Blue Mage Tanking

[Tsuko_Asura]

Why would you have anything other than a Bard or Black Mage handling crowd control?

You keep listing completely irrelevant advantages. Who gives a damn if things are drastically blinded or stunned when they're asleep? And why do you need 'massive hate' when very little is necessary to keep the crowd interested in you?

For reference, Horde Lullaby is 240 CE, Sleepga II is 180 CE, and any single-target bar-element is 300 VE. You could easily keep yourself ahead of every Black Mage and Bard by casting one barspell for every round of sleepga. Hell, even if you wanted to be a perfectionist and get some CE going so that you wouldn't have to be constantly reapplying VE, it would take all of 20 seconds to get 300+ CE on ten or more targets.

[AoshiZ]

Why would you have anything other than a Bard or Black Mage handling crowd control?

You keep listing completely irrelevant advantages. Who gives a damn if things are drastically blinded or stunned when they're asleep? And why do you need 'massive hate' when very little is necessary to keep the crowd interested in you?

For reference, Horde Lullaby is 240 CE, Sleepga II is 180 CE, and any single-target bar-element is 300 VE. You could easily keep yourself ahead of every Black Mage and Bard by casting one barspell for every round of sleepga. Hell, even if you wanted to be a perfectionist and get some CE going so that you wouldn't have to be constantly reapplying VE, it would take all of 20 seconds to get 300+ CE on ten or more targets.

But they're not asleep until they're put to sleep. Your arguments are for adding more crowd control and removing intermediate tanks then which is a completely different argument.

I'm sorry but you clearly have never played this role and you clearly have no experience playing blu mage in the role that i'm trying to describe. The blu mages role in this instance is substituted for the pld not for a rdm that is on sleep duty. Your examples of Rdm tanking would mean the rdm replace a pld as well not another rdm on sleep duty. Because you cannot relate to the perspective involving Blu's to tank multiple enemies during the intermediate stage before sleep, this argument will never end. I will leave it to maybe some other individuals to explain their perspective because you clearly cannot see mine.

Edit Addition: I also suggest you stop posting about why blu mages can't do things if you haven't played the roles in question.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Why do you keep trying to relate my position with someone who's playing support/crowd control on the side? You're either there to tank or you're not, there's no opportunity for being multifaceted.

And stop trying to complicate what you're saying. All it does it make it extremely annoying to decipher and refute, it doesn't create a more meaningful debate.

Allow me to break my position down into its most simplistic form:

Both Red Mage and Blue Mage are perfectly capable of tagging multiple targets

Both Red Mage and Blue Mage are perfectly capable of maintaining a sufficient amount of enmity on said targets

Both Red Mage and Blue mage are capable of mitigating a sufficient amount of damage during waking periods


The comparison comes down to a slightly better Phalanx and a significantly better Stoneskin versus significantly higher defense that is arguably far beyond the point of having diminished.

I should also ask you to point out where I've claimed Blue Mage can't fill this or any of the above roles.

[AoshiZ]

Both Red Mage and Blue Mage are perfectly capable of tagging multiple targets

Sure no argument

Both Red Mage and Blue mage are capable of mitigating a sufficient amount of damage during waking periods

Your damage mitigation involes a one time Stoneskin which is minimal and phalanx. Blu mage can continuously cycle various damage mitigation AE's such as stuns and flash.

Both Red Mage and Blue Mage are perfectly capable of maintaining a sufficient amount of enmity on said targets

Uh... no. Red Mage can't cast well while 4 mobs are hitting it. Your entire premise is based on the fact that the rdm generates this enmity while they are sleeping. Great to know that mobs come into the event slept for you to gain enmity on. Rdm burst enmity is a joke. And you said that your stoneskin wouldn't even be down after the mobs are slept which means you took less than 400 damage from multiple mobs pownding on you.
Seriously, its not realistic nor do your arguments show why the rdm would be able to maintain hate while taking damage from many mobs and be able to survive.

[Tsuko_Asura]

If you think a 410 wall of HP is insignificant, you're taking far too much damage. And what are you talking about with comments like 'continuously cycling'? These things are awake for a matter of seconds.

This is the last time I'm breaking this down for you. I demand a very minimal level of literacy to continue a debate with me, and quite frankly, you're just not meeting my standard.

For simplicity's sake, we'll talk about pre-patch Einherjar, where everything linked on a single pull:

-Someone pulls, doesn't really matter who

-Red Mage casts Stonega, Sheepsong, Soporific, Battledance, Sandspin, Sound Blast; What have you

-Black Mages or Bards Sleepga or Lullaby respectively

-Red Mage reapplies Stoneskin, and then proceeds to spam Barstone(alternatively, one could just as easily toss a Dispel on every target, which would take all of 20 seconds)

-Everything wakes up, and begins smacking the Red Mage in question around, until four seconds later, when everything gets slept again

-Rinse, lather, repeat


This is not a difficult concept.

[Nadie]

Its a bit fallacious to say spam as if there was something wrong with it. I can easily go in a Sleep2/Sleep/Dispel rotation without missing a beat, or using up a significant amount of MP.

The fact that you can use Stun defensively is a bit moot when I can get Ichi up between the swing of nearly anything, Elegy or not.

The defense bit is just from my personal experience. I've had Minne stacked on me and noticed no increased damage mitigation.

Curaga is nifty, no doubt, but isn't something that should be used unless necessary.

Lastly, while its nothing I prefer, I'm perfectly capable of tanking without any support at all. Even though it does progressively drain me, making my MP-pool last eight minutes is extremely easy.

I'm not saying spamming hate spells is a bad thing in itself, but whatever time you save casting utsusemi with fast cast is made up for by having less and faster spells to cast, and I find that I have much more 'free' time to react to what's going on on BLU, compared to RDM.

Using stun defensively also means you can stun TP moves - chances to do this are admittedly slightly limited, considering the role you're taking on, but even then I've found it to be useful on plenty of occasions.

Minne is a small boost compared to cocoon, there is a very noticable difference going from ~450 to just under 700 defense, compared to the ~60 or so you gain from the song.

I also disagree with not using healing breeze; I use it as often as I have a good opportunity, it's good hate and healing is a good thing. Normal cures are quite inefficient, hate-wise, but the AoE versions are much less so.

Can't argue with RDM being better at tanking with support, but I can't remember ever being in such a situation, and I'd imagine it's not a very common situation for anybody to be in, it's practically a non-issue for me either way. Also, maybe I didn't make it clear enough, but the part about MP efficiency was in response to the posts about needing two bards, and wasn't meant as a comparison to RDM.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I wasn't really using casting time as a means to say that we have more free time than you. I generally point that out as a means to put Red Mage Ichi ahead the class, as it generally doesn't require that you already had a buffer shadow up to avoid being interrupted, as with most classes.

Fair enough.

Stacking Minne is a bit more than 60 defense >_>

I suppose, but that's in comparison to your other spells. A more appropriate comparison would be to the MP-efficiency of other jobs' enmity arsenals.

And sorry, I could see how that comment could be easily misinterpreted. I was using it as a means to describe MP-efficiency, not necessarily self-sufficiency.

[Cream Soda]

If you think a 410 wall of HP is insignificant, you're taking far too much damage. And what are you talking about with comments like 'continuously cycling'? These things are awake for a matter of seconds.

This is the last time I'm breaking this down for you. I demand a very minimal level of literacy to continue a debate with me, and quite frankly, you're just not meeting my standard.

For simplicity's sake, we'll talk about pre-patch Einherjar, where everything linked on a single pull:

-Someone pulls, doesn't really matter who

-Red Mage casts Stonega, Sheepsong, Soporific, Battledance, Sandspin, Sound Blast; What have you

-Black Mages or Bards Sleepga or Lullaby respectively

-Red Mage reapplies Stoneskin, and then proceeds to spam Barstone(alternatively, one could just as easily toss a Dispel on every target, which would take all of 20 seconds)

-Everything wakes up, and begins smacking the Red Mage in question around, until four seconds later, when everything gets slept again

-Rinse, lather, repeat


This is not a difficult concept.

makes sense

[Nadie]

I wasn't really using casting time as a means to say that we have more free time than you. I generally point that out as a means to put Red Mage Ichi ahead the class, as it generally doesn't require that you already had a buffer shadow up to avoid being interrupted, as with most classes.

Fair enough.

Stacking Minne is a bit more than 60 defense >_>

I suppose, but that's in comparison to your other spells. A more appropriate comparison would be to the MP-efficiency of other jobs' enmity arsenals.

And sorry, I could see how that comment could be easily misinterpreted. I was using it as a means to describe MP-efficiency, not necessarily self-sufficiency.

Fast ichi is nice and all, but it's not as large an advantage as you'd think. For those rare times where I can't get ichi up in time, I actually use a spell interruption down set - it's a little known fact that it doesn't seem to have any cap beyond the obvious 100%, and it allows you to cast even subjob spells interrupted.

My bad about the minne, I got the impression you had used one minne only. There's not much I can say though, other than that damage taken per hit is noticably lower than other tanks, based on parses. This is with comparable amounts of damage reduction gear.

Healing Breeze is actually very MP efficient - assuming 120 HP cured for 6 people, you're looking at 57 VE/MP. Flash, as a comparison, is 51 VE/MP. This is obviously before any enmity. That it restores HP just makes it even better.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Point taken regarding Healing Breeze, probably should have looked it up before making that call.

[[Cookies]]

Guess what guys!? Any job can tank in Einherjar!

SAM/BLM, DRK/RDM, SCH/NIN etc. Nobody cares about which is 'better', it isn't hard at all to accumulate hate, it's which requires the least amount of support.

BLU will require more support than a RDM. With -50% damage, stoneskin, cocoon, etc. a RDM can take a lot less damage than BLU.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Guess what guys!? Any job can tank in Einherjar!

SAM/BLM, DRK/RDM, SCH/NIN etc. Nobody cares about which is 'better', it isn't hard at all to accumulate hate, it's which requires the least amount of support.

BLU will require more support than a RDM. With -50% damage, stoneskin, cocoon, etc. a RDM can take a lot less damage than BLU.

No argument, for the most part. For the purpose of trying to decipher any potential reason for me to level BLU/NIN to be a more versatile tank, though, being 'better' is of significance.

[AoshiZ]

This is the last time I'm breaking this down for you. I demand a very minimal level of literacy to continue a debate with me, and quite frankly, you're just not meeting my standard.

Great way to build yourself up to knock down my strawman.

If you think a 410 wall of HP is insignificant, you're taking far too much damage. And what are you talking about with comments like 'continuously cycling'? These things are awake for a matter of seconds.

For simplicity's sake, we'll talk about pre-patch Einherjar, where everything linked on a single pull:

-Someone pulls, doesn't really matter who

-Red Mage casts Stonega, Sheepsong, Soporific, Battledance, Sandspin, Sound Blast; What have you

-Black Mages or Bards Sleepga or Lullaby respectively

-Red Mage reapplies Stoneskin, and then proceeds to spam Barstone(alternatively, one could just as easily toss a Dispel on every target, which would take all of 20 seconds)

-Everything wakes up, and begins smacking the Red Mage in question around, until four seconds later, when everything gets slept again

-Rinse, lather, repeat

I took out your unproductive comments so i can focus on the point at hand.

Your assumption that mobs are awake for only a few seconds is a poor premise. If it were perfect like that then there would be no need for tanks. Reality is that, some mobs will be missed by the AE, others will come much later, and some mobs will resist.

So 10 mobs hit you at once but the 410 damage is sufficient? lets pretend it was just 5 mobs, you're saying each mob only hit you for 80 damage or less? I don't think dynamis mobs or ein mobs hit that weak regardless of whether you had a 30 damage static reduction from phalanx. Lets not talk about gear since rdm -%damage reduction is similar to blu mages options.

1 dispel is hardly any hate to keep the mob on you once it wakes up and hits you it will leave you. barstone how many times?

You continually compare two sides yet you don't even know one of the sides. You've never played Blu as a support tank so you continually make these examples in which you cannot feel or see the benefit no matter how much i explain it to you.
__________________________________________________ _______________________
Why would you compare things that you have no first hand experience? Why would you so religiously follow one path and forsake one that you don't know?
__________________________________________________ _______________________

BLU mage excels with locking multiple mobs and maintaining hate on them while preventing damage to itself. That is the exact effect of what AE stun does . Because blu has several methods of stun its possible to cycle in strategic orders to mitigate the damage.

I've analyzed your argument closely and your main premise is but one. The time elapse between when the mob is awake and when the mob is asleep is so small that 410 damage is plenty to tank a hoard of enemies. If that were the case then ANY JOB could do it with a AE tagging sub and some kind of spell they can cycle through to build enmity while the mob is asleep. And therefore with your premise, the position in itself that i argue i completely obselete.

[AoshiZ]

Guess what guys!? Any job can tank in Einherjar!

SAM/BLM, DRK/RDM, SCH/NIN etc. Nobody cares about which is 'better', it isn't hard at all to accumulate hate, it's which requires the least amount of support.

BLU will require more support than a RDM. With -50% damage, stoneskin, cocoon, etc. a RDM can take a lot less damage than BLU.

-50% is Terra Staff, Umbral Cape (at night), Jelly ring, and Defending ring? Crazy setup but BLU can wear these (if not defending you could have darksteel gear but i don't think it was -50%). Stoneskin? Blu has that(not as good). So how exactly does Rdm take alot less damage? you mean the difference between blu stoneskin(diamondhide) and Rdm? or the Phalanx? Phalanx is good I'll admit in some instances but not against heavy hitters. Not to mention cacoon is a main job ablity of blu so you're saying that the rdm needs to sub blu to take advantage. In which case the argument can be made that blu can sub pld for sentinel.

[Tsuko_Asura]

That was hardly an attempt to build myself up. That was me genuinely becoming frustrated with your apparent inability to grasp my very, very simplistic position.

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I have, and will continue to get things to hit me for very little damage. But you seem to be confusing '410 SS is sufficient' with 'SS will allow me to mitigate all damage'. I'm not concerned with taking absolutely no damage, I'm simply using it as a means to comparing mitigation ability. It is an irrefutable edge.

The 300 VE Barstone(which is more along the lines of ~420 with my enmity) can be ~20 times in the time it would take for even Lullaby to wear off. That's nearly capped VE.

And if your only means to refuting me at this point is, "ur not a blu lol", I'm done arguing with you. You've never needed to have a job leveled to understand its most rudimentary mechanics, and this is no different.

[Tsuko_Asura]

-50% is Terra Staff, Umbral Cape (at night), Jelly ring, and Defending ring? Crazy setup but BLU can wear these (if not defending you could have darksteel gear but i don't think it was -50%). Stoneskin? Blu has that(not as good). So how exactly does Rdm take alot less damage? you mean the difference between blu stoneskin(diamondhide) and Rdm? or the Phalanx? Phalanx is good I'll admit in some instances but not against heavy hitters. Not to mention cacoon is a main job ablity of blu so you're saying that the rdm needs to sub blu to take advantage. In which case the argument can be made that blu can sub pld for sentinel.

-You can hit -50% physical damage taken at night for ~3M.

-Blue Mage's Stoneskin is a joke compared to Red Mage's

-Phalanx is made situations in which you're taking damage in rapid succession, which includes crowd control

-Again, Sentinel lasts 30 seconds

[AoshiZ]

That was hardly an attempt to build myself up. That was me genuinely becoming frustrated with your apparent inability to grasp my very, very simplistic position.

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying. I have, and will continue to get things to hit me for very little damage. But you seem to be confusing '410 SS is sufficient' with 'SS will allow me to mitigate all damage'. I'm not concerned with taking absolutely no damage, I'm simply using it as a means to comparing mitigation ability. It is an irrefutable edge.

The 300 VE Barstone(which is more along the lines of ~420 with my enmity) can be ~20 times in the time it would take for even Lullaby to wear off. That's nearly capped VE.

And if your only means to refuting me at this point is, "ur not a blu lol", I'm done arguing with you. You've never needed to have a job leveled to understand its most rudimentary mechanics, and this is no different.

20 times huh~ obviously you didn't realize that theres a casting delay and a recast? you mean cycle throw the various bar spells? I'm not to impressed with having a Player in a tank role spamming bars in a rainbow while things are happening. If you call this efficient I'm going to have to avoid your strategies in the future on large scale encounters.

"Hey guys, Tsuko just stonega'd the mobs and is now cycling through bar spells while he's getting beat down" is how i picture this scenario.

Now Blu could have stunned them avoided hate, flashed and generated the same emnity with probably about 3 .5 second spells right at the beginning and be doing something productive like magic fruiting allies or some other DD roles.

I'm glad you feel that the jobs are so simplistic and rudimentary that you need no first hand experience to make solid judgements. Why do you play this game if you already know the outcome and the potential combinations of various roles and what they would be like?

And why do you need so much feedback on a similar concept as Pld/Rdm if its so easy for you to foresee?

[Tsuko_Asura]

And obviously YOU didn't realize that Lullaby lasts over 30 seconds, and that there is more than one bar-element spell? I had already considered and applied the casting delay when I gave that figure.

You basically just told me that my concept doesn't 'seem' very gallant and tank-like, therefor it doesn't work. That's my cue to leave you to float around in your bottomless pool of ignorance.

[Yugl]

You lost me completely.

Earlier it looked like you two were comparing RDM v BLU tanking in Einherjar where the tank gets hate on multiple mobs (Not just aggroing them). For Phalanx a BLU can get Phalanx II and keep its DEF bonus (Someone mentioned they had to pick one or the other). A RDM could do this as well, but in order to do so it has to sub BLU. At this point it would seem like a stalemate since both have Phalanx and DEF boost. However, with AOE Stun and Flash, it's much easier for a BLU to cast sleep without interruption. Furthermore, a BLU can increase his capabilities through subs (Back when I tanked on BLU I found /PLD to be useless compared to /WAR tbh). I'm not sure how a RDM would fair in this situation, but without AOE Flash or Stun, I would imagine it difficult for a RDM to land sleepaga without interruption. Of course sleepaga can be done by another mage, but why do that when your tank can do it instead (And in the process save the mage some enmity/MP). I'm not sure how effective Sheep Song is as a sub, but if it isn't reliable, you should also consider the fact that some mobs are better slept with light based spells.

Edit: The real difference between BLU and RDM tanking in this scenario is that BLU requires more support, but in exchange for that support, it can probably tank better than a RDM. Never tanked as RDM in Einherjar only as BLU.

[Tsuko_Asura]

The point is, unless you're taking the 30-second window of Sentinel's presence into account, RDM/BLU is going to take less damage than BLU/anything. Flash and Stun are all well and good, but again, things are awake for a few seconds at the most.

And why you would try to condense your group to the point of having your tank be your primary means of keeping a mass quantity of things asleep is beyond my understanding. That's an extraordinary amount of risk, and quite frankly, nowhere near worth it.

EDIT: Sheepsong would be a means of tagging, not sleeping, just like everything else I listed.

EDIT2.0: For the record, thank you actually debating logically, rather than acting like an ignorant twat.