Blue Mage Tanking

[Dimmauk]

This won't work since BLU does not have innate Staff skill, no physcal spells (I'm assuming since you mentioned TP) will land.

Vulcan staff + Axe Grip + Vertical Cleave would like to talk to you.

[AoshiZ]

Vulcan staff + Axe Grip + Vertical Cleave would like to talk to you.

Is there some secret to Vertical Cleave in which it never misses? or a 250+ Accuracy bonus?

[Karshe]

Vulcan staff + Axe Grip + Vertical Cleave would like to talk to you.

Maybe you're forgetting the fact that a BLU/SAM wouldn't have Sneak Attack, unless there's something I'm missing that would let you hit Tiamat with a staff (spell).

[Yvonne]

Vulcan staff + Axe Grip + Vertical Cleave would like to talk to you.

Yeah, kinda need SA for that.

[Dimmauk]

Yeah I thought he was just talking about not using a sword. I didnt know he was talking about /SAM.

[VZX]

I always tanked in 2 brd + rdm situations ballads 3 refresh 3 autofresh 1 relic body 1. 8 MP/tic and in ToAU areas 9 with sanction. conserve mp to save me a tad, magic fruit cheaper than cure IV, pretty cheap spells. I've managed and have time to cast nonesense spells in my set when I get bored. With 1 bard I'm sure it would be tough and I'd have to manage a bit better.

That's the cons of BLU tanking I'm talking about.
It demands more than 3MP/tic outside Refresh.

My MP running out more quickly than PLD's even though I have auto refresh, conserve MP trait and RDM refresh all the time.

[Ultimagi]

When does a Paladin not have both Refresh and Ballad? At least in my linkshell they always do.

[Marcicus]

I think he's getting at double ballad, not single. In my LS it's usually march+ballad.

[Nicholette]

That's the cons of BLU tanking I'm talking about.
It demands more than 3MP/tic outside Refresh.

My MP running out more quickly than PLD's even though I have auto refresh, conserve MP trait and RDM refresh all the time.

I run out of MP with my paladin alot, I do not have refresh body but have neck so generate the same amount of mp/tic. For my paladin to generate the same amount of hate as my blu it requires more MP spent/enmity gained, plain and simple. Paladin has JA's that help and Chivalry but cannot reach the level of enmity I can on blu. So I'm saying, if you and I receive = mp a tic and are tanking partners, you paladin using all you have, me blu using whatever I have, my mp pool will stay equal with yours but I will be ahead on hate. This is based on a mob that is not attacked and the paladin isnt insanely outgearing me. I think a paladins biggest advantage over a blu is actually shield/blocking.

[Suiram]

I agree with Nicholette's post. Another way to look at it is this, AB/Temp Shift/Jetta are only marginally less hate than Flash (260 VE), and average only slightly more MP. BLU cures are considerably more MP efficient. And you have conserve MP. So just on the face of it you should have a better hate:MP ratio than a PLD (ignoring Atonement, I guess, which is important to consider these days).

I think the main reason you run into MP issues on BLU is that there are so many tools at your disposal, it is easy to want to spam them without regard for MP, rather than to try to maintain a balance. If you are fighting something with Magical AoE WS for instance, you will be doing more curing, which means lower MP but also less of a need to spam your other spells. Another thing is Saline Coat, if you set it you have to be careful to see if it is really worth using in that particular situation. I'm not sure it's even worth using outside of B2 flares and Citadel Buster (or AV Manafont, I guess).

[Ultimagi]

I want to see if capped Magic Damage Taken -50% and Magic Defense Bonus +50, and stoneskin, and maybe a Light Carol and Phalanx II, will net a 0 damage Citadel Buster. The Red Mage in my linkshell got it down to less than 300 last Ultima, if I recall correctly.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Light Carol isn't going to help.

[Suiram]

That's something of a weird question. I mean, 50% damage taken and 60 MDB is 652 damage from citidel buster. While that's perfectly adequate damage to take in my opinion, there's no way to make that 0, even with stoneskin, unless you are hoping to get a resist. And if you allow random chance of resist, then any job with 50% damage taken gear and stoneskin will take 0 damage if you get a 1/4 or 1/8 resist (assuming no light-weather procs), not that that's going to happen often at all. So the question is kind of trivial.

Also, I think just asking about CB reinforces the prejudice that BLU tanking ability doesn't extend beyond "Ultima Backup Tank", which I would have hoped the discussion in this thread had dispelled to a certain extent.

[Nicholette]

I agree with Nicholette's post. Another way to look at it is this, AB/Temp Shift/Jetta are only marginally less hate than Flash (260 VE), and average only slightly more MP. BLU cures are considerably more MP efficient. And you have conserve MP. So just on the face of it you should have a better hate:MP ratio than a PLD (ignoring Atonement, I guess, which is important to consider these days).

I think the main reason you run into MP issues on BLU is that there are so many tools at your disposal, it is easy to want to spam them without regard for MP, rather than to try to maintain a balance. If you are fighting something with Magical AoE WS for instance, you will be doing more curing, which means lower MP but also less of a need to spam your other spells. Another thing is Saline Coat, if you set it you have to be careful to see if it is really worth using in that particular situation. I'm not sure it's even worth using outside of B2 flares and Citadel Buster (or AV Manafont, I guess).

Flash is 25MP
Actinic is 24MP
Cure IV is 88MP
Magic Fruit is 72MP (I cure much less on blu for hate because I can generate near the same enmity for jettatura, Temp shift, and Exhuviation MP costs)
These with conserve MP is where I make up ground MP wise to use
Diffusion + exuviation 40MP I can cast this with people in range and completely ignore another hate move for a while but I have to be prepared to not get the mob off me (usually I do this right when Tia is about to fly and the brd and whm are giving buffs up close, my hate will shed before it lands)
Jettatura 37MP
Temporal Shift 48MP
Blank Gaze 25MP

I totally agree that with Suiram that with more hate options on blu it gets easy to want to spam them and ignore MP but its just a matter of cutting back and keeping up with your cotank properly.

I admit Atonement is awesome additional hate tool now and mobs that are safe to attack and TP on I think give pld another advantage.

[Suiram]

Yeah, I specified the magical AoE part because I agree that unless you need to, using the other spells for hate seems superior to curing. Also, just comparing the MP costs of Fruit/Cure doesn't do the difference justice, due to the way the cures themselves are calculated. I have to run out the door now though or else I'd find the info.

Edit, also, I have found that diffusion isn't really needed to use for Exuviation. I just cast Exuv whenever timer is up, and I save Diffusion in case of emergency (I'm only 1/5 merit on it, though). I've still never tanked Tiamat on BLU, though, so maybe it is good to use in the situation you described.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Flash is 25MP
Actinic is 24MP
Cure IV is 88MP
Magic Fruit is 72MP (I cure much less on blu for hate because I can generate near the same enmity for jettatura, Temp shift, and Exhuviation MP costs)
These with conserve MP is where I make up ground MP wise to use
Diffusion + exuviation 40MP I can cast this with people in range and completely ignore another hate move for a while but I have to be prepared to not get the mob off me (usually I do this right when Tia is about to fly and the brd and whm are giving buffs up close, my hate will shed before it lands)
Jettatura 37MP
Temporal Shift 48MP
Blank Gaze 25MP

I totally agree that with Suiram that with more hate options on blu it gets easy to want to spam them and ignore MP but its just a matter of cutting back and keeping up with your cotank properly.

When you lay it all out like that, it just seems like a less MP efficient and self-sufficient version of RDM/NIN with slower Utsu-casting and a lackluster Stoneskin.

[Nicholette]

When you lay it all out like that, it just seems like a less MP efficient and self-sufficient version of RDM/NIN with slower Utsu-casting and a lackluster Stoneskin.

In some ways yes, but with different gear access, different stats/HP, passive traits that are different and adjustable, stun, flash, some unique spells unto itself and completely ignore stoneskin on blu since it's inefficient, I hope i differentiated the two.

I think rdm tanks are amazing, I'm just saying blu is different. It has some similarities to PLD some to RDM and some things that put it on its own.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not implying that BLU/NIN doesn't work.. Because as you and many others have shown, it works just fine. The predominant issue I find in getting people to let me tank more often than not is that they feel RDM/NIN lacks any trump card(to which I don't agree in the least, honestly.. I'd say its Atonement that makes PLD better than RDM/NIN, but that's another thing entirely ;p). Paladin has Sentinel and Invincible, which can in some cases mean the difference between them dropping when something goes wrong, or pulling through with a complete recovery. RDM has a ridiculous number of benefits to make up for this area of slight vulnerability, where as BLU has significantly fewer, and no such backup plan, as it were.

[AoshiZ]

Don't get me wrong, I'm certainly not implying that BLU/NIN doesn't work.. Because as you and many others have shown, it works just fine. The predominant issue I find in getting people to let me tank more often than not is that they feel RDM/NIN lacks any trump card(to which I don't agree in the least, honestly.. I'd say its Atonement that makes PLD better than RDM/NIN, but that's another thing entirely ;p). Paladin has Sentinel and Invincible, which can in some cases mean the difference between them dropping when something goes wrong, or pulling through with a complete recovery. RDM has a ridiculous number of benefits to make up for this area of slight vulnerability, where as BLU has significantly fewer, and no such backup plan, as it were.

When did this become a comparison topic?

You're looking at blu as if it is similar to Rdm/Nin which its not and far from it.

Blu spells are nothing like those of Rdm spells. Many of them cast in less than a second. The time efficiency in spellcasting is completely different and more similar to Pld. Allowing for timing in damage mitigation with utsu or other spells and abilities that need quick reaction.

Various Blu spells offer large VE and others offer hefty CE. Rdm spells are generally low on VE and excel at generating CE(specifically i think Rdm's fastcast MP pool are the prime factors in generating CE since the CE values themselves aren't very high). Pld spells and abilities generally suck at CE and are massive on VE. Of course various subs can be the link for rdm to gain VE and pld to gain CE abilities... but comparing to say one is better is a controversial never ending discussion at best.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I'm not comparing, I'm looking for someone to make me see what BLU/NIN has to offer that other tanks can't already do better.

Being a thread that encompasses all avenues of said class in said role, I think its a fair thing to discuss.

And for the record, I'm mainly scrutinizing for the sake of deciding whether it would be worth giving a try. Hell, as soon as a Yagrush is created and someone confirms that there isn't some hidden enmity reduction involved, I'll be upgrading >_>;

I want to have the best tanking class available for any and all situations ;D