Yuki/Gekko/Kasha Attack bonus Testing

[Yarko]

It's added to the base damage, just a WS mod, 50% Str/Vit for Steel, 50% Str/Int for Gstrike, everything else seems identical between them besides the SC placement.

Oh I misread what you said, nevermind.

Anyway, did some DRK WSs testing today and the results were as follows:

Spinning Slash - 1.5 multiplier

Ground Strike - 1.66 / 1.75 multiplier (need further testing, leaning more towards 1.66 though)

Spiral Hell - no multiplier (1.00)

Cross Reaper - no multiplier (1.00)

This time I didn't try to vary my attack to see if its an actual multiplier or a straight +attack, but I believe it's safe to assume it's a multiplier now.

Nameless if you ever do those tests, let me know if you get the same results as me.

[Nameless]

From my previous test it seems like spinning slash is a 200 flat attack bonus. I will test it on crab a bit more to see which fits better.

[WraithLakshmi]

10 data points is no where near enough to draw any conclusions from. You need a lot more data before you can attempt to propose a theory.

[Zoolander]

I'm just curious what you guys think the results of this should be as far as how we should approach gearing ourselves for Tachi: Gekko.

I mean, I know I don't fully understand the formulas, but it seems to me that if it does indeed double your attack essentially, you are faced with the question of whether it would be better to add more STR or stick with attack as well? Specifically, Osode vs Hauby/+1 and Smilodon +1 vs Foragers.

Every attack you add is doubled (in this theory), so like Hauby+1 on WS would add 33ish attack along with the 6 STR while Osode would add 15ish attack along with 10 STR. Even though you do have an obscene amount of attack, would you rather be adding the attack or go to a more pure STR build?

[Sylvrdragon]

From what I understand about pointy stick fighting (which is little), it depends on what you're fighting and what your pDif looks like. If you're already capped on attack on a certain mob (as in, your ATK versus their DEF, not to be confused with the 999 ATK "cap" that Gekko breaks, as mentioned earlier) then you'd get more mileage from using Smilo+1.

I think it's sort of counter intuitive. This thread basically says that Gekko boosts your ATK enough on it's own that you pretty much don't have to bother adding more ATK of your own, and can concentrate more on boosting the mods (depending on the target, of course).

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

[ringthree]

I usually parse my farming sessions, and I always fight the same mobs while doing it, keep gear consistent and use no buffs. Would these parses be helpful for data collection?

[Tubbers]

(results for Ushikirimaru are a bit off, I suspect that the real Base Damage for Ushi is somehow 100, but it doesn't matter).

Typo? 100 base Damage is a huge leap from:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...hikirimaru.png

[Phraust]

This great and all, but can you tell us why kids like Cinnamon Tost Crunch so much?

(and why Kaiten sucks royal donkey phallus?)

[VZX]

Typo? 100 base Damage is a huge leap from:
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/ff...hikirimaru.png

He meant weapon damage + capped fSTR

[WraithLakshmi]

Kaiten is inferior to Gekko on anything with a high defense, aka things where your pDIF will not be capped. The pDIF bonus of gekko breaks through that and lets you get good numbers. On weaker enemies where Defense is not such an issue, Kaiten will outperform Gekko.

I'm in the process of testing all 3 of the WS's. I'm taking 100 data points of each, all done with the same gear, all WS done between 100 and 110tp on DC and EM steelshells. So far, the theories proposed by the OP are looking to be closer to the truth than what most of us had previously thought. I still need to finish the set for Kasha, but over 100 samples, the average Gekko was almost 150 higher than the average Yukikaze. So far, Kasha is indeed looking to be somewhere in between those two. I'll post all my results and calculations when I'm done.

[Sydneysam]

Kaiten is inferior to Gekko on anything with a high defense, aka things where your pDIF will not be capped. The pDIF bonus of gekko breaks through that and lets you get good numbers. On weaker enemies where Defense is not such an issue, Kaiten will outperform Gekko.

I'm in the process of testing all 3 of the WS's. I'm taking 100 data points of each, all done with the same gear, all WS done between 100 and 110tp on DC and EM steelshells. So far, the theories proposed by the OP are looking to be closer to the truth than what most of us had previously thought. I still need to finish the set for Kasha, but over 100 samples, the average Gekko was almost 150 higher than the average Yukikaze. So far, Kasha is indeed looking to be somewhere in between those two. I'll post all my results and calculations when I'm done.

Kaiten will only outperform ever on mobs with weakness to light but it's apple and oranges considering Gekko has diff modifiers and will drasticly change the playing field between the two which goes without saying obviously.

I've done about a million test with various GK and buff setup's and gear setups and the problem is consistantcy and until that happens I can never give someoe the "perfect formula" on what works best for them unless they have the same everything all you can do is generalize the best you can based of your expieriences. You say the Gekko was almost 150 higher than the average Yukikaze and Kasha is indeed looking to be somewhere in between those two, but in reality if you see the facts they all in fact have the same STR modifiers and damage multipliers by tp and should all do the same damage period. Any variations you are seeing are either due to based element and if said mob is more or less resistant to that or the obviouse jump in dmg due to proc or w/e the mob is buffed with. Point of fact, its all situational and in my honest opinion why every sam says they always see an higher average on gekko is usually always dei to the fact is gekko is mostly used. I can garantee you if you used yuki or kasha more than gekko you would be sayig the same for them.

Ok my head hurts and i'm sure noone will read all of that but yeah my 2c.

Now to posts my thoughts on J.torque vs Gorget... OH YES I WENT THERE!

[Saivan]

Kaiten will only outperform ever on mobs with weakness to light

Wait, wut?

I hear Madawc cheering you on from somewhere near KI's general direction.

I've done about a million test with various GK and buff setup's and gear setups and the problem is consistantcy and until that happens I can never give someoe the "perfect formula" on what works best for them unless they have the same everything all you can do is generalize the best you can based of your expieriences. You say the Gekko was almost 150 higher than the average Yukikaze and Kasha is indeed looking to be somewhere in between those two, but in reality if you see the facts they all in fact have the same STR modifiers and damage multipliers by tp and should all do the same damage period. Any variations you are seeing are either due to based element and if said mob is more or less resistant to that or the obviouse jump in dmg due to proc or w/e the mob is buffed with. Point of fact, its all situational and in my honest opinion why every sam says they always see an higher average on gekko is usually always dei to the fact is gekko is mostly used. I can garantee you if you used yuki or kasha more than gekko you would be sayig the same for them.

Everything said here is irrelevant considering the current proper testing is leaning towards Gekko having a higher average damage than Yuki/Kasha when pDIF is not capped. Once it's finalized, we will make a conclusion based on the results, but currently that's where we are.

And your "variations due to base element" theory is null because if it was true, Gekko would automatically average lower than Yuki because it has Reverberation properties, and these tests were done on Crabs.... and I hope you weren't referring to the elemental debuffs of YGK, in which case Kasha would average higher than Gekko due to Paralyze being Ice element.

Actually I can't believe I even addressed that theory at all.

Wow.

[Sydneysam]

Wait, wut?

I hear Madawc cheering you on from somewhere near KI's general direction.




Everything said here is irrelevant considering the current proper testing is leaning towards Gekko having a higher average damage than Yuki/Kasha when pDIF is not capped. Once it's finalized, we will make a conclusion based on the results, but currently that's where we are.

And your "variations due to base element" theory is null because if it was true, Gekko would automatically average lower than Yuki because it has Reverberation properties, and these tests were done on Crabs.... and I hope you weren't referring to the elemental debuffs of YGK, in which case Kasha would average higher than Gekko due to Paralyze being Ice element.

Actually I can't believe I even addressed that theory at all.

Wow.

"current proper testing is leaning towards Gekko having a higher average damage than Yuki/Kasha when pDIF is not capped."

This has been proven long ago I was just generalizing my thoughts I had overall on all three types. Not to mention my numbers would be higher I find the testing to be null either way.

[Saivan]

I think that you are misinterpreting the purpose of the testing...

The TP and stat modifiers are already proven and everyone here knows this and what they are. That is not what is being tested.

YGK (and some other one-hit WSs) seem to have some sort of extra hidden pDIF multiplier or ignore defense property within the damage formula, that would not have been noticed nor possible to test on Ronfaure bunnies because your pDIF is already capped from the SAWSs. This is why controlled tests are being performed on Steelshells post-Scissor Guard; your pDIF will be nowhere near capped. Any differences between Yuki/Gekko/Kasha will be noticed via average damage over the course of 100+ WSs, and the damage can be reverse-math'd (I like that word) to find the actual damage formula for each one.

I really don't think you read the thread at all.

Edit: I reread your post again. It's like you saw the math involved and went "derp on 2 the next post lol".

[Sydneysam]

I think that you are misinterpreting the purpose of the testing...

The TP and stat modifiers are already proven and everyone here knows this and what they are. That is not what is being tested.

YGK (and some other one-hit WSs) seem to have some sort of extra hidden pDIF multiplier or ignore defense property within the damage formula, that would not have been noticed nor possible to test on Ronfaure bunnies because your pDIF is already capped from the SAWSs. This is why controlled tests are being performed on Steelshells post-Scissor Guard; your pDIF will be nowhere near capped. Any differences between Yuki/Gekko/Kasha will be noticed via average damage over the course of 100+ WSs, and the damage can be reverse-math'd (I like that word) to find the actual damage formula for each one.

"I really don't think you read the thread at all."

Edit: I reread your post again. It's like you saw the math involved and went "derp on 2 the next post lol".

I really don't think you read the thread at all.

Despite what you think I did, but like I said this has been proven already. I'm not going to sit here and argue with you over the math but capping on anything realisticly not just "crabs" (which in theory can be applied to other mobs where pDIF will be nowhere near capped blah blah) is what I care about and not nearly enough testing was done here for anything concrete anyways.

[Yarko]

10 data points is no where near enough to draw any conclusions from. You need a lot more data before you can attempt to propose a theory.

As I said somewhere in my posts, I was focussing mostly on Gekko of which I had about 80 data points in total I believe. My goal was not to find out the exact multipliers for Yuki/Kasha, but those 20 data points were enough to notice a far inferior multiplier compared to Gekko, and give an estimation.

I collected more data in my free time for Yuki/Kasha some days ago (about 40 data points for each, 20 with berserk and 20 without) and the multipliers seem to be closer to 1.50 for Yuki and 1.60 for Kasha... waiting to see your results.
Keep in mind that if your attack is higher than 405 and the 2.00 gekko mod is exact, you're gonna be capped on attack on DC steelshells.

From my previous test it seems like spinning slash is a 200 flat attack bonus. I will test it on crab a bit more to see which fits better.

Can you please link your test? I'd like to see that data

I'm just curious what you guys think the results of this should be as far as how we should approach gearing ourselves for Tachi: Gekko.

Well attack on Gekko is going to be capped in those situations where your atk is higher than (1,15 + Correction / 2) * Mob's Def

where Correction is Lv Difference between you and the monster (if the monster is higher LV than you) * 0.05 ....so

@ about 450 attack in Merits situations

@ 650ish attack on HNMs like Gods and Cerb/Khim/etc assuming they don't have more than 450 defense

and so on...

once you reach that attack, according to these tests, adding more attack won't do anything.

As for Gekko vs Kaiten questions:

I did some maths and well, using gorgets, Amano Kaiten at 100TP is better than Hagun Gekko at 100TP if

ATK > (1,5 + Correction) * Mob's Def

So yeah, Kaiten is better than Gekko against low def/lv mobs like limbus, einherjar, merits, and so on, but is beaten by Gekko on HNMs unless you can reach something like 900 attack

[Saivan]

I really don't think you read the thread at all.

Despite what you think I did, but like I said this has been proven already. I'm not going to sit here and argue with you over the math but capping on anything realisticly not just "crabs" (which in theory can be applied to other mobs where pDIF will be nowhere near capped blah blah) is what I care about and not nearly enough testing was done here for anything concrete anyways.

Capped pDIF testing for WS modifiers and multipliers has been tried and proven through and through.

Uncapped pDIF testing to solve for specific values of pDIF multipliers in one-hit WSs is still incomplete.

If "it's been proven," please redirect everyone in this thread to the appropriate link/thread/site/test/file, etc. that will show us any information that isn't already known.

Otherwise, no, you didn't read the thread at all.

[Phraust]

[...]

So yeah, Kaiten is better than Gekko against low def/lv mobs like limbus, einherjar, merits, and so on, but is beaten by Gekko on HNMs unless you can reach something like 900 attack

Even then, from what I've gathered (and sort of seen personally) if you had 900 attack, Gekko > Kaiten Hands down. it seriously seems liek there's a math error somewhere in Kaiten's math, which is why I am so interested in this thread. If there's any info I can get you or go out and collect that could get me an explaination on why I hit for zero to double digits on JoL with close to the best gear in the game, (maybe missing songs sure) or like max in the 300's on a mob like faf, versus doing 700 ish on JoL with Gekko or more on faf i'd be happy.... It has driven me nuts since I got the damn thing. It makes no sense how Gekko can do 100% to 8,000% more damage than kaiten on HNM and yet Kaiten does about 10% - 20% more on regular mobs.

[WraithLakshmi]

Ok, I finished collecting my data.

• 100 data points were taken for each WS.
• All fights were against DC or EM steelshells, so I approximated by using the stats of the level 74 ones.
• All WS were done between 100 and 110 tp, with the majority at exactly 100.
• No WS were counted while Scissor guard was up.
• Exactly the same gear was used for Gekko and Yukikaze. Kasha was used with chivalrous chain instead of a gorget, but I account for that in calculation.

Results

First thing's first: the new calculation for pDIF(max) appears to be cRatio x 1.35, and pDIF(min) appears to be pDIF(max)-1. This needs more testing to be sure, but it fit the values I got for my melee strikes.

Gekko:
Unfortunately, I hit the pDIF cap on Gekko, so I'm not 100% sure what my actual pDIF(max) would be. Extrapolating from the pDIF(min) I would assume it would be 1.0 higher.

Theoretical pDIF(max) = (410/360)*1.35 = 1.5375
Theoretical pDIF(min) = .5375

Highest observed Gekko: 651
651 = (40+ floor((121-94+4)/4)+floor(121*.75*.83))*1.6625*1.19*pDIF(max)
Observed pDIF(max) ≈ 2.7
2.7/1.5375 ≈ 1.75

Lowest obsered Gekko: 449
449 = (40+ floor((121-94+4)/4)+floor(121*.75*.83))*1.6625*1.19*pDIF(min)
Observed pDIF(min) ≈ 1.86
1.86/.5375 ≈ 3.46

Yukikaze:
Theoretical pDIF(max) = 1.5375
Theoretical pDIF(min) = .5375

Highest observed Yukikaze: 515
515 = (40+ floor((121-94+4)/4)+floor(121*.75*.83))*1.6625*1.19*pDIF(max)
Observed pDIF(max) ≈ 2.13
2.13/1.5375 ≈ 1.39

Lowest obsered Yukikaze: 308
308 = (40+ floor((121-94+4)/4)+floor(121*.75*.83))*1.6625*1.19*pDIF(min)
Observed pDIF(min) ≈ 1.28
1.28/.5375 ≈ 2.38

Kasha:
Theoretical pDIF(max) = 1.54875
Theoretical pDIF(min) = .54875

Highest observed Kasha: 557
557 = (40+ floor((121-94+4)/4)+floor(121*.75*.83))*1.6625*1.19*pDIF(max)
Observed pDIF(max) ≈ 2.40
2.40/1.54875 ≈ 1.5496

Lowest obsered Kasha: 342
342 = (40+ floor((121-94+4)/4)+floor(121*.75*.83))*1.6625*1.19*pDIF(min)
Observed pDIF(min) ≈ 1.47
1.47/.54875 ≈ 2.68

Observations:
I think it's clear to see that this is not just a % increase to pDIF, seeing as how pDIF(min) is not scaling the same as pDIF(max). Instead, the entire graph is shifting, indicating either a flat pDIF bonus, or a quantifiable "ignores defense." From my calculations, Kasha appears to ignore 35% or 130 defense, Yukikaze 28% or 100 defense, and Gekko 160 or 45%. Whether it's a percentage or exact number I can't say until we test on various mobs.

Conclusions:

• The new equation to calculate pDIF(max) appears to be cRatio*1.35 (more verification needed)
• Gekko, Yukikaze, and Kasha are NOT equal in terms of damage potential
• Gekko ignores either 45% or a flat 160 defense.
• Kasha ignores either 35% or a flat 130 defense.
• Yukikaze ignores either 28% or a flat 100 defense.
• The new pDIF cap on non critical hits is 2.7
• The variance in pDIF appears to now be 1.0 instead of .8 like it used to be

If anyone finds any errors in anything I did, please let me know.

[Sylvrdragon]

Ok, I finished collecting my data.

• No WS were counted while Scissor guard was up.
  

Unfortunately, I hit the pDIF cap on Gekko, so I'm not 100% sure what my actual pDIF(max) would be. Extrapolating from the pDIF(min) I would assume it would be 1.0 higher.

If anyone finds any errors in anything I did, please let me know.

I thought the point was make sure that Scissor Guard WAS up specifically so your pDif WASN'T capped. Forgive me if I'm wrong.