, but because it conquered and murdered and forced those it conquered to convert during many generations. But in the end the Arabs have 22 states. The Jewish people did not have even one state. There was no reason in the world why it should not have one state. Therefore, from my point of view, the need to establish this state in this place overcame the injustice that was done to the Palestinians by uprooting them.

I consider this to be an insane rationale for what the Zionists did to the Palestinians in 48' and what they are still doing to them in the present.

If this is the standard - then why don't the Zionists take their historical anger out on the Germans? The Germans directly affected 'the Jews'. Not 'the Arabs'. So go colonize Germany, and displace 'the Germans'. After all, remember the Holocaust!

Furthermore, if we use this standard in the present, shouldn't Israel be ethnically cleansed too? This logic is convenient for those in power. They can be pseudo-benevolent and talk about past-wrongdoings because they know there is no credibly logistical possibility of reprisals against themselves.

EDIT:

Actually, I completely forgot about United Nations survey books on Palestine. I could look them up if you want but they cover the status of British Mandate of Palestine before the war.

On-line version of the book:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/i...fPalestine.jpg

http://www.palestineremembered.com/A.../Story831.html

Obviously that's a Palestinian website, but the document is impartial. So just focus on that. That website is actually full of lots of good information and you can check their sources. Ignore their historiography if you wish. Come to your own conclusions.

I would also recommend this picture-book to you:

http://www.amazon.com/Before-Their-D...2791541&sr=1-1

It showcases pictures of Palestine before the war.

[Correction]

So, just where the fuck was Bibi Netanyahu on Monday?

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Papers slam Netanyahu trip 'lies'

[pohibaba]

So, just where the fuck was Bibi Netanyahu on Monday?

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Papers slam Netanyahu trip 'lies'

Where's the Israeli Joe Wilson when you need him?

[Elvis]

UN Fact Finding Mission finds strong evidence of war crimes and crimes against humanity committed during the Gaza conflict; calls for end to impunity - 15 September 2009

http://www.unhchr.ch/huricane/hurica...B?opendocument

NEW YORK / GENEVA – The UN Fact-Finding Mission led by Justice Richard Goldstone on Tuesday released its long-awaited report on the Gaza conflict, in which it concluded there is evidence indicating serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law were committed by Israel during the Gaza conflict, and that Israel committed actions amounting to war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity.

The report also concludes there is also evidence that Palestinian armed groups committed war crimes, as well as possibly crimes against humanity, in their repeated launching of rockets and mortars into Southern Israel.

[...]In compiling the 574- page report, which contains detailed analysis of 36 specific incidents in Gaza, as well as a number of others in the West Bank and Israel, the Mission conducted 188 individual interviews, reviewed more 10,000 pages of documentation, and viewed some 1,200 photographs, including satellite imagery, as well as 30 videos.

The mission heard 38 testimonies during two separate public hearings held in Gaza and Geneva, which were webcast in their entirety. The decision to hear participants from Israel and the West Bank in Geneva rather than in situ was taken after Israel denied the Mission access to both locations. Israel also failed to respond to a comprehensive list of questions posed to it by the Mission. Palestinian authorities in both Gaza and the West Bank cooperated with the Mission.

The report summary in this article, indicates that Israel committed far more atrocities and with more intensity - for obvious reasons, i.e. power of forces, political impunity, etc.

It concludes something that has been obvious for a long time and that was apparent during the 2006 war in Lebanon:

The Mission found that, in the lead up to the Israeli military assault on Gaza, Israel imposed a blockade amounting to collective punishment and carried out a systematic policy of progressive isolation and deprivation of the Gaza Strip. During the Israeli military operation, code-named "Operation Cast Lead," houses, factories, wells, schools, hospitals, police stations and other public buildings were destroyed. Families are still living amid the rubble of their former homes long after the attacks ended, as reconstruction has been impossible due to the continuing blockade. More than 1,400 people were killed during the military operation.

Significant trauma, both immediate and long-term, has been suffered by the population of Gaza. The Report notes signs of profound depression, insomnia and effects such as bed-wetting among children. The effects on children who witnessed killings and violence, who had thought they were facing death, and who lost family members would be long lasting, the Mission found, noting in its Report that some 30 per cent of children screened at UNRWA schools suffered mental health problems.

The report concludes that the Israeli military operation was directed at the people of Gaza as a whole, in furtherance of an overall and continuing policy aimed at punishing the Gaza population, and in a deliberate policy of disproportionate force aimed at the civilian population. The destruction of food supply installations, water sanitation systems, concrete factories and residential houses was the result of a deliberate and systematic policy which has made the daily process of living, and dignified living, more difficult for the civilian population.

Amnesty International/HRW/B'Tselem/etc. all more or less come to similar conclusions. Israel has refused to cooperate with every fact-finding mission so far, *I think*. There is a gap between the IDF's casualties report and B'Tselem's for example and I think the IDF is refusing to publish their findings in detail. They did something similar w/ the Lebanon 2006 war.

More on B'Tselem vs. the IDF:

Israeli study: Civilians majority of Gaza war dead - Associated Press

B'Tselem spokeswoman Sarit Michaeli said researchers focused on civilians, particularly children and minors. In all, 320 Gazans under 18, all of them noncombatants, were among the dead, B'Tselem said. In addition, 19 minors were counted as combatants.

Among the minors, 252 of the dead were under 16, and the group's researchers visited homes and collected photos, death certificates and other documents relating to all those deaths. The military has said it is aware of 89 dead children under 16.

B'Tselem noted that the military withheld details that would have enabled the group to cross-check information. The discrepancy between the army's figures and those of B'Tselem is "particularly blatant concerning minors," the group said.

Michaeli said B'Tselem could only dispatch two Gaza field workers since the military prevented outsiders, including Arabic-speaking researchers from Israel, from entering the territory.

In defining combatants, B'Tselem included militants who are generally involved in fighting, even if at the moment of attack they are not taking part in hostilities.

The Israeli military appears to have used a more sweeping definition. During the war, Israeli officials said anyone involved with Hamas should consider himself a target.

In addition to its report, B'Tselem has sent details of about 20 cases with alleged violations of the law to Israel's military prosecutor. Suspicions include firing on civilians or using them as human shields, B'Tselem said.

Compare the AP article headline and it's content w/ that of this Jewish Telegraph Agency article:

http://jta.org/news/article/2009/09/...based-on-facts

B'Tselem said it arrived at the figures following months of investigation and by cross-checking with various sources. The organization called the "blatant discrepancy" between its figures and those released by the Israel Defense Forces "intolerable." [My interjection: B'Tselem was specific. They stated that between their report and the IDF's - there existed a discrepancy in numbers, "particularly blatant concerning minors." The JTA paraphrases - but puts it in double quotations - and it changes the meaning.]

The Research Division of the IDF Defense Intelligence reported six months ago that there were 1,166 Palestinian casualties in the Gaza offensive, of which 709 were terror operatives affiliated with Hamas and other terror groups. The IDF said 295 of the dead were civilians, 89 younger than 16 and 49 of them women.

"The B'Tselem report is not based on facts or on accurate statistics," the IDF Spokesman's Office said. "Furthermore, among its sources, B'Tselem officially states that it based its findings on cross referencing statistics from investigations of Palestinian human rights groups and various Web sites and blogs, including those of the militant wings of terror organizations and that of the Palestinian Police.

"The discrepancy in the numbers is based on the fact that B'Tselem's sources are organizations with a vested interest, and it does not have the tools, nor the intelligence capabilities with which it can within a necessary degree of confidence know the causes of death or the affiliations of these casualties."

B'Tselem repeatedly asked the Israeli army to share its list of names of the dead in an effort to cross-check the names against the lists it had compiled. A B'Tselem spokeswoman told JTA on Wednesday that the group would revise its report were the army to release such a list. An army spokesman said the list was classified.

This the same argument the Israeli government is using against other NGOs as well though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jY9-oC_T7wc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ctNpBhm51h8

It's an interview on DemocracyNow! w/ Human Rights Watch representative, Fred Abrahams - the lead author of the HRW report on Gaza, White Flag Deaths : Killings of Palestinian Civilians during Operation Cast Lead - and Israeli Deputy Permanent Rep. to the UN, Amb. Daniel Carmon. The Ambassador's rebuttal is weak and he simply regurgitates a narrative rather than answering HRW's methodology or investigations.

[Kuya]

I really do hope something tangible comes out of this. Of course, aside from Israel's destroyed chokehold on the good guy image. Which reminds me, thank god for ring wing zionists. I think we can attribute to them to a fair degree that people are seeing the Israeli government for what it is. Actually, i think that in part, observing the Israel issue is what has led me to conclude that the best way to get real change going, especially when faced with systemic blocks and when violence is not as obvious as an outright genocide, is to help the most extreme rignt wing sections of society into power so as to make all the things that are wrong plain for everyone to see.

By the way and somewhat unrelated, i recall hearing that most of Israel's water resources are located in the West Bank, which, considering we're talking about a desert, would mean that Israel will NEVER let the Palestinians have a state with sufficient intengrity. Let me see if i can look up the sources.

[Elvis]

bump!

Fuck that other thread. King Kong ain't got nothing on myyyeaaaaaaah!

BTW

@residue

Yea, I agree this report won't do anything. That doesn't mean those crimes weren't committed though.

Try reconciling the findings in this report (as well as the other major ones released this year by Amnesty International, B'Tselem, HRW, etc.) instead of mindless real-politiking (I give you too much credit though; you're just reflexively Zionist.)

EDIT:

And no, this conflict won't end anytime soon. This is NOT just an Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's an American conflict. It's us and Israel that are the gatekeepers in this conflict. We need to stop acting like it's all happening independent of us.

[Meat]

Even on the heels of the report, Bibi says no to the settlement freeze. What a G

[Elvis]

Even on the heels of the report, Bibi says no to the settlement freeze. What a G

More like a scumbag, thief, colonist.

[Meat]

bump!

Fuck that other thread. King Kong ain't got nothing on myyyeaaaaaaah!

BTW

@residue

Yea, I agree this report won't do anything. That doesn't mean those crimes weren't committed though.

Try reconciling the findings in this report (as well as the other major ones released this year by Amnesty International, B'Tselem, HRW, etc.) instead of mindless real-politiking (I give you too much credit though; you're just reflexively Zionist.)

EDIT:

And no, this conflict won't end anytime soon. This is NOT just an Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It's an American conflict. It's us and Israel that are the gatekeepers in this conflict. We need to stop acting like it's all happening independent of us.

I'm not a zionist, i'm a patriot.

[Elvis]

I'm not a zionist, i'm a patriot.

Zionism is a colonial ideology. You could not have your 'Jewish' State without the ethnic cleansing of 700-800K Palestinians from their homeland.

That's why there is a Jewish majority inside Israel. Oh and if you didn't notice, 20% of Israel isn't Jewish. And the OT belongs to the Palestinians, according to IHL and the rulings of the World Court and the International Court of Justice advisory ruling.

It also happens to be a matter of common sense and basic humanity that you don't get to kick people from their homes, and then move in like you were always there. 500+ Palestinian villages were erased from the map in the years following the formation of the Zionist State.

And I don't think you're a patriot. A patriot should adhere to the principles and ideals of his or her country or nation (people's share culture/history/language/territory/etc.). What exactly are you supporting? You have an 'us vs. them' tribal mentality.

What good are these settlements to Israel? How does it make Israel "safe" to colonize someone else's land and to police an entire population? Effectively holding this hostile population under brutal military occupation?

You regularly contribute nothing to these discussions other than one-liners, and often mock these reports. At one point you said there was no Palestinian people.

You are a Zionist.

[Meat]

Zionism is a colonial ideology. You could not have your 'Jewish' State without the ethnic cleansing of 700-800K Palestinians from their homeland.

That's why there is a Jewish majority inside Israel. Oh and if you didn't notice, 20% of Israel isn't Jewish. And the OT belongs to the Palestinians, according to IHL and the rulings of the World Court and the International Court of Justice advisory ruling.

It also happens to be a matter of common sense and basic humanity that you don't get to kick people from their homes, and then move in like you were always there. 500+ Palestinian villages were erased from the map in the years following the formation of the Zionist State.

We didnt kick them out, the Brits did that

And I don't think you're a patriot. A patriot should adhere to the principles and ideals of his or her country or nation (people's share culture/history/language/territory/etc.). What exactly are you supporting? You have an 'us vs. them' tribal mentality.

What good are these settlements to Israel? How does it make Israel "safe" to colonize someone else's land and to police an entire population? Effectively holding this hostile population under brutal military occupation?

there is and should be a penalty for waging war, Gaza and the Westbank was their's

You regularly contribute nothing to these discussions other than one-liners, and often mock these reports. At one point you said there was no Palestinian people.

You are a Zionist.

Show me an autonomous Palestinian state ever existing, need a state for "a people" to exist.

I contribute one liners because in the end this board\thread is crap and will never yield sort of result. I am the only one here that has ever done or said anything that worth mentioning, once one of you are willing to take up arms and fight for what you preach then it'll matter.

There's no point in Zionism, the state has already been created

[Elvis]

We didnt kick them out, the Brits did that

Are you serious? The Brit's didn't expel the Palestinians during the 1948 war. Perhaps you're confused.

there is and should be a penalty for waging war, Gaza and the Westbank was their's

Which war? The Zionists were already carrying out the ethnic cleansing in the months before the declaration of the State. The Americans at the time were trying to mediate.

Most of the war was fought inside the Palestinians' side of the partition. And it was less a war of conquest, and more a war to defend the areas within the Palestinian partition that the Zionists were invading.

Show me an autonomous Palestinian state ever existing, need a state for "a people" to exist.

Wow, so there is no 'Jewish' people then? That what you're saying?

No, a STATE is a political entity. There is no USSR (a federation of States, a political entity). There is no Nazi Germany. Did all those people who belonged to these respective political entities vanish?

No.

I contribute one liners because in the end this board\thread is crap and will never yield sort of result. I am the only one here that has ever done or said anything that worth mentioning, once one of you are willing to take up arms and fight for what you preach then it'll matter.

You provide one-liners because you don't know any better. What little information appears in your post is preposterous.

There's no point in Zionism, the state has already been created

The State is already created, and yet there are Jewish-only colonies in Occupied Palestinian territory. WHOOPS! They aren't really Palestinians! Palestinians don't exist! So you get to steal their land.

Israel doesn't have a constitution. Israel doesn't have defined borders in any MEANINGFUL sense because it occupies the whole of the W. Bank, E. Jerusalem and restricts the autonomy of Gaza after having recently leaving it (and then using as target practice).

There was never a point to Zionism. No State has an inherent and arbitrary 'right to exist'. Certainly not a Jewish State or any other kind of ridiculous ethno-religious discriminatory State.

The fact that you think the Brits are the ones who expelled the Palestinians is telling. I'd love for you to get a source for that - it's the equivalent of 2+2 = 5.

[Kuya]

First time i've ever heard of the Brits expelling the Palestinians.

[Correction]

I contribute one liners because in the end this board\thread is crap and will never yield sort of result. I am the only one here that has ever done or said anything that worth mentioning, once one of you are willing to take up arms and fight for what you preach then it'll matter.

"Until you've shot a so-called 'Palestinian' full of holes like I have then demolished the houses of his kin, you're not allowed a valid position on whether or not Israel is doing the right thing."

Amidoinitrite?

[Sairasu23]

This is something like the north korea thing?