New DK Rune of the Stoneskin Gargoyle or...Rune of Swordshattering???

[Lbelle]

If you're def capped, would you go with the new rune (25 DEFENSE + 2% stam) vs. Rune of Swordshattering (Parry chance by 4% and reduces the duration of Disarm effects by 50%. )

Now. You may be thinking, "You're def capped why the F would you get a runeword w/ Defense on it??" But here's the thing, as you progress through raids and stuff, the amount of DEF on tank gear gets lower, while other mitigation stats get bigger and higher. A blue set of gloves has 71 def rating, but an epic one may have only 50something, but have more stam and other good stats.

Is 4% parry really worth it, if we're able to completely re-gem our gear for better stats? I'm not sure it is, but I'm not sure that is ISN'T either. I could wear alot more of great gear that I've acquired and regem it with stam/dodge/parry instead of constantly sticking defense gems in them to hit cap.

What are your opinions on this new Rune?

[Rivero]

It's probably entirely better TBH unless you are PvPing against a disarming class. I'm not sure how it works on Death Knight but defense rating now adds dodge and parry as well doesn't it? 2% Stamina is pretty impressive when most tanks run at around 1100+ stamina.

I'd say that 4% parry won't really do shit for you and if you can't make use of the 25 defense rating then that extra 2% stamina is very nice. : p If we're talking about a PvP scenario then the reduced disarm rate is very nice (assuming you're up against a smart person who uses their disarm skills).

PvP (Melee scenario or in general for the hell of it) = Swordshattering

PvE = Stoneskin Garg

[Norellicus]

Don't forget that defense continues to be useful beyond the crit cap as well, since it still contributes to your avoidance in areas that parry/dodge rating alone cannot (as well as contributing a little of both of those, as well). Don't know if it would as much as 4% parry, but it's something to think about, especially considering the 2% stam, since as you said raid gear will only continue to extend your stam value (and if that 2% stacks with kings it'll eek out even more).

As for gemming, I think I'd totally regem stuff if this rune could get me to the cap instead, ya.

[Plow]

4% parry is fucking amaaaaaaaaaazing.


Compare your stats, don't consider switching until it gives you 4% raw avoidance in other gear.

Period.

Well, maybe 3-3.5%, since it gives stam too. I value raw avoidance over stam at this point, though.

[Dantrag]

Going to use rune of garg and regem all of my stuff for more stam or avoidance in general. Will be nice not have to specifically gem towards def. Also i've been reading that the def on the wep will be something like 3% avoidance from dodge/parry/miss anyways. Last point, more def = more % reduction from IBF.

[Rivero]

Don't forget that defense continues to be useful beyond the crit cap as well, since it still contributes to your avoidance in areas that parry/dodge rating alone cannot (as well as contributing a little of both of those, as well). Don't know if it would as much as 4% parry, but it's something to think about, especially considering the 2% stam, since as you said raid gear will only continue to extend your stam value (and if that 2% stacks with kings it'll eek out even more).

As for gemming, I think I'd totally regem stuff if this rune could get me to the cap instead, ya.

If they ever make Blood viable for tanking there's an extra 6% in there as well. : p

[Lbelle]

Good points in this thread. I was a bit nervous to ask this since I thought it may have sounded like a stupid question, but I got great answers so thanks guys.

[Norellicus]

4% parry is fucking amaaaaaaaaaazing.


Compare your stats, don't consider switching until it gives you 4% raw avoidance in other gear.

Period.

Well, maybe 3-3.5%, since it gives stam too. I value raw avoidance over stam at this point, though.

25 Defense is 25 Defense, it gives the same amount of avoidance no matter how you slice it. And based on the 1 skill = 0.04% miss/dodge/parry/block, 25 skill does indeed come out to be 3% total avoidance, plus the stam to round out your TTL a lot better than a straight 4% parry does (imo).

Since it's a % increase to your stamina, it scales; avoidance doesn't.

[FailureMidgard]

1 defense skill = .04 dodge, parry, and miss chance.

25 defense skill = 1% dodge, 1% parry, 1% miss (pre-DR). You also get 2% stam on top of that, and more versatility in what gear you can get.

I don't think either choice is flat out wrong overall.

As far as ilvl:
4% parry ~= 197.3 parry rating ~= 12.3 gems.

25 defense skill ~= 123 defense rating ~= 7.7 gems.
2% stam ~= 48 stam = 2 gems

So the parry rune is worth far more ilvl of gems, but the defense one will allow you to gem dodge (which is far more avoidance per point than parry) or stam or expertise/hit.


*shrug* depends on your gear, and preference.

Edit:

Since it's a % increase to your stamina, it scales; avoidance doesn't.

This is incorrect kinda. First of all, the defense part of that choice is subjected to DR, so the more dodge/parry you get, the less the 25defense will give you. It will -never- be 3% avoidance, because DR starts kicking in even at the absolute lowest dodge/parry you can possibly attain. Second, the 4% parry is actually outside of DR, so the "static" 4% avoidance actually does scale. The better gear you have (specifically, the more parry you have on your gear), the more parry rating it is worth.
Finally, as I already put in, the parry rune is giving far more item points/ilvl worth of stats. It is giving so much more than no matter how much that stamina scales, the defense/stamina rune will -never- catch up. "Scaling" is not always a valid argument.

f(x) = x scales faster than f(x) = 2000. But if you will only ever be in the range <1000, it's irrelevant which scales faster.

[Arcana]

Yeah as a paladin even i would love 4% parry on my weapon, the 25 defense seems to have less of a return than parry + 4%, even with a 2% increase to stam. dont get me wrong 2% bonus to stam is nice, but theres buffs that increase your stamina but none that really increase your parry by such a high percentage.

[Jotaru]

Edit: Completely redid my post as I researched a little bit.

I initially wrote that +Parry would suffer from Diminishing Returns whereas +Defense would not, in complete disagreement with FailureMidgard. After rereading his post I investigated a little bit, and it seems both pure +avoidance stats as well as +Defense both have diminishing returns- thus, Defense would not necessarily be better, as was my initial wager, but it also invalidates a large portion of FailureMidgard's post as well, as +Parry isn't 'better' than +Defense. Read on if interested-

Link for further reading: http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t37409-a...shing_returns/

In other words, the +Parry from the rune will not 'scale' with gear, unless Blizz releases it to be counted differently, which it very well may be- there is no DR on talents, base agility, etc [Gorek]. I do want to agree with what Midgard is saying about comparing item points / ilvl, in a roundabout way... Mostly as per Arcana's post-

the 25 defense seems to have less of a return than parry + 4%, even with a 2% increase to stam

I see a lot of people make sweeping statements like this, completely unaware that they may be contradicting their own bonuses from gear, talents, etc... for example, giving up 10 stam on a chest upgrade for 10 parry rating, but then getting 'better' boots that give you 10 more stam, and only losing 10 parry! Huzzah! It is definitely worthwhile with so many notable stats and so many variable pieces of gear to way each items 'rating', total contribution, tank equivalence points, however you want to figure it... so that this does not happen. While the 4% parry might appear to be superior to the +25 defense/stam rune, consider that, at some point in time, you've probably replaced <1% avoidance with ~430+HP... which, after buffs, is about the difference here is, which you'd be passing up.

[FailureMidgard]

You are 100% incorrect, any DK can test this.

Take your weapon, put a rune on with no defensive stats at all, then switch to the 4% parry rune. Your parry chance will go up by exactly 4.00%.

DR only affects +agility on items, +defense rating on items, +parry rating on items, +dodge rating on items.

Refer to my original post to see why something not affected by DR does in fact "scale with gear" as opposed to the rating being given elsewhere. It is actually possible that the defense will not be affected by DR either, but I doubt it...

[Jotaru]

I am not 100% wrong, you just fail at reading comprehension, perhaps. I do not play a DK, I do not know how the 4% Parry rune works.

That being said- ok, the 4% Parry does not suffer from diminishing returns. That doesn't negate anything else in my post that was said, so although you get ten points for trying to be internet tough guy jerkoff, you inevitably fail.

Also, THAT being said- if the +Parry on a rune isn't affected by DR, there's a solid chance the +Defense won't, either; I'm not sure why you 'doubt' it, considering the other runes apparently are off DR.. you have no reason to believe otherwise, I'd say. Shrug.

[Ishido]

I am not 100% wrong, you just fail at reading comprehension, perhaps. I do not play a DK, I do not know how the 4% Parry rune works.

That being said- ok, the 4% Parry does not suffer from diminishing returns. That doesn't negate anything else in my post that was said, so although you get ten points for trying to be internet tough guy jerkoff, you inevitably fail.

Also, THAT being said- if the +Parry on a rune isn't affected by DR, there's a solid chance the +Defense won't, either; I'm not sure why you 'doubt' it, considering the other runes apparently are off DR.. you have no reason to believe otherwise, I'd say. Shrug.

It's an assumption based off of the fact that one gives you the stat, the other is worded so that it apparently gives you the % increase, not parry rating. I would not doubt Blizzard saying 4% parry and making the actual effect give rating, but at this point the assumption that defense will continue to DR and flat % will not seems more sound.

[FailureMidgard]

I am not 100% wrong, you just fail at reading comprehension, perhaps. I do not play a DK, I do not know how the 4% Parry rune works.

That being said- ok, the 4% Parry does not suffer from diminishing returns. That doesn't negate anything else in my post that was said, so although you get ten points for trying to be internet tough guy jerkoff, you inevitably fail.

Also, THAT being said- if the +Parry on a rune isn't affected by DR, there's a solid chance the +Defense won't, either; I'm not sure why you 'doubt' it, considering the other runes apparently are off DR.. you have no reason to believe otherwise, I'd say. Shrug.

Edit: Completely redid my post as I researched a little bit.

I initially wrote that +Parry would suffer from Diminishing Returns whereas +Defense would not, in complete disagreement with FailureMidgard. After rereading his post I investigated a little bit, and it seems both pure +avoidance stats as well as +Defense both have diminishing returns- thus, Defense would not necessarily be better, as was my initial wager, but it also invalidates a large portion of FailureMidgard's post as well, as +Parry isn't 'better' than +Defense. Read on if interested-

Link for further reading: Avoidance Diminishing Returns - Elitist Jerks

In other words, the +Parry from the rune will not 'scale' with gear, unless Blizz releases it to be counted differently, which it very well may be- there is no DR on talents, base agility, etc [Gorek]. I do want to agree with what Midgard is saying about comparing item points / ilvl, in a roundabout way... Mostly as per Arcana's post-

That entire section is incorrect. See where you directly contradicted my post? See where you say my post was "invalidated"? Don't sit here and try to call me wrong when you are the one wrong, then try to bash my reading comprehension. That entire section, that was responding to me, was 100% wrong. I don't even care about the part you wrote below. I personally never make that mistake when upgrading my gear, maybe others do. I do analyze exactly what I am losing and gaining, and make sure it is a tradeoff I am willing to live with.

4% parry does "Scale with gear". The "scaling" is relative, because parry rating on gear actually DRs. Dodge rating on gear actually DRs, so the return you get from them scales down, whereas 4% parry does not.

As for my assumption on defense, as someone said, the things that do not DR are the things that give +% avoidance. Specifically talents that add +% dodge/parry, racials that add +% miss chance, and anything else that adds +% instead of +rating/skill.

Sorry, I'm not trying to be an "internet tough guy" here, but it's pretty irritating when you come in and claim to invalidate my post, when every statement you made in response to me was incorrect. My original post is still 100% accurate and correct.

[Jotaru]

Take your weapon, put a rune on with no defensive stats at all, then switch to the 4% parry rune. Your parry chance will go up by exactly 4.00%.

Perhaps you fail to comprehend Diminishing Returns and this entire conversation is a moot point anyway; I can put on enough parry rating to give me 4.00% on the character sheet, but that's not what I'm actually giving. The character sheet stats are before diminishing returns. Do you have some proof/evidence/POIDH on the 4% parry on the rune not being on DR? You continue to say it doesn't (even going so far as completely rewriting your post, that's pretty awesome), but I've yet to see reason to believe so. Like I've said before, I'm no DK, I don't visit DK boards, perhaps its been tested and proven, but your solution of 'it says so on the character sheet' is flawed.

[FailureMidgard]

Perhaps you fail to comprehend Diminishing Returns and this entire conversation is a moot point anyway; I can put on enough parry rating to give me 4.00% on the character sheet, but that's not what I'm actually giving. The character sheet stats are before diminishing returns. Do you have some proof/evidence/POIDH on the 4% parry on the rune not being on DR? You continue to say it doesn't (even going so far as completely rewriting your post, that's pretty awesome), but I've yet to see reason to believe so. Like I've said before, I'm no DK, I don't visit DK boards, perhaps its been tested and proven, but your solution of 'it says so on the character sheet' is flawed.

Once again you are incorrect, and you can do the following simple test to show exactly what part of the character sheet has DR.

I'll go through it step by step on my warrior (I'm normally our MT...pvp spec atm, so some #s will be lower than they should be).

No gear on:
118 agility, 400 defense (adds 0.00 dodge), 0 dodge rating (adds 0.00 dodge).
Chance to dodge = 5.07%

All gear on except legs:
118 agility, 531 defense (adds 5.24 dodge), 464 dodge rating (adds 11.79 dodge).
If character sheet did not show post DR sets, you would expect my character sheet dodge to be 5.07+5.24+11.79=22.1%
What is my actual character sheet dodge? 19.89%
22.1-19.89=2.21% dodge being lost to DR.

Let's go ahead and get another data point somewhere between these 2.
Taking off 5 more pieces of gear:
118 agility, 476 defense (adds 3.04 dodge), 300 dodge rating (adds 7.62 dodge).
Pre DR chance to dodge: 5.07+3.04+7.62=15.73%
Actual character sheet dodge chance: 14.97%
15.73-14.97=.76% dodge lost to DR.

The character sheet reads like this:

Defense A
Increases chance to Dodge, Block, and Parry by B%.
Decreases chance to be hit and critically hit by B%.
(Before diminishing returns)

Dodge Chance C%
Dodge Rating of D adds E% Dodge.
(Before diminishing returns)


Some facts about this character sheet readout:
1. Block and -% crit do not DR, even though the defense stat says "before DR". -%hit may not also, I'm actually unsure on this one.
2. E% is the pre-DR dodge value. C% is the POST-DR FINAL VALUE OF DODGE. (B% on the defense-contribution to dodge is also pre-DR).
3. Rune of Swordshattering adds directly to C%, it ignores the E% step.

I fully understand the math behind DR, I fully understand how these stats work together, I am the main tank of one of the best guilds in the world. I don't know who you are, or why you insist on trying to call me wrong, but I am correct and you are still wrong.

Edit, DR formula applied to my above #s:

1/Ad = 1/c + k/A
531def/464 dodge rating example:
k = .956
A = 17.03
1/c = 0.011347
1/Ad = .011347 + .056136 = .067483
Ad = 1/.067483 = 14.81%

17.03-14.81=2.22% dodge lost to DR. Hey, looks dead on except it's rounded incorrectly (I probably kept too many decimal points in my calculation).

I could do this for the others, but I'm too lazy. Character sheet total dodge % is after DR. Dodge rating's contribution to dodge (the sub category where it says X rating adds Y%) is pre-DR.

Link to the full post on calculating DR:
http://www.tankspot.com/forums/f63/4...avoidance.html

[Plow]

Yeah, uh people are trying to argue based on the assumption that people haven't tested the shit out, the reality is the math was understood in beta.


Failure's right, it's just hard (I guess) to grasp the concept that it "scales" with gear by not getting any worse.

[Brien]

get the %stam, for the sake of your healers!

[Jotaru]

Failure's right, it's just hard (I guess) to grasp the concept that it "scales" with gear by not getting any worse.

The only hard to grasp part I suppose was that I was not under the idea that the Parry% was not on DR; I hadn't seen facts otherwise. I concede he's correct, and has the math / links to back it up, and I'm not too proud to admit that- obviously I misunderstood something, shrug.

That being said, out of curiousity, what server/guild do you play on Failure? Good theorycrafting ftw :]

/legbetweentails, yadda yadda.