Blue Mage Tanking

[AoshiZ]

I'm not comparing, I'm looking for someone to make me see what BLU/NIN has to offer that other tanks can't already do better.

Being a thread that encompasses all avenues of said class in said role, I think its a fair thing to discuss.

And for the record, I'm mainly scrutinizing for the sake of deciding whether it would be worth giving a try. Hell, as soon as a Yagrush is created and someone confirms that there isn't some hidden enmity reduction involved, I'll be upgrading >_>;

I want to have the best tanking class available for any and all situations ;D

Like previously stated earlier in this thread. The situation where Blu mage dominates is in "SuperTanking". Although there are few events that need this as of now, I'd assume there will be more instanced encounters in the future that may arise for this role?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Actually, I'm pretty sure the only time actual 'supertanking' was mentioned is in regard to wanting the thread title changed because that's not what the thread was actually talking about.

And dominate is a strong word. I'll take a 30 DMG Phalanx and 410 Stoneskin over 200 defense that diminished 200 defense ago.

[AoshiZ]

How would you grab 4 Mobs at the same time and manage them while support Crowd control takes over?

Phalanx can be given with Phalanx2 and sentinel can be subbed.

Would you sub something with an AE spell with a slow casting time just to try and gain that benefit?

[Tsuko_Asura]

You seem to be confused. Supertanking is 'aggroing' multiple things at once so that you can be cure-bombed without negative repercussions. No AoE enmity-accumulators are necessary in this case.

If you're referring to the type of thing that goes on in say.. Einherjar, you could just as easily sub BLM. Stonega or Sleepga would take care of tagging, and barspells would be plenty to keep things sufficiently locked on you.

Just as well, I said 30 DMG Phalanx for a reason, and Sentinel lasts 30 seconds, and would be completely moot if you're not trying to sleep whatever you're holding, because you could simply sub Paladin and use Diaga for tagging.

[Yugl]

Or you could get a RDM to Phalanx II you AND get that extra DEF. Save the AoE spells for mitigating DMG.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Or you could get a RDM to Phalanx II you AND get that extra DEF. Save the AoE spells for mitigating DMG.

You lost me completely.

[AoshiZ]

You seem to be confused. Supertanking is 'aggroing' multiple things at once so that you can be cure-bombed without negative repercussions. No AoE enmity-accumulators are necessary in this case.

If you're referring to the type of thing that goes on in say.. Einherjar, you could just as easily sub BLM. Stonega or Sleepga would take care of tagging, and barspells would be plenty to keep things sufficiently locked on you.

Just as well, I said 30 DMG Phalanx for a reason, and Sentinel lasts 30 seconds, and would be completely moot if you're not trying to sleep whatever you're holding, because you could simply sub Paladin and use Diaga for tagging.

Actually its far from what you're saying. 'aggroing' multiple things at once... This sounds like you're also doing the pulling?

Generally thieves or some other fast movement class will pull. Diaga is the worst spell for tagging things if you want them to be eventually slept. In situations where the mob has any level of resistance with poor AE hate the mob will go after the sleeper upon resisted sleep. The AE stuns and AE flashes help to keep the blu alive and the mobs focused on the blu while others attempt to crowd control.

in response to "Stonega or Sleepga would take care of tagging" these are slow spells, have limited hate, and not really something i would consider top class ... and are you trying to promote pld/blm?

in response to "barspells would be plenty to keep things sufficiently locked on you" now the sub is pld/whm? and while you're maintaining hate with the barspells what are you doing to stay alive? If you're thinking sentinel thats a pretty long cooldown for your usefulness. Not to mention barspells rely on others being around you in your party to be fast hate. which by the way isn't much hate at all 80 VE times 6 people is only 480 VE in the best case scenario.

Seriously though, now it just sounds like you're throwing poor solutions in lieu to justify pld being in a situation its clearly not created for.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Now you're just being silly. The term "supertanking" was created long before things like Einherjar, where a tank would simply run in, aggro everything, and people would pull things off one by one. The tank wouldn't have initiated any enmity on any of the targets, and could subsequently be cure-bombed without anything give a healer a second glance. If that's not what you're referring to, fine, but that's what "supertanking" is.

I already addressed Diaga's limited usefulness, it wasn't to be taken as an overall means to getting jobs like that done. Furthermore, Flash shouldn't be considered a survival tool against anything significant.

And while I'm not actually referring to Paladin, yes, PLD/BLM is a perfectly acceptable job combination for the type of things you're talking about. Though, based on the first comment in your second paragraph, I'm sorely tempted to assume you're talking about Dynamis at this point.

[AoshiZ]

You lost me completely.

Oh i misunderstood you're talking about Rdm/pld or rdm/blm or rdm/whm. Sure Rdm can supertank. But the spells to tag are slow and aside from phalanx they have nothing unique to last any longer. And if the rdm is there doing the super tanking who's going to be helping to sleep the mobs that are being super tanked? The rdm in question will obviously be interrupted. And what about mobs that can't be slept? Rdm cannot and will not maintain hate with bar (single target 300 VE) spells over a cure bombing i'm sorry.

[AoshiZ]

Now you're just being silly. The term "supertanking" was created long before things like Einherjar, where a tank would simply run in, aggro everything, and people would pull things off one by one. The tank wouldn't have initiated any enmity on any of the targets, and could subsequently be cure-bombed without anything give a healer a second glance. If that's not what you're referring to, fine, but that's what "supertanking" is.

I already addressed Diaga's limited usefulness, it wasn't to be taken as an overall means to getting jobs like that done. Furthermore, Flash shouldn't be considered a survival tool against anything significant.

And while I'm not actually referring to Paladin, yes, PLD/BLM is a perfectly acceptable job combination for the type of things you're talking about. Though, based on the first comment in your second paragraph, I'm sorely tempted to assume you're talking about Dynamis at this point.

I was referring to Dynamis and Einherjar. Fortunately for everyone, Einherjar is no longer link all at the beginning. But it still has its usefulness on large links.

Edit Addition: Pld/Blm will not outperform a Blu in this instance i'm sorry if you feel that way and maybe our opinions differ. But i'm sure everyone else in this thread will attest to that. Furthermore, I don't think i've been in an event where we've had the tank run in to pull a lot of mobs while he tanks it in over 4 years. Are you talking about the Invincible Pld sac pulls?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Oh i misunderstood you're talking about Rdm/pld or rdm/blm or rdm/whm. Sure Rdm can supertank. But the spells to tag are slow and aside from phalanx they have nothing unique to last any longer. And if the rdm is there doing the super tanking who's going to be helping to sleep the mobs that are being super tanked? The rdm in question will obviously be interrupted. And what about mobs that can't be slept? Rdm cannot and will not maintain hate with bar (single target 300 VE) spells over a cure bombing i'm sorry.

RDM/PLD if you don't need things slept, RDM/BLM if you do. Although, RDM/BLU would probably work moderately better, as there are a million and one ways to tag a crowd with blue magic available before level 38. Regardless, Stonega is an extremely fast spell on RDM.
Also, don't discount a powerful Stoneskin for initial tagging. You can make 410 HP last for quite some time.

Barspells can be spammed non-stop, so while its not something I'd rely on in general to keep hate, its perfectly sufficient when you're just holding hate against a few Sleepga. And you shouldn't be getting cure-bombed if things are being slept, so that's rather moot.

EDIT: No, not sac'ing. Any job can sac. I'm talking about holding. The most common instance of this would probably be Divine Might.

[AoshiZ]

The term "supertanking" was created long before things like Einherjar, where a tank would simply run in, aggro everything, and people would pull things off one by one. The tank wouldn't have initiated any enmity on any of the targets, and could subsequently be cure-bombed without anything give a healer a second glance. If that's not what you're referring to, fine, but that's what "supertanking" is.

I'm aware of the mechanics of the old school run in range aggro so that the emnity implications do not exist so you can have limitless cure bombing. However the supertanking term has evolved since then. Also it is important to note how this specific role in how you describe it isn't really useful anywhere in the game currently. There are various new strats that supercede this old strat in much better ways. The MP lost in this act is massive and the days in which this strat was used and the time you refer to did not have the sentinel damage reduction which it has now.

[Nadie]

RDM may have faster utsusemi casting, but BLU has faster hate spells, and doesn't need to spam them at the rate RDM does. BLU also has stun and flash (technically terror as well, but the land rate on that is bad enough not to be worth a mention), which if used more defensively rather than just casting as soon when they're up, can be a great help. It gets you a bit less hate over time, but in my personal experience, that hasn't really been an issue.

Also cocoon, loldefense and all that, but I find there's a noticable difference between keeping it up and not, and if you think defense would really cap at ~450 on anything noteworthy, you're wrong. Phalanx is practically a non-issue with Phalanx II and SCH available.

BLU also gets healing breeze, which works well for mobs with AoE attacks, KS99 wyrm comes to mind as an example. It helps reduce some of the healer's burden as well as enmity, while increasing your own. Same thing with exuviation's erase.

There's a few more things that could be mentioned, but I think the above are the more interesting points as compared to RDM.

Lastly, a note on MP efficiency, since it was brought up - I have no trouble usually with 7 MP tick (auto refresh, relic body, RDM + ballad II), and I don't really feel the need to have another bard.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I'm aware of the mechanics of the old school run in range aggro so that the emnity implications do not exist so you can have limitless cure bombing. However the supertanking term has evolved since then. Also it is important to note how this specific role in how you describe it isn't really useful anywhere in the game currently. There are various new strats that supercede this old strat in much better ways. The MP lost in this act is massive and the days in which this strat was used and the time you refer to did not have the sentinel damage reduction which it has now.

I'm not advocating its use, I'm simply explaining what most people know the term to mean.

[AoshiZ]

RDM/PLD if you don't need things slept, RDM/BLM if you do. Although, RDM/BLU would probably work moderately better, as there are a million and one ways to tag a crowd with blue magic available before level 38. Regardless, Stonega is an extremely fast spell on RDM.
Also, don't discount a powerful Stoneskin for initial tagging. You can make 410 HP last for quite some time.

Barspells can be spammed non-stop, so while its not something I'd rely on in general to keep hate, its perfectly sufficient when you're just holding hate against a few Sleepga. And you shouldn't be getting cure-bombed if things are being slept, so that's rather moot.

EDIT: No, not sac'ing. Any job can sac. I'm talking about holding. The most common instance of this would probably be Divine Might.

Its become obvious that you most likely do not have a blu mage that you have experienced this role. To compare a rdm fastcasted stonega versus a 0.5 second speed spell is like comparing stone spell cast versus flash. The speed difference is mandatory while things are hitting you so that you can still get the spells out. Yes you can catch the mobs in the distance but how are you going to keep them on you? How will you mitigate damage aside from the initial stoneskin? sentinel's recast is too long for repeated usability. How about tanking a horde of skeletons in Ein? Lullaby doesn't last long and there aren't alot of AE white magic based sleeps except for the ones BLU may have.

I think you should at least give it a try first because the things that you are comparing with just don't really work as well. I have both rdm and blu and i personally feel that in situations with many high level mobs, blu is the clear winner. Edit: Clear winner for Super Tanking. not for Crowd Control.

[Tsuko_Asura]

RDM may have faster utsusemi casting, but BLU has faster hate spells, and doesn't need to spam them at the rate RDM does. BLU also has stun and flash (technically terror as well, but the land rate on that is bad enough not to be worth a mention), which if used more defensively rather than just casting as soon when they're up, can be a great help. It gets you a bit less hate over time, but in my personal experience, that hasn't really been an issue.

Also cocoon, loldefense and all that, but I find there's a noticable difference between keeping it up and not, and if you think defense would really cap at ~450 on anything noteworthy, you're wrong. Phalanx is practically a non-issue with Phalanx II and SCH available.

BLU also gets healing breeze, which works well for mobs with AoE attacks, KS99 wyrm comes to mind as an example. It helps reduce some of the healer's burden as well as enmity, while increasing your own. Same thing with exuviation's erase.

There's a few more things that could be mentioned, but I think the above are the more interesting points as compared to RDM.

Lastly, a note on MP efficiency, since it was brought up - I have no trouble usually with 7 MP tick (auto refresh, relic body, RDM + ballad II), and I don't really feel the need to have another bard.

Its a bit fallacious to say spam as if there was something wrong with it. I can easily go in a Sleep2/Sleep/Dispel rotation without missing a beat, or using up a significant amount of MP.

The fact that you can use Stun defensively is a bit moot when I can get Ichi up between the swing of nearly anything, Elegy or not.

The defense bit is just from my personal experience. I've had Minne stacked on me and noticed no increased damage mitigation.

Curaga is nifty, no doubt, but isn't something that should be used unless necessary.

Lastly, while its nothing I prefer, I'm perfectly capable of tanking without any support at all. Even though it does progressively drain me, making my MP-pool last eight minutes is extremely easy.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Its become obvious that you most likely do not have a blu mage that you have experienced this role. To compare a rdm fastcasted stonega versus a 0.5 second speed spell is like comparing stone spell cast versus flash. The speed difference is mandatory while things are hitting you so that you can still get the spells out. Yes you can catch the mobs in the distance but how are you going to keep them on you? How will you mitigate damage aside from the initial stoneskin? sentinel's recast is too long for repeated usability. How about tanking a horde of skeletons in Ein? Lullaby doesn't last long and there aren't alot of AE white magic based sleeps except for the ones BLU may have.

I think you should at least give it a try first because the things that you are comparing with just don't really work as well. I have both rdm and blu and i personally feel that in situations with many high level mobs, blu is the clear winner. Edit: Clear winner for Super Tanking. not for Crowd Control.

You're not listening to me.

The easiest example would be the Einherjar of old, or any large link of sleepable targets:

-Stonega to tag everything

-Everything gets slept

-Spam barspells to build a significant amount of VE


Not only are things going to be on you when they wake up, but they won't even have broken Stoneskin before your crowd control buddies handle the second round of sleepga, which is when you repeat the cycle.

And I'm not arguing that RDM or any other job could get off spells AoE spells faster than BLU, I'm simply saying that its an irrelevant advantage.

[AoshiZ]

Its a bit fallacious to say spam as if there was something wrong with it. I can easily go in a Sleep2/Sleep/Dispel rotation without missing a beat, or using up a significant amount of MP.

The fact that you can use Stun defensively is a bit moot when I can get Ichi up between the swing of nearly anything, Elegy or not.

The defense bit is just from my personal experience. I've had Minne stacked on me and noticed no increased damage mitigation.

Curaga is nifty, no doubt, but isn't something that should be used unless necessary.

Lastly, while its nothing I prefer, I'm perfectly capable of tanking without any support at all. Even though it does progressively drain me, making my MP-pool last eight minutes is extremely easy.

If you're talking about sleeping the mobs to control them then you've lost the point of this discussion.

The role in which I'm describing helps to manage many mobs for the Rdm/Blm's to sleep or the Brds to lullaby or the Whm's to land Repose. It more efficiently fills the gap than having 1 on 1 or 1 on 2 scenarios with a Pld trying to grab multiple mobs and hold them on himself.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I'm talking about 1 on 1 ventures in that post, not crowd control.

[AoshiZ]

You're not listening to me.

The easiest example would be the Einherjar of old, or any large link of sleepable targets:

-Stonega to tag everything

-Everything gets slept

-Spam barspells to build a significant amount of VE


Not only are things going to be on you when they wake up, but they won't even have broken Stoneskin before your crowd control buddies handle the second round of sleepga, which is when you repeat the cycle.

And I'm not arguing that RDM or any other job could get off spells AoE spells faster than BLU, I'm simply saying that its an irrelevant advantage.

So you're saying that in the event that there are alot of mobs incoming I would rather have 2 red mages. One doing the job you're suggesting of stonega and doing bar spells to to maintain hate while the other sleeps the mobs.

Versus having 1 Blu mage which can AE stun AE flash for instant massive hate and damage mitigation by stunning them periodically while the other rdm sleeps the mobs.