PLD/RDM: Why?

[Tsuko_Asura]

If this doesn't qualify for Advanced, feel free to move it to Standard. My target audience is really the more experienced players, though. I'll leave it to moderators' discretion.

So, PLD/RDM has been a concept that eluded my understanding for quite some time. Partially because it seemed like a step backwards induced predominantly in an effort to revitalize blood-tanking, but mostly because I just didn't ever feel like doing the math to see if it is actually an intelligent move.

Well, after speaking with Kaeko for a while, he gave me a brief overview of what conditions must be met for it to be a net gain in enmity(which is, to the best of my knowledge, the overall goal). After getting home, I ran some more exact numbers based on the average, above average Paladin(if that makes any sense at all), and came to the conclusion that as long as one isn't taking more than ~2,500 damage/minute, there is a definitely net gain of cumulative enmity, which is obviously something the job struggles to build compared to other tanking classes. I had considered the fact that you're pretty much throwing MP-efficiency out the window, but also tried to keep in mind that there really are an incredible number of ways for one to regenerate their MP these days, so its not that big of a deal.

On to the point.

Its of this person's humble opinion that as far actual damage mitigation goes, a Paladin really isn't that far ahead of the class, so to speak. Sentinel and shield skill really do amazing things to reduce physical intake, but as someone who does so on a regular basis, Its not really that difficult to do the same on other jobs, even if it is to a slightly lesser degree. The thing that I personally believe the job has going for it is its ability to be multifaceted. A properly prepared Paladin can and will participate in a quite significant amount of an alliance's damage output. This has always been a reality, simply by virtue of them swinging away with their swords, and has multiplied 10-fold with the coming of Atonement(Excalibur is an entirely different story). This is just something that the other two accepted tanking classes cannot participate in as effectively, not by a long shot. And what's better, Paladin doesn't really need to sacrifice a great deal of durability to do so; you can still be the same fantastic tank, just with the added perk of actually appearing on the parser.

My question is this: When Paladin is already excellent at maintaining a target's focus, why would we try to slightly improve one's ability to do so, at the cost of their secondary potential? For PLD/RDM to work, one must constantly be in a casting-cycle, which, given that said spells are already subject to very minuscule recast times, means you're going to be wearing significantly less haste equipment at any given time. Not only does it take away the ability to improve upon your damage output that was available from the get-go, it eliminates the possibility of extra steps(Accuracy) to enhance it as well. How does one idle in haste/accuracy and allow themselves to swing their weapon when one is literally never idle? Why better your ability to do something you already have minimal issues with, while almost completely forfeiting your potential in other avenues of the role?

Anyway, as I said, I'm just looking for the opinions of anyone who feels this concerns them. Have at it.

[Max™]

Why not?

Variety?

Sometimes Pld/Nin gets boring?

It's fun to see a monster hit you for pipsqueak damage.

Plus the whole CE spam is great for certain fights (JoL/Ouryu), and turned into something altogether different with an Aegis.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Err, I suppose I should include that I'm not talking about things you(generally) don't melee. JoL and Ouryu don't count, for what I'm referring to.

[Meat]

Simple answer, it's fun. Pld =\= nin you know, I want to man up the the mob's hits, I want to put my shield at work.

[Max™]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/ffxi-...6-pld-rdm.html

[Tsuko_Asura]

http://www.bluegartr.com/forum/ffxi-...6-pld-rdm.html

I'm aware how it functions, I'm simply inquiring as to the reason behind its use in the first place.

"Its fun" is exactly the type of thing I'm looking for. Go on.

[Cloudius]

I coulda sworn you made this same topic before..

[Tsuko_Asura]

I coulda sworn you made this same topic before..

Heh, that was in regard to the prerequisites to making blood-tanking actually work, not so much why people do it.

[bercus]

We use PLD/RDM and a NIN/DRK for Ouryu. Basically there is no need for PLD/NIN, because Shadows are useless in the air anyway. Same for PLD/WAR, because PLD/RDM can generate a lot more hate while Ouryu is sleeping, with at the same time, lose less hate then PLD/WAR. Our PLD/RDM has a build for everything doing so. Stoneskin, Phalanx, Hate spell cycle. Not like your going to use PLD/RDM for many things.

[willriker]

I enjoy PLD/RDM in few events. Either events which i need to hold hate on many enemies, events where i will be not taking melee damage, events which it will be possible to take 0 damage with phalanx and a shiled block. Events like:

Dynamis
Einherjar
JoL
and Campaing (if you can call it an event)

For Dynamis/Einherjar my main goal is to keep enemies off the mages that are sleeping them until another tank grabs hate. Only to have some melee Rawr RAMPAGE it off the main tank lol. With these events, the job is simple. Generate enough enmity to over come the enmity a mage hase from sleepga/sleepga2/horde lullaby, or w/e single target sleep. Dealing damage is not important for me in this situation. but i do want to survive long enough for a mage to put them back to sleep without agro on themselves.

I find the low recast spell to be quite nice in this situation. Spam spells to get on multiple hate lists for little MP and in record time compared to any other sub without an aga. then pop a self cure to ensure you have hate. And you often have enmough enmity to keep hate through two sleepgas worth of time. Plenty to of time to kill off quite a few enemies in the wave while you rest back up. Bolster this with phalanx/stoneskin/sentinel/shield and I find it is more than enough damage resistance to survive just fine. But, as you can imagine, you really wont want to go around attacking enemies till you have hate on all of them. Heck, i dont even want to wake them up.

With JoL, you will not be close enough to strike the enemy. You literaly just stand back and spam spells to keep hate off melee/mages. Occasionaly you pop on some resist gear to reduce magical damage recieved. At any rate you want a sub job which can pump out the most hate possible per unit time. I honestly feal a rdm subjob is up really high on the list of options. Mix that with a natualy magic defence bonus, barspells, blink and stoneskin and you have a rather nice sub for this fight. But once again, its not possible to generate enmity with your weapon.

For enemies which it is possible to get hit for 0 on a shield block enhanced with phalanx/stoneskin and all that you lose 0 hate. 0 damage dealt to you reduces your HP by 0 percent, and so there is no hate lost. In short your CE only goes up as you are getting hit for 0 damage. Thats less CE loss than /nin provides. So, focusing on spells which pump out he most CE is great. Dispel/Sleep/Flash. I usualy find spamming high VE spells to be a waste of time when this situation occurs.

However to make this situation happen more often i find that i need to sacrifics many gear slots to shield and minus % damage taken. You know, Jelly ring, askar boots, that type of stuff. I realy dont veiw VE to be any sort of issue with some enmity gear on, and focus on CE generation/preservation through 0 or low damage taken. So, sword strikes do enter the equation here as you arent spamming blind every 3 seconds.

Personaly, i believe that anything /war can tank, /rdm can tank better. I wouldnt want to go out and tank Taimat on /war, nor would i want to tank taimat as /rdm. But if your talking about lesser enemies, like fafhog. I would definately say it can be done quite well with a rdm sub. Personaly i wouldnt, id stick with a ninja sub for that, but just saying that i wouldnt be shocked to hear someone say that they tanked fafhog on PLD/RDM and found it to be easier than on PLD/WAR. Thats all.

[Kumaccio]

pld/rdm its really fun with a well geared pld
many of the "weak" hnm around can be tanked with a pld/rdm...it makes your paladin a real pld not a shielded ninja...
Try Ixion with /rdm,it will be funnier and safer if you have enough support(refresh+ballads)!
Apart from ixion/sandworm you can low ppl and duo/solo most of the nms around vana diel.Go try it and have fun ,/rdm is da way!
Apart from jokes,with the right setup you are a machine.

[Korremar]

Well-geared PLD/RDM can solo KA, if nothing else.

[Ferien]

I think willriker basically has it spot-on, anything /war can tank, /rdm can tank better. The caveats are that it's either in a situation where bloodtanking is either recommended or forced (it doesn't make it viable where it wasn't already), or in one where you're holding multiple mobs at a time for someone else to tank afterwards (Dynamis or Einherjar). Personally, besides solo, I use it for Ouryu, Dynamis, Einherjar, and whenever we finally get to it, JoL.

For Dynamis and Einherjar, I like it better because it not only makes it easier to get on the table for multiple mobs, but once you're there it's easier to build hate on them. /WAR or /NIN, you'd have to either spend abilities or extra MP with cureswaps to build hate. /RDM, you have barspells (along with the abilities and cureswaps). These can be spammed ad infinitum for more VE (and by extension, since you're casting more of them, CE) than Provoke, and it'll give you hate on all of the mobs instead of just one. Also, you can keep them going forever with just one form of outside refresh. Cures are probably more hate, but in these situations it's not about tanking the mobs, it's about keeping them off the mages until someone else takes over.

[Olo401]

From a healer's view, I like PLD/RDM a lot better vs. the more scatter-brained mobs like Ixion. Since the tank can hold hate better, it allows us to focus more on them instead of the others in the group who might otherwise pull hate and get people killed.

[Grey Jorildyn]

PLD/RDM does a lot better with particular support rather than the standard tank parties. My personal favorite would be:

PLD/RDM
SCH/RDM
RDM/WHM
BRD

I've found I don't need the marches when I tank /rdm. They'd be nice for Reprisal, but generally I can manage without that due anyway. SCH can provide me with Stoneskin and Phalanx better than I can while actively tanking and the RDM can haste me. There really isn't a need for a WHM, and if I had to choose between a WHM or a BRD for a 6th (assuming 5th is another PLD), I'd probably take the BRD for Marches or do Victory/Advancing/Ballad II/Madrigal for Atonement spam or just keep the second Ballad for something like Ixion.

Question regarding my setup though -- is a Minne a better choice as 4th song or don't bother?

[Tsuko_Asura]

PLD/RDM does a lot better with particular support rather than the standard tank parties. My personal favorite would be:

PLD/RDM
SCH/RDM
RDM/WHM
BRD

I've found I don't need the marches when I tank /rdm. They'd be nice for Reprisal, but generally I can manage without that due anyway. SCH can provide me with Stoneskin and Phalanx better than I can while actively tanking and the RDM can haste me. There really isn't a need for a WHM, and if I had to choose between a WHM or a BRD for a 6th (assuming 5th is another PLD), I'd probably take the BRD for Marches or do Victory/Advancing/Ballad II/Madrigal for Atonement spam or just keep the second Ballad for something like Ixion.

Question regarding my setup though -- is a Minne a better choice as 4th song or don't bother?

From my limited experience, I don't really notice a difference between having 480 DEF and having 600+, but that's on RDM.



For all of those responding, try to keep the core of the question in mind: why hold hate slightly better at the cost of a significant amount of damage?

[Valkrish]

pld/rdm

its the same reason when bards used to sub /nin and kite/tank

(almost) :3

[Ferien]

From my limited experience, I don't really notice a difference between having 480 DEF and having 600+, but that's on RDM.



For all of those responding, try to keep the core of the question in mind: why hold hate slightly better at the cost of a significant amount of damage?

In the situations I use /RDM for, I was never in a position to do damage in the first place, so it doesn't matter. It's either for mobs that are sleeping (Dynamis, Einherjar) or mobs that you can't melee anyway (Ouryu, JoL). In the first case, when it comes down to the last mob in a group, I will generally pull out my sword and throw on melee gear, but that's about it.

The way I see it, if it can be done /WAR, it can be done better /RDM. However, if it should be done /NIN, it should still be done /NIN regardless, and /RDM is never better in those situations.

[Lancealittle]

From my limited experience, I don't really notice a difference between having 480 DEF and having 600+, but that's on RDM.



For all of those responding, try to keep the core of the question in mind: why hold hate slightly better at the cost of a significant amount of damage?

Because playing the game 1 way every day can get so damn boring... where is the imagination, where is the adventure? Hell i'll even /drk just for Stuns to tank and be a goof ball... this game isn't that hard (besides the unbeatables), you can afford to mix it up and try new avenues when you prove to do the job. "OMG a melee pulled hate for 2 seconds and got pink socked..." so what? Hell its even worth a laugh sometimes.

All your posts on KI and here suggests we should all be /nin, wearing max haste gear, using Excal or Joyeuse for Atonement spam, and we should all do this because the "math equations of enmity up" tell us too. Sorry, but most are not this monotonous.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Because playing the game 1 way every day can get so damn boring... where is the imagination, where is the adventure? Hell i'll even /drk just for Stuns to tank and be a goof ball... this game isn't that hard (besides the unbeatables), you can afford to mix it up and try new avenues when you prove to do the job. "OMG a melee pulled hate for 2 seconds and got pink socked..." so what? Hell its even worth a laugh sometimes.

All your posts on KI and here suggests we should all be /nin, wearing max haste gear, using Excal or Joyeuse for Atonement spam, and we should all do this because the "math equations of enmity up" tell us too. Sorry, but most are not this monotonous.

This is for inquiry, nothing else. Everyone is free to play how they see fit.

And I do have a predisposition towards neglecting damage, but its least of all about one's enmity. As I said, the ability to significantly contribute to your alliance's damage output is what I believe sets Paladin apart from tanks that can have an easier time accumulating hate. A trait that again, in my opinion, makes it the overall superior tanking class, but is unfortunately rarely utilized.