Puppetmaster Parse

[Ahlah]

The best person to tell which job has the potential to become top DD in this game is you. I suggest you level WAR to 75 (if you haven't done it yet), try out dual wield Maneater/Joyuse and Gaxe yourself.

I am not going to be nasty to you but it's pretty obvious you have very little experience with 2h weapon. The power of 6 hit build DD lies in the fact that it allows melees to build TP extremely fast so that they can unleash their powerful weaponskill. DoT means nothing when mob dies so fast you don't even have time to land enough number of hits. That's the main reason why ppl judge the performance of DD jobs in OP's parse result based on WS damage, cuz that's the main source of damage for most 2h DD jobs.

You know any online game involves real players and ppl are realistic. If BST has the potential to become a great DD job it will have been discovered by now. There are many smart players in this game, if ppl who own Guttler admit they can't outperform other melee jobs what makes you think you can keep up with well geared DD?

[ubermonkey]

The fact is that folks have decided which jobs are real DD based primarily on WS damage and other spike damage beneficial in certain endgame situations rather than based on DoT. Further, pet jobs in general get a bad rap because even folks who do pay attention to DoT tend to underestimate the contributions of the pet to the job's damage.

Hi. I'm mnk. I do DoT.

[Okan]

My argument is simple. People level jobs because they enjoy it. Of course things change and they might not enjoy it as much as they did leveling it, like me it was BLM. [This is excluding people who level for Maat's Cap]

If you are trying to min/max everything, then I can understand wanting a 2H WAR over a Man/Fort BST. However, if you want to piss your friends off, tell them they can't come on the job(s) they enjoy playing and force them in to being a career BLM. I hate BLM and people don't seem to understand that. Yes, my BLM is 75. No, that does not mean I want to play it. I gladly will in "ohshi" situations where we absolutely need a BLM. No, I will not buy new gear for it so you'll have to deal with my horrible gear for it. All my money is focused on BST and WHM.

This is a game. Why is it so hard to accept a friend in to a party because he's XXX job? Does getting that extra 2000xp an hour when you're already getting 25000+xp an hour really make that much of a difference to you?

Of course the person will understand that they can't do some things on their random job like Nidhogg or Odin, but you could just shrug it off and deal with it when they want to do say... Dynamis, right?

[Kumbai]

Does getting that extra 2000xp an hour when you're already getting 25000+xp an hour really make that much of a difference to you?

Yes :3

[Okan]

To me, that means you'd force a friend, regardless of what job they wanted to play, in to a job that meets your requirements for a min/max party even if it was one that they absolutely never wanted to play...

Doesn't sound like a fun party.

Edit: Keep in mind, I am talking about decently smart players. Not talking about that SMN who SJ's BLM because he doesn't want to heal anyone or THF with DRK SJ because Souleater looks cool.

[The Stig]

But if a friend doesn't meet your requirements, then it won't be a fun party overall for everyone involved

[Okan]

I'd agree if they wanted to be a 100% melee BRD and dragged your experience to a crawling 5k an hour, but that isn't the case and you are still making 25k and hour.

And hell, I stopped playing 3 years ago when 5k was the awesome thing to get. 6k if you were in a good mana/rampage/mnk party... So anything above 10k to me is basically incredible.

[pchan]

Full Usukane isn't exactly easy to get. There's some stuff he could easily obtain or use that's better for TP (W.turban, PCC, Swift Belt), but most of the Pantin stuff is pretty good compared to the non-Usukane alternatives.

Not really, you can build yourself a very interseting PUP melee gear without usukane. On top of my head, turban, enkidu Body, AF2 gloves, enkidu feet, barbarossa (17% haste, same as usukane). I'd call this gear good when paired with swift belt. But yeah, "somewhat well gear" would at least have swift/turban/dble sniper/pcc for like 15% more damage than what he does. This and the fact that RNG puppet is shit, 20sec range attack & miss a lot paired with crap melee skill which he has to rely on to build TP...

[Ahlah]

If you are trying to min/max everything, then I can understand wanting a 2H WAR over a Man/Fort BST. However, if you want to piss your friends off, tell them they can't come on the job(s) they enjoy playing and force them in to being a career BLM. I hate BLM and people don't seem to understand that. Yes, my BLM is 75. No, that does not mean I want to play it. I gladly will in "ohshi" situations where we absolutely need a BLM. No, I will not buy new gear for it so you'll have to deal with my horrible gear for it. All my money is focused on BST and WHM.

I don't think ppl will object if you want to bring your BST to LS merit party. Meriting with friends is like playing a few casual basketball games with your friends. No1 really cares how good you are. If you are in a professional basketball tournament you will be expected to perform well.

Ppl don't join pick up party because they enjoy killing greater colibri, they do it for merit points. You can't blame them for not inviting weaker DD jobs. What really annoy me are those who keep denying the fact that BST is way behind other DD jobs when it comes to DD capacity and the job deserves some adjustment. The last time SE gave BST something useful to boost their DD performance was in 2006 when they added CoP jugpets before ToAU release. Many jobs have moved on since then, how can you expect BST to keep up with other melee job?

[Okan]

I don't think ppl will object if you want to bring your BST to LS merit party. Meriting with friends is like playing a few casual basketball games with your friends. No1 really cares how good you are. If you are in a professional basketball tournament you will be expected to perform well.

I completely agree with this statement which is why I brought up Nidhogg and Odin (tournaments) and dynamis (casual games) for people to pick their jobs as long as the basis is covered like healing and tanking. If I was to go fight Odin or camp Nidhogg, I wouldn't do so on BST unless there was a specific reason for doing so. Like Tiamat add control is one.

Ppl don't join pick up party because they enjoy killing greater colibri, they do it for merit points. You can't blame them for not inviting weaker DD jobs. What really annoy me are those who keep denying the fact that BST is way behind other DD jobs when it comes to DD capacity and the job deserves some adjustment. The last time SE gave BST something useful to boost their DD performance was in 2006 when they added CoP jugpets before ToAU release. Many jobs have moved on since then, how can you expect BST to keep up with other melee job?

Again, I understand this. I'm not trying to argue that PUP or BST are #1 DPSLAWLZINURFACE type of jobs, but they can do acceptable amounts of damage. Maybe I've grown a bit since playing this once upon a time ago when I'd have agreed that BST and DRG should have no spot at any event due to low damage. By no means am I saying I am more mature, just more... casual? I dont' care to camp ground kings. I don't care to blow through content in 15 seconds. I know for a fact that having a BST in a party won't make it suck. I know that people can do Nyzul/Salvage/HNMs with BST in the party. I'm just trying to understand why people are so anti-everythingnotmainstream anymore and can't be accepting of ideas outside the box or just suck it up and try something silly for fun?

Then again, I only care to do lowman content now because I'm sick of getting screwed by other people. Far too many people have taken this game far too serious -- and by that I mean that if you don't do what the "norm" is, you get blacklisted and no one will care what you do or say.

I apologize if I'm not getting my message acrossed legibly. I wake up at 4am for work and don't function very well in the mornings.

[Riel]

Ahlah it's funny that you say I know little about 2H DD while you obviously know very little about BST. I don't expect SE to break the game by overpowering BST to the point where you think it's a good DD. On the same token, I don't expect bandwagon types to give a second glance to even the most glaring evidence that so-called "gimp DD jobs" are actually on par with those doing higher WS damage.

The "mob dies too fast" logic is so very tired. You do realize merit parties tend to fight more than one mob in a session right?

The ONLY change I would suggest for BST personally is an upgrade to the 2hour so that it does something useful for jug pets, like TP regain or boost their level by 10 or something for spike damage. Also, DC and EM mobs near merit camps would help a TON. You might be able to rationalize away parses with Lars but a real EM mob and a BST unarguably do shitloads of DoT.

All that said, I'll start a separate thread to argue about this once I have at least a decent amount of empirical evidence to support my claims. Carry on.

[Ahlah]

This is so sad, I thought similar post can only be found in Allakazham BST forum, never expect to see them here.

Take a look at my list of lv75 jobs, I even have 8/8 Katana merits. I have tried all the stuff you mentioned - EM pet/ Lars. My BST don't even come close to my WAR even before SE introduce 2h weapon update. I used to a big fan of dualwield DD (even have 8/8 Katana merit). Before 2h weapon update my NIN usually outparse most DD jobs in merit party except ridill WAR and well geared BB MNK. I took WAR to lv75 using Maneater/Joyeuse, never look back after I switched to WAR/SAM Gaxe and have even outparsed several Ridill WAR. You obviously have no idea the devastation inflicted by 2h weapon update upon 1h melee jobs. I suggest you actually level a 2h melee job before you make silly comment like this:

The "mob dies too fast" logic is so very tired. You do realize merit parties tend to fight more than one mob in a session right?

If BST can't compete with other DD job in term of damage output, how else can BST contribute to a LS/merit party? Anything BST can do, other jobs can do it better. No1 wants DRG 2years ago and now they are one of the most desirable job in merit party, Spirit surge allows them to ditch out spike damage and Angon is irreplaceable for zerg fight, and they still retain the power to solo EM-T mob. Why should BST be any different from DRG?

[Riel]

This is so sad, I thought similar post can only be found in Allakazham BST forum, never expect to see them here.

Take a look at my list of lv75 jobs, I even have 8/8 Katana merits. I have tried all the stuff you mentioned - EM pet/ Lars. My BST don't even come close to my WAR even before SE introduce 2h weapon update. I used to a big fan of dualwield DD (even have 8/8 Katana merit). Before 2h weapon update my NIN usually outparse most DD jobs in merit party except ridill WAR and well geared BB MNK. I took WAR to lv75 using Maneater/Joyeuse, never look back after I switched to WAR/SAM Gaxe and have even outparsed several Ridill WAR. You obviously have no idea the devastation inflicted by 2h weapon update upon 1h melee jobs. I suggest you actually level a 2h melee job before you make silly comment like this:

If BST can't compete with other DD job in term of damage output, how else can BST contribute to a LS/merit party? Anything BST can do, other jobs can do it better. No1 wants DRG 2years ago and now they are one of the most desirable job in merit party, Spirit surge allows them to ditch out spike damage and Angon is irreplaceable for zerg fight, and they still retain the power to solo EM-T mob. Why should BST be any different from DRG?

Your BST sucked or you simply ignored reality if you think your WAR outparsed it before the 2h update. The 2h update did indeed screw dual wielders in general, but I read you as trying to say that axe BST couldnt parse axe WAR, which I know very very well not to be true. Also Man/Ridll WAR vs Man/Temp. BST is not a fair comparison, as BST can use Ridill also (at least in merits, which is what we are talking about).

Addionally, the introduction of Snarl, which you conveniently forgot about in an earlier post, makes BST even less of an MP sink than it already was, unlike say... a WAR/SAM.

BST needs some adjustment, but really 1h weapons need fixed in general. The job could use some spike damage capability as well, probably most easily added through changes to the 2 hour.

I'm not naive, a well geared and merited 2h WAR will certainly parse an equally equipped and merited BST due to the 2h update. What they will NOT do is blow them out of the water, and many well geared PUP, BST, etc. do not get invited to pickup groups on general principle while gimp ass players with gimp ass equipment on "better" jobs do. This is dumb.


Anyhow, if we're going to continue this discussion it should be in PM or another thread.

[Ahlah]

You know normally I will have showed you some "real lesson" but I am not going to shout at you because I feel bad for you.

Go back to Allakhazam, look for information posted by ppl who owned Guttler, and take a look at their gear and read about their comment. It has been mentioned numerous time by Guttler owners who have all the top DD gears you can find in this game they can't compete with equally well geared WAR and that's before 2h weapon update. WAR has B- skill in sword and they still do better than Maneater/Temp axe BST because the job comes with JA and merits that greatly enhance its DD capacity.

And please show me how exactly is Snarl going to enhance your DD performance? Unlike SAM SJ which at least offer storeTP and meditate, Snarl has never had any impact on BST DD capacit. Who care whether BST/NIN take less damage when they can't even deal enough damage to pull hate? Ppl argue they can now sub WAR and gain benefit from double attack and berserk but you lose the ability to dualwield Temp axe. I feel sad ppl can't even figure out such a simple concept on their own.

You are also missing a very important point, even though 1h DD are generally compromised by 2h weapon update, they still have other use in endgame events. THF has Feint, TH and hate control tools. NIN is still a highly versatile job. BST on the other hand has zero unique party friendly ability. Please name me a situation where BST shine in party situation.

Seriously if you still think BST has ever come close to WAR even before 2h weapon update you really need to do more research. Better still, level WAR and see it yourself. As I said before ppl are realistic, there are tons of melee jobs in this game and the competition for melee spots in events or merit party is fierce. If BST can really put up a good fight ppl will have noticed it by now.

[JigglyJam]

Not really, you can build yourself a very interseting PUP melee gear without usukane. On top of my head, turban, enkidu Body, AF2 gloves, enkidu feet, barbarossa (17% haste, same as usukane). I'd call this gear good when paired with swift belt. But yeah, "somewhat well gear" would at least have swift/turban/dble sniper/pcc for like 15% more damage than what he does. This and the fact that RNG puppet is shit, 20sec range attack & miss a lot paired with crap melee skill which he has to rely on to build TP...

I didn't read the posts below this but I just have to ask what attachments and manuevers are you using so that the Sharpshot is "shit"?

While leveling PUP in my experience the RNG automaton was the best at DD in exp parties. I could get BLM Stormwaker pretty close but that involves crap loads of work on my part. Does this change 61+ ?(Only leveled to 61 so far)

[Appie]

hahahahah! Sorry Arthars I didn't mean yours ^_~

I know about the Astral flow instant level up thing at lower levels with all the summoners o: It's pretty sweet, I watched a level sync party in Bubrimbu gain like 6 levels instantly.

I actually completely forgot about this, so thanks Arthars for refreshing my memory. Maybe my DNC will finally get 37 now.

[Meian]

How is Sharpshooter "shit" ? If you meant super endgame, then you wouldn't be meleeing to begin with (or on PUP either I think).

I doubt you'd use anything else on Birds...

[Okan]

Your BST sucked or you simply ignored reality if you think your WAR outparsed it before the 2h update. The 2h update did indeed screw dual wielders in general, but I read you as trying to say that axe BST couldnt parse axe WAR, which I know very very well not to be true. Also Man/Ridll WAR vs Man/Temp. BST is not a fair comparison, as BST can use Ridill also (at least in merits, which is what we are talking about).

Addionally, the introduction of Snarl, which you conveniently forgot about in an earlier post, makes BST even less of an MP sink than it already was, unlike say... a WAR/SAM.

BST needs some adjustment, but really 1h weapons need fixed in general. The job could use some spike damage capability as well, probably most easily added through changes to the 2 hour.

I'm not naive, a well geared and merited 2h WAR will certainly parse an equally equipped and merited BST due to the 2h update. What they will NOT do is blow them out of the water, and many well geared PUP, BST, etc. do not get invited to pickup groups on general principle while gimp ass players with gimp ass equipment on "better" jobs do. This is dumb.


Anyhow, if we're going to continue this discussion it should be in PM or another thread.

BST have horrible sword skill so Temp axe will beat Ridill easily, unless you like 2-3 misses a round.

Then there are tons of JAs that boost Warrior's damage like Double Attack, Berserk, Warcry, and Aggressor. There are two others too, that would greatly help Warrior.

As someone who has played a good bit of different MMOs, I understand that classes need to fall in to one of at least three different roles: Tank, Healer, Damage Dealer.

The problem is that Beastmaster falls in to Damage dealer and doesn't really shine on parses. They do fine, but the masses are dead set in having the "best of the best" at all times so they get ignored. Sadly, this happens to almost every pet based class in almost all MMOs.

I'm not fighting for BST to be #1 all time damage dealer. We all can agree that they have some acceptable damage. The problem comes in that it's not as acceptable as other classes and they get overlooked. This is happening to Puppetmaster and will most likely continue to happen for a very long time. This even happened with SMN in the beginning of the game.

The only ways I can see BST even getting up there is for Scythe skill to be increased just a tad (B+) for us to merit it and get accuracy gear, give us Guillotine (Sorry DRKs) and then we can SJ WAR for DA/Berserk/WC and hopefully be more competitive with pets and dropping threat to the pet. Or a massive 1-hander overhaul that will help all classes.

And for Ahlah: Situations where BST shine? Add control. At least with a few HNM, we can easily control adds (Aspido, Tiamat quickly off the top of my head). Kiting. Just as effective, if not more, than WAR or NIN because Charm generates great enmity and binds the target. With simple gear swap macros, you'd never stop moving on screen and should almost never get hit depending on what you are fighting. Depending on the target too, can SJ WAR and double up with Provoke and Charm during the kite process. I've read about a lot of linkshells using BST to kite the Jailer of Fortitude.

Edit: To clarify, no I'm not flip-flopping here. I still believe BST can do great damage. It's just that I understand that WAR will do more. How much more is up to be debated by other people. I'm not touching that part. And I make these statement here because PUP will get the same wrap as BST and not be allowed to do XXX events because YYY job that they leveled it "better."

[Ahlah]

And for Ahlah: Situations where BST shine? Add control. At least with a few HNM, we can easily control adds (Aspido, Tiamat quickly off the top of my head). Kiting. Just as effective, if not more, than WAR or NIN because Charm generates great enmity and binds the target. With simple gear swap macros, you'd never stop moving on screen and should almost never get hit depending on what you are fighting. Depending on the target too, can SJ WAR and double up with Provoke and Charm during the kite process. I've read about a lot of linkshells using BST to kite the Jailer of Fortitude.

I highly doubt any LS still need BST for crowd control at Tiamat camp. I have done Tiamat as both BLM and BST and frankly speaking getting BLM to nuke any aggro down is way more effective. Even in Ouryu fight, a lot of LS don't even bother to bring BST to charm worm, even if they do, RDM/BST or WHM/BST have more use than BST main.

Why do you want to use a BST kiter in Kirin fight? PLD can do the job 10 times better and more likely to survive Kirin's magical TP move and aga. Not to mention Kirin can now be meleeburned and kiters are no longer needed.

Jailer of Fortitude can be soloed by various jobs. Again if you need a kiter, use PLD not BST.

[Okan]

I never said they need BST at Tiamat. I just said that they excel at crowd control. They can take a corse on one-verus-one. Yes, a BLM would do it much faster, but they'd need extra healing and a tank. I've done Tiamat with no BST there and we won. Doesn't mean that we would have lost if we had one there.

You can kite more than Kirin, but from what I remember, if you get hit with -aga, you fail as a kiter. They took like 20 minutes to cast and then there was his AM that also took forever to cast.

So again, you asked what a BST can excel at. I gave two things that they actually can do just as equally well at as other people. Doesn't mean they are the end-all-be-all to it, but just something that the class can do equally well as others. Yes. They can kite equal to that of a PLD. Just you'd buy an extra piece or two of enmity gear.