Blue Mage Tanking

[Valkrish]

i completely apologize for feeding the troll.


^____________________________^

[Yugl]

I was thinking use AOE Flash + Stun in order to land sleeps rather than just to build Enmity (That's at least how I tended to use them). Of course if neither is up then you do need to call in other sleepers for support, but for me it was much easier when I slept them since I could use timers to predict when they would wake up. It's risky if AoE Flash/Stun aren't up when you need it, but it's not as if you would eliminate sleepers from the equation, just make them do less work. If this is specifically in regards to Einherjar, I would also point out that BLU is much better at taking/preventing magic damage. Sleepaga may be a method of preventing Thundaga, but in the case of a Sleepaga II + Thundaga III combo (Since all mobs wake up at the same time), you're risking it by not having access to temporal shift/fry pan. The limitation on this of course is MP (Big issue for BLU when comparing MP pools), AoE Range, and recast.

If the argument is about RDM v BLU on damage taken within the frame that mobs are awake, then it would probably be in favor of BLU since AOE Flash/Stun (2x) should be enough time for AoE sleeps to go off. Enmity shouldn't be much of an issue for either RDM or BLU because of Barspells/AOE Diffusion (Actually never used either when mass tanking). Though if I had to give an unrelated reason as to why I would prefer a BLU tank over RDM tank, it would be because RDM has more potential in other aspects of Einherjar. If you're doing Rotation BRD DD PTs like you should, then it becomes clear that Einherjar is pretty much a 30min zerg fest. BLU's damage is utter crap in zerg situations, which is why it would be more meaningful for it to play mass-tank rather than DD. RDM on the other hand can fit in perfectly especially as RDM/DRK depending on the NM.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Hadn't considered the AoE Stun in regard to stunning a dangerous spell, very good point.

Though, I really prefer not to consider job availability as a reason for using a particular class for a particular role.

[Nicholette]

In my previous shell I would go blu/pld always to einherjar and hold mobs/keep them from attacking sleepers. I eat defense food and keep cocoon up (my defense is 700+), spam actinic burst, and temporal shift when mobs wake up, I use frightful roar (lowers everythings defense) and infrasonics (lowers everythings evasion) while asleep as well as sheep song to sleep the mobs or generate enmity on slept ones and Diamondhide to stoneskin myself and the other DD's in the party, which I'm sure they always appreciate. All these are great tools for something like tank/holding mass amount of mobs. I feel as far as this particular thing goes (holding einherjar that is) blu is the best with scholar being the job behind it. I'd only debate my support job choice which I always came /PLD but really wondered if I should try /rdm for phalanx... I think I just like having the sentinel for when 10 mobs are pulled and things could get hairy.

I've never required mass support and am usually just a fixture added in a DD party with 1 whm or 1 rdm healing us all, yes they heal me more but I heal myself too.

Do people think we can stop working on comparisons in this topic and discuss gearsets for macros, what specified gear you might use for each HNM, limbus or einherjar and most of all what spell sets you like to use for the tanking task in each case.

[Massimo]

20 times huh~ obviously you didn't realize that theres a casting delay and a recast? you mean cycle throw the various bar spells? I'm not to impressed with having a Player in a tank role spamming bars in a rainbow while things are happening. If you call this efficient I'm going to have to avoid your strategies in the future on large scale encounters.

"Hey guys, Tsuko just stonega'd the mobs and is now cycling through bar spells while he's getting beat down" is how i picture this scenario.

Now Blu could have stunned them avoided hate, flashed and generated the same emnity with probably about 3 .5 second spells right at the beginning and be doing something productive like magic fruiting allies or some other DD roles.

I'm glad you feel that the jobs are so simplistic and rudimentary that you need no first hand experience to make solid judgements. Why do you play this game if you already know the outcome and the potential combinations of various roles and what they would be like?

And why do you need so much feedback on a similar concept as Pld/Rdm if its so easy for you to foresee?

The.

Up.

Shut.

Fuck.

[Valkrish]

The.

Up.

Shut.

Fuck.

yes.

[astura]

Coming up with some sets to use for blu/nin tanking: (generalized)

Magic set of mermans/coral+1/Lt. stash puts you at -27% magic dmg. (10 MDB trait 14 with lamia mantle+1)
Physical of shield/ring/darksteel+1/umbra cape is -34/40% dmg depending on day/night.
Cure trick set is the same as pld (optional use if you blink weapons of cure potency or more enmity.) To keep cures the same enm/mp ratio as a pld with 5% cure potency on cure 4 (88mp/382 hp so 4.3 enm/mp ratio) a blu needs a 310 hp cure. Taking the worst case of taru/nin (base 54 mnd 659 base vit) it gets 295 base hp on magic fruit. It just needs 12 vit or 6 mnd to make it equal enm/mp ratio to a pld with Hospitaler Earring.

The biggest problems I see is making a set to push ni/ichi timers down and balancing +enm with haste for building hate. For ni pure haste is the best route.
Turban(5)+swift(4)+homam x3 (11)+nahsira mantle(3)+loq earring(1) puts you at 24% haste. The ichi part is tricky because unlike pld you don’t have shielding to fall back on and unlike rdm you cant get it back up instantly.

One possibility is IF we assume you can cap out spell interruption to 100% it’s very easy to get blu up to 73% with just main/sub/neck/back/head or waist. This would be a very interesting set to build up as it leaves very little room for haste or minimizing physical dmg taken as you get more spell interruption gear. (id think of it more as a must get shadows up now set and go –phys dmg after spell interruption reached acceptable levels but this is where a good co tank steps up so you get them back in time ideally)

[VZX]

homam x3 (11)

You mean 9

[LD]

I think he's counting the fast cast from legs, which would make it -11% recast.

[Yugl]

Do people think we can stop working on comparisons in this topic and discuss gearsets for macros, what specified gear you might use for each HNM, limbus or einherjar and most of all what spell sets you like to use for the tanking task in each case.

DEF/VIT Gear mainly (Actually does make a difference on mobs in Einherjar)

I started off using sub PLD because Sentinel is a great damage mitigation tool, but sub WAR is much better when paired with Phalanx. Since the idea was to sleep mobs rather than let them beat on you, I saved AOE Flash/Stuns for when I needed to sleep mobs and used Exuviation in between casts. Diamondhide I didn't bother with since MP is always an issue (Only had Auto Refresh + Sanction + Refresh spell). Set all AoE sleep spells and Yawn since you don't know what mobs you'll get once you enter.

[Ultimagi]

What happened to my thread? Glad it's over anyway.

I didn't put much thought into Blue Mage in a Dynamis or Einherjar supertanking scenario. But one of the biggest benefits I can think of, is that when slept mobs wake up at different times, you can Frypan to wake them all up, keep them stunned, and land a Soporific to reapply Sleep before they wake up.

As for Blue Mage having nothing to offer on top of other tanking jobs, it has the highest possible combination of Physical Damage Reduction and Defense, as well as Magic Damage Reduction and Magic Defense. Someone mentioned equipping Magic Defense Bonus job trait and equipment, but its really unnecessary if you can cast Saline Coat when you see the enemy casting on you and cap it out anyway.

[AoshiZ]

I'm really sorry guys. I shouldn't have continued to argue with someone on a point and should have realized that it would just drag on and on. I also should have realized its pointless to try and convince one person versus leaving information for the rest to decide on their own.

As blu mages have attested so far, its great for super tanking. Our LS use them in Dynamis and Einherjar quite often for this role. The AE stuns hold the mobs long enough to land sleep quickly and efficiently. The BLU's also cycle stuns and various other abilities to maintain and hold hate on mobs that cannot be slept such as Hydra and Eyes. AE bind is useful as well.

Again, I apologize... I'll try not to be drawn in next time to pointless arguments

[Meian]

As it has been said before, it is tempting to spam more spells when given the amount we have as BLU. However, sometimes I am unsure if I did enough enmity build up to accomodate dual tanking with a PLD.

[Suiram]

As it has been said before, it is tempting to spam more spells when given the amount we have as BLU. However, sometimes I am unsure if I did enough enmity build up to accomodate dual tanking with a PLD.

This is what I've noticed tanking with a PLD. At the start of a fight, for a short period of time (maybe 1-2 minutes at most) the PLD has all of the hate, and you are trying to catch up (but you have full MP anyway). This is followed by another period, maybe 5-6 minutes at most, where the situation is reversed, and the BLU is considerably ahead of the PLD. Then it levels out, and assuming nothing goes wrong and the PLD is competent, it goes back and forth more or less at will. It's at this point where you don't really need to be spamming mindlessly. Maybe use Exuviation whenever it is up, but the other spells you can use more tactically. If you keep spamming at this point you are more likely than at other points to run out of MP, but it isn't even necessary.

[Nicholette]

This is what I've noticed tanking with a PLD. At the start of a fight, for a short period of time (maybe 1-2 minutes at most) the PLD has all of the hate, and you are trying to catch up (but you have full MP anyway). This is followed by another period, maybe 5-6 minutes at most, where the situation is reversed, and the BLU is considerably ahead of the PLD. Then it levels out, and assuming nothing goes wrong and the PLD is competent, it goes back and forth more or less at will. It's at this point where you don't really need to be spamming mindlessly. Maybe use Exuviation whenever it is up, but the other spells you can use more tactically. If you keep spamming at this point you are more likely than at other points to run out of MP, but it isn't even necessary.

I diffusion exhuviation in the beginning always to get things capped quick and get ready for the DD to begin. I prefer tanking with a nin/drk or rdm/nin to keep an even ground in hate, in my experience PLD is always behind.

For the discussion about ichi, I use -physical gear + haste, there really is no solution like a shield in this case, i try to cast while i have shadows still up and cancel at the last second sometimes i eff up though and can cause a problem but rarely. With slow and elegy on tia you can practically tank with ichi only just overwriting it and losing/getting hate at perfect times with your cotank.

[astura]

So basically would you recommend just swapping into a physical reduction set with at least 12-15% haste then? (only ask about 12-15 as im looking to see the max reduction i could squeeze in while still having enough to keep ichi timers down reasonably).
Well as for enmity its better for blu imo to swap to light staff as 10% more cure potency produces more hate then double mach+1 (8 enm). As for making enmity/haste set that's fairly easy to do:
mach+1(4)/Mach+1(4)/range
turban/harmonica(3)/eris+1 x2 (6)
morrigans/homam(3)/mermaids(2)/ring2
cerebus+1(4)/swift/homam/homam

Nets you auto refresh, +26 enm, and 20% recast reduction.
looking to compare base mp/enmity values on spells (not cures):

Jettatura 180 CE 1020 VE 37 mp (4.86 CE 27.56 VE 32.4 TE)
Blank Gaze 320 CE 320 VE 25mp (12.8 CE 12.8 VE 25.6 TE)
Actinic Burst 180 CE 1020 VE 24 mp (7.5 CE 42.5 VE 50 TE)
Temporal Shift 180 CE 1020 VE 48 mp (3.75 CE 21.25 VE 25 TE)
Exuviation 640 CE 640 VE 40 mp (16 CE 16 VE 32 TE)
Magic fruit (330 w/ staff no+enm)= 240 CE 1440 VE 72 mp (3.3 CE 20 VE 23.3 TE)
wild carrot (178 staff no+enm)= 128 CE 777 VE 37 mp (3.5 CE 21 VE 24.5 TE)

Once you look at recast timers the best way to maintain CE would alterntating temp. shift/jettura every minute and 2 Actinic burst per minute. with +26 enm you have a net gain of {(1020*3*1.26)-1800*2(decay per 30 seconds)}= 255 VE 540 CE (before CE loss of shadows). The main problem i see with blu as a tank is way to maintain VE gain against DD's. All our spells have CE components that easily covers any CE loss through shadows but achieving a high VE total outside of aoe exuvation burst will be the hard part to overcome though its easy to maintain that VE with minimal effort.

[Kaeko]

Try using more "Cure macro" Magic Fruit if you are having issues with VE. While curing for hate is very inefficient for CE, it generates massive VE. In your table you listed out 1440 VE for 72 MP, which is pretty efficient. You may run out of MP if you repeatedly do this, but remember, once you reach VE cap, you just have to keep up with the decay rate, which your suggested spell order does.

[[Cookies]]

-50% is Terra Staff, Umbral Cape (at night), Jelly ring, and Defending ring? Crazy setup but BLU can wear these (if not defending you could have darksteel gear but i don't think it was -50%). Stoneskin? Blu has that(not as good). So how exactly does Rdm take alot less damage? you mean the difference between blu stoneskin(diamondhide) and Rdm? or the Phalanx? Phalanx is good I'll admit in some instances but not against heavy hitters. Not to mention cacoon is a main job ablity of blu so you're saying that the rdm needs to sub blu to take advantage. In which case the argument can be made that blu can sub pld for sentinel.

Late reply but -50% is Terra's Staff, Umbra Cape (night time), Jelly Ring and full Darksteel +1. Sure BLU can wear that stuff too but BLU can't even get close to a 410 damage Stoneskin.

[astura]

well yeah i first figured 1800 VE decay at every 30 seconds so you need to overcome 3600 VE loss a minute at 1020 base VE for actentic burst jettura and temporal shift you can do at maxed recast 4 burst and 2 of each jet/temp shift. if you use 3 of these pet minute you 3060 VE> to overcome the decay per minute you need +enm of 3600/3060 or +18 enm or higher to overcome a positive net VE gain per minute. the set i outlined had +26 and with hq food you reach +30 so its 3978 VE per minute -3600 net loss per minute and you gained 378 VE a minute. Incidentally all of those have a CE component of 180 each so 180*3*1.3(enm gear+food) and you yield 702 CE a minute which easily would overcome any CE loss of shadows (-25 CE loss per shadow 12 max possible per minute so -300 per minute at max so a net gain of 400 CE)

As for cures you'll net more VE and CE per 2 wild carrots then magic fruit. (74 mp for 256 VE 1554 vrs 72 mp for 240 CE 1440 VE). I'm fairly confident that blu/nin tank once they have sufficiently caped out VE they can easily maintained caped hate. The reason i say VE is that this simple cylce of 2 burst+ temporal shift per minute yields a net gain 402 CE and 378 VE after decays of CE/VE are taken into account. This only requires a upkeep of 24+24+40 or a max of 90 mp a minute which is gotten with 4.5 mp per tic.
Autorefresh trait+refresh and one other source overcomes this, though at 7 mp a tic (body+trait+refresh+2 ballad) you have another 50 mp per minute to use as needed.

What I would do to cap out hate is aoe exuviation (+30 enm gear) for 4.9k CE and VE using 9 magic fruits within 2 minutes of that you have achieved caped VE (accounting for -3600 VE decay per minute) and can safely build up CE with cycling of low mp spells like blank gaze and the temporal shift/jettura, Act. Burstx2 ,as a cycle per minute, till caped CE (easily done in about 2-3 minutes). This would have a blu/nin at caped or near caped CE and VE within 5-6 minutes and maintaining it with minimal effort (3 spells per minute).

[Ultimagi]

If you replace the usual White Mage in the tank party with a Scholar, the Scholar can give your Blue Mage tank 380 Stoneskin, which is only 30 short of a Red Mage.