PLD/RDM: Why?

[Hosom]

Watched TheAfterLife use a Pld/Rdm tank on Cerb (Whcorona/Godwulf) avg normal hits on shield procs seemed to be around 30, crits around 50. Normal hits without shield procs were at about 200 iirc.

Edit: should mention that he has Aegis.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Someone should rename this topic "PLD/RDM: Why not?"

[CoronA1979]

Someone should rename this topic "PLD/RDM: Why not?"

I agree. The PLD on Cerberus Hosom was speaking of, was me. Also went at Khimaira /RDM yesterday and found it to be a joke.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Someone should rename this topic "PLD/RDM: Why not?"

I'd agree, if it weren't for the fact that the thread's actual premise has hardly been touched. With the exception of a few, "Its fun", to which I already knew and completely understood(trust me, I'm not calling that in invalid reason- this is a game, after all), most of these four pages have been covered in account upon account of "it works, and here's my proof". I did ask for a wide array of comments, but I also did make it perfectly clear that I was well aware that it was fully functional and, in most situations, an improvement in overall enmity gained.

My question initially was, and remains to be, why give up a massive amount of damage potential when there was really very little wrong with your enmity accumulation in the first place? Even if damage dealt isn't a priority of yours(which would leave me completely dumbfounded, to be honest), you're still taking a significantly larger hunk of damage in exchange for this boost in enmity.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm in no way trying to be confrontational and stomp around spouting, "rawr, do it my way or fail". I'm just genuinely surprised at what people find to be worth trading.

[Ferien]

I'd agree, if it weren't for the fact that the thread's actual premise has hardly been touched. With the exception of a few, "Its fun", to which I already knew and completely understood(trust me, I'm not calling that in invalid reason- this is a game, after all), most of these four pages have been covered in account upon account of "it works, and here's my proof". I did ask for a wide array of comments, but I also did make it perfectly clear that I was well aware that it was fully functional and, in most situations, an improvement in overall enmity gained.

My question initially was, and remains to be, why give up a massive amount of damage potential when there was really very little wrong with your enmity accumulation in the first place? Even if damage dealt isn't a priority of yours(which would leave me completely dumbfounded, to be honest), you're still taking a significantly larger hunk of damage in exchange for this boost in enmity.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm in no way trying to be confrontational and stomp around spouting, "rawr, do it my way or fail". I'm just genuinely surprised at what people find to be worth trading.

The answer is, basically, because we want to. Ignoring the situations where you can't do damage anyway, some of us just don't care. Go ahead and be dumbfounded, there are different ways to play the job, they all work just as well. Amazing.

[CoronA1979]

The reason I prefer /rdm over /nin on several things is the amount of hate I can maintain. An example would be Dark Ixion.

/NIN on Dark Ixion I spend so much fucking time casting Utsusemi (which btw often I still get my face punched in from time to time) and less and less time on doing things to the mob to generate substantial amounts of hate. With /RDM, I am constantly doing things to generate more hate on the mob allowing me to have/maintain better hate. I could be crazy but from the perspective of our fights with Ixion our DD are able to go more "balls to the wall" with it than when one is /NIN.

Oh yeah, it's fun also.

[Yarko]

I agree. The PLD on Cerberus Hosom was speaking of, was me. Also went at Khimaira /RDM yesterday and found it to be a joke.

What's the block rate like with Aegis on things like Khimaira/Cerberus/Ixion ?

[Ambir]

I'd agree, if it weren't for the fact that the thread's actual premise has hardly been touched. With the exception of a few, "Its fun", to which I already knew and completely understood(trust me, I'm not calling that in invalid reason- this is a game, after all), most of these four pages have been covered in account upon account of "it works, and here's my proof". I did ask for a wide array of comments, but I also did make it perfectly clear that I was well aware that it was fully functional and, in most situations, an improvement in overall enmity gained.

My question initially was, and remains to be, why give up a massive amount of damage potential when there was really very little wrong with your enmity accumulation in the first place? Even if damage dealt isn't a priority of yours(which would leave me completely dumbfounded, to be honest), you're still taking a significantly larger hunk of damage in exchange for this boost in enmity.

You've answered your own question though. Tanks do two things, they generate hate and they mitigate damage. Generating more hate over a long fight is significant. Even if hate generation was "OK" before, this still allows your DDs to deal more damage safely. In addition, /RDM can generate a lot more hate to a sleeping mob, and to a flying mob, which are both pretty useful.

It only works were hate is more important than mitigation, but in a lot of cases damage is already mitigated to managable levels.

[Berdysh]

I'd agree, if it weren't for the fact that the thread's actual premise has hardly been touched. With the exception of a few, "Its fun", to which I already knew and completely understood(trust me, I'm not calling that in invalid reason- this is a game, after all), most of these four pages have been covered in account upon account of "it works, and here's my proof". I did ask for a wide array of comments, but I also did make it perfectly clear that I was well aware that it was fully functional and, in most situations, an improvement in overall enmity gained.

My question initially was, and remains to be, why give up a massive amount of damage potential when there was really very little wrong with your enmity accumulation in the first place? Even if damage dealt isn't a priority of yours(which would leave me completely dumbfounded, to be honest), you're still taking a significantly larger hunk of damage in exchange for this boost in enmity.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I'm in no way trying to be confrontational and stomp around spouting, "rawr, do it my way or fail". I'm just genuinely surprised at what people find to be worth trading.

On one of the mobs cited, Cerberus, PLD/RDM is actually a lot more damage dished out than PLD/NIN. It's a lot easier to build TP through Shield Blocks than it is by swinging your sword on him, and most of a PLDs damage is going to be through Atonement spam. Not to mention, on a lot of mobs, Reprisal can actually hit pretty hard. Maybe this changes with Excalibur mixed in, I don't know, but I like go to /RDM with my Aegis whenever I can, as long as I feel /NIN mitigation wouldn't be a huge advantage. On stuff like Cerberus, it's really not; to a smart shield user, Cerb really doesn't push out a lot of damage. Ixion would be another example - /RDM can really smooth out that fight.

/NIN is still my fall-back subjob for most things, but /RDM can definitely be advantageous and isn't 'just for fun'.

[dejet]

i just saw a Aeg pld tank cerb two nights back as pld/rdm, he held hate fine and on shild blocks he took around 3-6% hp dmg, tho there was once when cerb did a attack that did 80% his hp. Guy did not die or anything and they had a tone of whms and 2 back up tanks. so i guess its "fun" and it can be good on some monsters but really its not worth doing unless you have a back up plan if you ask me.

i would not tell anyone to do this on cerb tho lol 90% the time you could see that all his linkshell whm's wished he would die to get the other pld/nin in lol.

godwolf was the pld fyi.

[Kurt Cobain]

I only use it on things I can't use Excalibur and Sushi on effectively, which, so far is only Ixion

[Grey Jorildyn]

I only use it on things I can't use Excalibur and Sushi on effectively, which, so far is only Ixion

Seems like just what I was thinking.

I'd love to try PLD/RDM on Cerberus, but I think with my Excal nearing, I shouldn't bother trying to try out this "fun". We've been using SCH a lot more in tank parties now too Maybe I'll give it a shot the next time we aren't in a holding situation for Cerberus, which I feel is where PLD/NIN kind of excels and it happens occasionally on Titan.

[dejet]

I am picking pld up soon myself(i no that im moving off topic a bit here but just asking).
Is there anytime that you would maybe use pld/rdm in exp? at like 60+? I mean some of the monsters you start to fight are only T's. i tanked them on sam and took 100 dmg a hit. Thinking that as a pld, rdm sub in exp might work well if the party is fighting weak monsters. no?

I'd love to try PLD/RDM on Cerberus, but I think with my Excal nearing, I shouldn't bother trying to try out this "fun". We've been using SCH a lot more in tank parties now too Maybe I'll give it a shot the next time we aren't in a holding situation for Cerberus, which I feel is where PLD/NIN kind of excels and it happens occasionally on Titan.

ya, i am no pld, however it does not seem to be a fitting sub job for a holding Party.

He did tank fine from what i saw tho.

[Kurt Cobain]

if you have the resources, /RDM's hate is far superior to /NIN, I'd rather our healers spend MP curing me rather than raising RNGs (at ixion)

[CoronA1979]

i just saw a Aeg pld tank cerb two nights back as pld/rdm, he held hate fine and on shild blocks he took around 3-6% hp dmg, tho there was once when cerb did a attack that did 80% his hp. Guy did not die or anything and they had a tone of whms and 2 back up tanks. so i guess its "fun" and it can be good on some monsters but really its not worth doing unless you have a back up plan if you ask me.

i would not tell anyone to do this on cerb tho lol 90% the time you could see that all his linkshell whm's wished he would die to get the other pld/nin in lol.

godwolf was the pld fyi.

I play Godwulf and, you're out of your mind lol... Only once did my HP ever get even considerably low. All his WHM's? There was one WHM there and his HP hovered around 800mp -.-

So, yeah ^^;;

[CoronA1979]

if you have the resources, /RDM's hate is far superior to /NIN, I'd rather our healers spend MP curing me rather than raising RNGs (at ixion)

^

This.

[Grey Jorildyn]

if you have the resources, /RDM's hate is far superior to /NIN, I'd rather our healers spend MP curing me rather than raising RNGs (at ixion)

As far as enmity/time goes, that's right. I feel pretty comfortable in my hate generation as PLD/NIN though and don't lose hate very often. Those first 3 minutes of the fight are generally key to this. The upkeep on /RDM also seems better for the same reasons. I guess I'm just having a hard time imagining how far down you're going to reduce damage with Aegis, SCH Phalanx, and the occasional Stoneskin. Shield can be kinda random at times, and I do have the shield set and macros and all for it. Maybe I just need more practice with it because I'm trying to compare the two pound-for-pound which isn't really the best way to approach it.

I'll probably end up sticking by /NIN for everything but am considering seriously making the switch to /RDM for Dark Ixion on a permanent basis. If I'm gonna be the only tank out there though, is that a good idea? That trample move zaps MP sometimes which really hurt me last time as PLD/RDM and since then I've not been happy with being anything but /NIN.

[Kurt Cobain]

I just opened the parses for our Ixions and found ones that took a comparable amount of time, as /NIN I took 18123 damage in 26 minutes, and as /RDM in a 23 minute fight I took 23015, just guessing on the math but I'd say roughly 12 cure4s? Average melee damage per hit as /RDM is 75, 147 as /NIN, average WS damage taken is 353.97 /NIN, 207.58 /RDM. Averages aren't super meaningful when you're taking more hits/blinking more. But it is what it is, KParser, if anyone wants any more info.

[Grey Jorildyn]

Interesting parse, and 25mins is a good amount of time to consider most fights, but not most parses. As for WS damage, are those Lava Spits, Sulfurous Breaths, Lightning Spears, etc.? There's a lot of variation. If we're talking only Ixion, then a parse could be inaccurate depending on how often you ran from Wrath of Zeus (mistakes happen), how often is randomly spun and used Archeron Kick, stuff like that. Hard to nail it down, but precisely, but yea, it is approximately 12 cure IVs, about 195 extra damage per minute. Over the course of an hour that's a significant amount more damage to take for having the ability to generate higher Enmity/sec (EPS?)

I guess it is indeed what it is.

[Kurt Cobain]

Oh, I dunno, I usually always get away from Zeus/Spear on Ixion as /NIN, I'd never use /RDM on anything I could Excal effectively, ie cerb/khim/tia. I have the data for melee hits/weapon skill damage by WS (Rampant Stance, Wrath of Zeus, Acheron Kick), if you want it.