Israeli Air Strike

[Kuya]

I like this column from Shlomo Ben-Ami, who was the ex-exterior minister for Israel.

La agonía de Gaza y la trampa de Israel · ELPAÍS.com

With all the rockets that are launched daily against Israeli towns from Gaza, plus the political rivalry between the Israelis to see who offers the toughest response agaisnt Hamas as the ability of the Egyptian government to mediate a new cease-fire, stronger than the previous one has been seriously damaged by its own tensions with Islamists in Gaza, a massive Israeli military operation was only a matter of time.

Hamas, as an authority, must be judged by its ability to provide security and a decent government to the people of Gaza, but as a movement, it is incapable of betraying his relentless efforts to fight the occupying Israeli to death. After all, it did not win the elections to make peace with Israel and improve relations with the United States. For how promising some sporadic signs of approaching the field of political realism may be, its immediate priority is not to betray its own raison d'etre by showing their support for the Annapolis process of Americans.

The Kassam rocket attack by Hamas, which has turned the western Negev into a hostage to the whims of Islamist death squads, is not an attempt to drag Israel into a costly invasion that could shake the regime, but a measure to establish a balance of threats based on keeping alive the flames of a low-intensity conflict even with an inevitable new truce.

A Hamas that is increasingly arrogant and extremely well armed, confident that the truce was agreed only in exchange for further concessions from Israel and Egypt: the opening of the steps in Gaza, including the Rafah crossing, controlled by the Egyptians (adamant in its position that it should remain closed), the release of Hamas prisoners in Egypt, the suspension of Israel attacks against Hamas activists in West Bank and the right to respond to any alleged violation of the ceasefire by Israel.

However, the attitude of Hamas has proved to be a dangerous exercise of political suicide, because a low-intensity conflict could easily escalate into a real fire fight if, as has happened now, containment shown so far by the Israelis becomes politically untenable . Unlike the Israeli attack against Hezbollah in the summer of 2006, the current operation is not an impulsive reaction triggered by an unexpected casus belli, but instead a decision that is intended to change the strategic equation between Israel and the Hamas regime in Gaza.

Nor was it a completely unreasonable exercise of political suicide, because the legacy of the unsuccessful attempt by Israel to destroy Hezbollah in 2006 is that the Israeli military machine has been devoted for the first time in the history of the country, to advocating containment and to oppose tougher measures proposed in the meetings of the council of ministers. The army did not want this war, it was resigned to the inevitability. The strength of Israel to launch a massive attack against the Hamas regime in Gaza stems from a detailed analysis of the limits of what can be achieved by force, to the point that the minister Barak was willing to pay a high political price in the middle of election season, to accept a new truce, even if the Hamas violated it intermittently.

A military attack on a strip of land so small and so densely populated, in which Hamas has systematically used civilians as human shields, will without a choice submit the Israeli army to accusations of war crimes. However justified the actions of Israel, and no matter how much the international community criticizes the repressive and obscurantist Hamas in Gaza, it will take little to see that the coverage of civilian casualties in the media will put Israel, and not Hamas, in the pillory of international opinion. Israel would prefer to avoid at all costs a massive invasion, if only because the reoccupation of Gaza would mean having to assume sole responsibility of one and a half million Palestinians who now live under the control of Hamas.

But while Israel may be willing to absorb the cost of harsh international condemnation, it is unclear what a real victory in a war like this is. Is it a realistic option in overthrowing the regime of Hamas? Perhaps the fall of an Ismail Hanyieh government, but Hamas would remain a powerful natural product of Palestine bringing together the people around them. Even under a new Israeli occupation, the occupant could suffer the ultimate humiliation if they continue to launch Kassam missiles while the Israeli armored divisions are deployed in the strip.

And finally, after you have a dealt fatal blow to what remained of the peace process and cemeteries in Israel and a re-torn Gaza filled with victims, Israel would like to get out of this trap and re-negotiate another cease fire ... with the same Hamas.

A shame that politicians trying to win elections is one of the pushing reasons for the death of over 300 people, and much worse, that, over 300 people will die, and nothing will be gained of it.

[Meat]

Fuck that, Gaza weren't yours to begin with. I am really starting to sympathize with the Palestinians.

Do you know how Israel got to be in control of Gaza? There is and should always be a penalty to waging war

[Chen]

israel = jews

jews = evil?

pretty sure you guys just wasted alot of time discussing this

[Elvis]

As to the joke/notion of returning America to the Native Americans - look, this is the shadiness of the nation-state system.

I can't think of one nation-state that wasn't formed through deception and violence and hamburglary.

Now, do we have a right to be here? Yes I think we do. I don't want to see all of Israel returned to the Palestinians because people have been living there for 60 years now. This doesn't mean I think Israel is a great place and blah blah.

But we need some consistency. We have international law now. We have the World Court now. We have solidarity movements, the Declaration of Human Rights, etc. : basically institutions that are supposed to promote justice and fairness.

We have made tremendous gains towards a more civilized world.

These progressive institutions were not in existence around the time of the Euro-American colonization of Native American land.

So the past is the past. Context, remember.

Israel is under intense scrutiny because the rules have changed. I think that's a good thing.

[Rhinox]

How does that help your argument at all? I don't condone what my ancestors did, and what Europeans did to the Native Americans is no excuse or justification to what Israel is doing. Are you suggesting the weak should just die and be deprived of their homes and possessions? It's so irony coming from Iraeli government supporters.

My point is its easy to pick and choose sides from the comfort of our own home. When we have done worse shit then the Israelis. We actually committed genocide. Unless you live in constant fear of being blown to shit on a daily basis while you're waiting for a bus or having coffee and surfing the net hell even at a movie theatre you really don't know anything.

Did Israel over-react? Of course they did. To completely absolve the Palestinians from the blame of the shit thats going on is just fucking retarded.

I'm not taking either sides I just hate people who are pretentious enough to presume one side is guiltier then they other.

[Elvis]

I think whenever people discuss ways to solve conflicts - keyword: solve not fight - they will come off as pretentious.

In fact, when we talk about these things we lose (stealing from Chomsky here) an element of our humanity.

Here we are, safe in our tree-house, talking about Armageddon on the other side of the world and offering our advice.

We try to be as antiseptic as possible. It's just unavoidable.

[Kuya]

To completely absolve the Palestinians from the blame of the shit thats going on is just fucking retarded.

Blaming the Palestinians of what? Getting bombed?

Everyone takes sides, you imbecile, that is inevitable. You're either placing the gravity of the blame on the Israeli government, Hamas, or you're blaming something else, you can even blame all of these but you will no doubt place blame in different degrees.

[Demosthenes11]

proportional response is stupid to expect when you are outside america. Sure, maybe most of our citizens may believe in a punch for a punch, but it really ends there. When someone countries are even poked, they like to leave the other in a heap of blood on the ground so they don't do that shit again.

Frankly it's none of our business. Cut funding for Israel and let the area do what it needs to do to have some stability, even if it means a mass war/conflict for a while.

all the talk about civilians and children is such a scapegoat argument. People die in conflicts like this. Many will be civilians and children. It's a product of conflict/war and will always be.

[Rhinox]

Blaming the Palestinians of what? Getting bombed?

Are you serious? you seriously can't be this retarded.

Like Zbigniew Brzezinski said to Joe Scarborough. your knowledge of the shit thats going in over theres is so superficial that its embarrassing. You form your opinion on what? Bias Newspapers? Shit over there is more complicated then what you are suggesting its not as black and white as you are seeing it.

[Churchill]

Do you know how Israel got to be in control of Gaza? There is and should always be a penalty to waging war

I know that we shouldn't have gave the Jews Israel after WWII.

Or, got involved in WWII.

Or, support Israel and other Arab nations in the way that we do.

And yes, the jews and muslims killing each other off is a very good solution, because then Americans are fine, and that's all our governments role should be - to protect the rights, liberties, and safety of Americans.

[Kuya]

Are you serious? you seriously can't be this retarded.

Go on, tell us what you blame the Palestinians for, mister you shouldn't be a pretentious twat and presume.

By the way, it's nice to know you're so prudent, what with saying i'm retarded. Do you often make light of people with mental disabilities by calling others retarded? Or is your ability to be so open minded, so limited?

[Elvis]

Stopping the Nazis was one of the best things we've ever done. They didn't kill just Jews. It was anyone they deemed inferior.

We also stopped Imperial Japan in the process.

The problem is that we became an Imperial power in the aftermath.

[Rhinox]

Go on, tell us what you blame the Palestinians for, mister you shouldn't be a pretentious twat and presume.

By the way, it's nice to know you're so prudent, what with saying i'm retarded. Do you often make light of people with mental disabilities by calling others retarded? Or is your ability to be so open minded, so limited?

did I hurt your feelings? I'm sorry next time I'll a lighter word like imbecile or moron K?

[Kuya]

Like Zbigniew Brzezinski said to Joe Scarborough. your knowledge of the shit thats going in over theres is so superficial that its embarrassing. You form your opinion on what? Bias Newspapers? Shit over there is more complicated then what you are suggesting its not as black and white as you are seeing it.

Do you live there? Or are you the kind of fool who walks into a thread and says that everybody is wrong because none of us are personally involved and that everybody is to blame like the kind of idiotic bottom dweller who is so lacking in imagination that he needs to say the most obvious so he can seem intelligent?

[The Stig]

Thanks to 0ni0n and Firas who replied to my space for crafts idea, I really had no idea. Improves my small knowledge somewhat.

[0ni0n]

My point is its easy to pick and choose sides from the comfort of our own home. When we have done worse shit then the Israelis. We actually committed genocide. Unless you live in constant fear of being blown to shit on a daily basis while you're waiting for a bus or having coffee and surfing the net hell even at a movie theatre you really don't know anything.

Did Israel over-react? Of course they did. To completely absolve the Palestinians from the blame of the shit thats going on is just fucking retarded.

I'm not taking either sides I just hate people who are pretentious enough to presume one side is guiltier then they other.

Here's a scenario, me being a jew in israel and you being a palestinian. I moved into your house and have been gradually taking over your home and possessions in last 6 months. You kicked my ass and asked me to move out. I refused and killed your some of your family members. And you can't blame me doing that because you instigated the attack by kicking my ass first.

Do you see how stupid your argument is? I thought so.

[Kuya]

did I hurt your feelings? I'm sorry next time I'll a lighter word like imbecile or moron K?

Basically what i'm saying is that you're an imbecile, yes. It's easy to say that nobody's at fault or that everybody's at fault, which is why you're an imbecile, because you say things that are a given and then act as if you're privy to some information that no one else is. So you're an imbecile.

And when do you intend to tell us what you blame the Palestinians for, huh sport?

[Cephius]

I know that we shouldn't have gave the Jews Israel after WWII.

Or, got involved in WWII.

Or, support Israel and other Arab nations in the way that we do.

And yes, the jews and muslims killing each other off is a very good solution, because then Americans are fine, and that's all our governments role should be - to protect the rights, liberties, and safety of Americans.

Yeah, fuck world war 2. It's not like a country leveled our pacific fleet in a surprise attack in response to economic sanctions or anything. If they had done that, THEN we would have been justified! Oh... wait...

We should just let everyone overseas kill each other, because that kind of thing could never spread here. Conflicts never cross oceans.

[Elvis]

CUE UNCLE BEN:

WITH GREAT POWER COMES GREAT RESPONSIBILITY!

whoops caps. too lazy to backspace yet ill keep typing this .

[MrW]

Yeah! Like the movie Outbreak. That shit was out of control. Thank goodness for Dustin Hoffman and Rene Russo