Man crazy enough to kill girlfriend and child, rip out hearts, rip out own eyes...

[Rhinox]

he's prob perfectly sane. this is just taking the peanut butter in the ass trick one step further

also tyche and i are not the same person kuya

wat?

You can't be sane and rip out your fucking eyes. In any other state he would be locked up in an asylum but in assbackward texas where gun totting rednecks can get away with murder on a technicality mental patients are allowed to be killed.

If he isn't out of appeals this can get to the supreme court.

[Rhinox]

No, you're assuming a lot. I'm saying that despite being crazy (which he obviously is), he is also obviously capable of rationalizing a situation. He's had a history of mental health problems, has he not had a single rational thought process since the mental issues began, only after the murders did he start rationalizing situations? If he's always been capable of rationalizing, the first time he rationalized that he needed help was AFTER he killed his wife and kids? Who's to blame if they seek help or not if they can reason on their own that help is needed (and he did after the murders) and they don't seek it. It's their problem. Let him die.

I thought death penalty for the mentally handicap was considered cruel and unusual punishment?

[Elvis]

I apologize in advance for this.

It had to be done.

[Kuya]

No, you're assuming a lot. I'm saying that despite being crazy (which he obviously is), he is also obviously capable of rationalizing a situation. He's had a history of mental health problems, has he not had a single rational thought process since the mental issues began, only after the murders did he start rationalizing situations? If he's always been capable of rationalizing, the first time he rationalized that he needed help was AFTER he killed his wife and kids? Who's to blame if they seek help or not if they can reason on their own that help is needed (and he did after the murders) and they don't seek it. It's their problem. Let him die.

That's not the way mental health problems work, of which, i'm not sure which one he has. People aren't "crazy" 24/7, it's an on and off thing. And as most people within the mental health profession will tell you, there isn't a very reliable way to spot people with problems and send them on their way to solving it until an incident has already occurred. Some people realize they have problems and get help immediately, others are brought in by family members or friends, and others are not treated until after an incident has occurred. In essence, you can't blame anyone for it. Besides that, there are very clear distinctions made between the crimes someone within reason commits, and the crimes someone without reason commits; these things have been decided as far as the Enlightment and reemergence of the body of laws is concerned. If a person is not within reason when he commits a crime and it can be proven that the person has a history of loosing this reason, then he cannot be treated the same as someone who commits a crime within reason. Clearly this man falls into the former.

Somewhat unrelated, but Tyche, was your favorite author Machiavelli during political theory?

Let him die

You mean kill him, not let him die.

also tyche and i are not the same person kuya

I'm aware of that.

[Tyche]

I thought death penalty for the mentally handicap was considered cruel and unusual punishment?

It is, but I began this discussion with saying that it was the reason that *I* had an issue. I'm not the only one who disagrees with legislation handed down =/

[Tyche]

That's not the way mental health problems work, of which, i'm not sure which one he has. People aren't "crazy" 24/7, it's an on and off thing. And as most people within the mental health profession will tell you, there isn't a very reliable way to spot people with problems and send them on their way to solving it until an incident has already occurred. Some people realize they have problems and get help immediately, others are brought in by family members or friends, and others are not treated until after an incident has occurred. In essence, you can't blame anyone for it. Besides that, there are very clear distinctions made between the crimes someone within reason commits, and the crimes someone without reason commits; these things have been decided as far as the Enlightment and reemergence of the body of laws is concerned. If a person is not within reason when he commits a crime and it can be proven that the person has a history of loosing this reason, then he cannot be treated the same as someone who commits a crime within reason. Clearly this man falls into the former.

Somewhat unrelated, but Tyche, was your favorite author Machiavelli during political theory?

You mean kill him, not let him die.I'm aware of that.

I work with people with mental deficiencies every day. I have for over 3 years. Some are, I'm sure, capable of murder. They are medicated and rehabbed at our facility to be fit to be placed back into society as a working-class citizen. Obviously, the guy was out of his fucking mind when he killed the people. Legislation tells us he shouldn't receive the death penalty. I understand that. I'm not making the argument against that. I'm saying what *I* think about it. It's an ethical issue. The guy had a history of mental health issues. Not one time during the "off" (as you put it) period did he not think he needed help? He only thought he needed help after he killed his wife. I hate the insanity plea because in a lot of cases these crazy ass people knew reasonably that they were nuts and waited to say "OH WAIT, HELP ME, I'M NUTS" after they committed some atrocious crime. I have a problem with that.

[Lbelle]

I wonder what his eyeball tasted like?

[Rhinox]

grapes obviously

[Tyche]

Also, no, Xun Zi

[Kuya]

I work with people with mental deficiencies every day. I have for over 3 years. Some are, I'm sure, capable of murder. They are medicated and rehabbed at our facility to be fit to be placed back into society as a working-class citizen. Obviously, the guy was out of his fucking mind when he killed the people. Legislation tells us he shouldn't receive the death penalty. I understand that. I'm not making the argument against that. I'm saying what *I* think about it. It's an ethical issue. The guy had a history of mental health issues. Not one time during the "off" (as you put it) period did he not think he needed help? He only thought he needed help after he killed his wife. I hate the insanity plea because in a lot of cases these crazy ass people knew reasonably that they were nuts and waited to say "OH WAIT, HELP ME, I'M NUTS" after they committed some atrocious crime. I have a problem with that.

And as a person who studies psychopathology i can assure you most people do not recognize themselves with problems until an incident has occurred, whether a life threatening one or something somewhat minor such as loosing a job. There aren't always tell tale signs especially to the person experiencing these bouts. I could tell you more, but i just don't know what he had.

Also, i don't know how you know they know, but i'll take your word for it and just say that, killing your family is pretty much enough proof the guy needed to know he needed help, it's a shame he waited too late, but that's just all there is.

Also, no, Xun Zi

Haven't read of him.

edit: when you say mental health deficiencies, you mean people with mental retardation or do you mean people with an actual psychopathy such as schizophrenia? Violence coming from both of these groups is sort of inflated.

[Rhinox]

You do realize that there are millions of sociopaths walking among us that never get treated because they do not realize they're sociopathic right?

[Kiro]

Fuck how the eye tasted, the consistency must've been disgusting.

[Tyche]

The problem with that is that this is basic path of the insanity plea. Rational thought > Kill > OMG I'M NUTS. In every case, they wait til they kill to seek help, or they are off their meds and kill and get off with the insanity plea. The legislation is flawed. That's the problem I have. In this case there was obviously "tell-tale signs". They said he had a history, I'd argue (but I don't know) that if he had a known history and a wife, that she tried to help him or to get him help. I'd have a hard time believing that someone would let a loved one suffer from mental health issues without trying to get them help. Maybe this isn't the case, I don't know. I'd also argue that if he had a known history, how could he not "recognize himself with problems" while still being able to reason? He had to have been told that he had problems if it was known he had issues, unless I'm naive and they just kept it from him.

[Elvis]

Xun Zi sounds interesting. Just glanced over the wiki bio.

[Tyche]

You do realize that there are millions of sociopaths walking among us that never get treated because they do not realize they're sociopathic right?

He had a "history", if he didn't realize it, someone else obviously did or there wouldn't be a history. During one of these "historical" moments of lapse, did the police or doctors or family not get him help or tell him he needed help?

[Tyche]

edit: when you say mental health deficiencies, you mean people with mental retardation or do you mean people with an actual psychopathy such as schizophrenia? Violence coming from both of these groups is sort of inflated.

Any and all sorts of mental deficiencies. Not even all mental, we rehab physical deficiencies as well (such as MD). Now we won't accept people who aren't capable of working with other people in a controlled environment, as it would put our staff and other workers at risk. A lot are medicated to control that.

[Kuya]

The problem with that is that this is basic path of the insanity plea. Rational thought > Kill > OMG I'M NUTS. In every case, they wait til they kill to seek help, or they are off their meds and kill and get off with the insanity plea. The legislation is flawed. That's the problem I have. In this case there was obviously "tell-tale signs". They said he had a history, I'd argue (but I don't know) that if he had a known history and a wife, that she tried to help him or to get him help. I'd have a hard time believing that someone would let a loved one suffer from mental health issues without trying to get them help. Maybe this isn't the case, I don't know. I'd also argue that if he had a known history, how could he not "recognize himself with problems" while still being able to reason? He had to have been told that he had problems if it was known he had issues, unless I'm naive and they just kept it from him.

Well, the difference as you've already said is, that this man actually has a history, so not just anyone can you do what you outlined.

I understand what you're trying to say, that he was irresponsible if he knew of his condition and he let it get this far, but there is very little you can do without other people in the equation, and i don't know if it would be a good idea to punish people for not realizing that they have mental conditions and not taking according actions, as the field of psychiatry is also hazy enough.

[Tyche]

Well, the difference as you've already said is, that this man actually has a history, so not just anyone can you do what you outlined.

I understand what you're trying to say, that he was irresponsible if he knew of his condition and he let it get this far, but there is very little you can do without other people in the equation, and i don't know if it would be a good idea to punish people for not realizing that they have mental conditions and not taking according actions, as the field of psychiatry is also hazy enough.

I have no problem with that, I generalized quite a bit. I just think the legislation is really flawed. What would happen if a medicated person went off his medication intentionally and killed someone while insane (I really don't know the answer to this), can they be held liable?

[Kuya]

I have no problem with that, I generalized quite a bit. I just think the legislation is really flawed. What would happen if a medicated person went off his medication intentionally and killed someone while insane (I really don't know the answer to this), can they be held liable?

I'm not a jurist (yet), so i don't know what one could work out here and i could try and hypothesize on what said person would do and how we would find out how he did it, but i'm also not an investigator and i don't intend to be, but i take solace in the fact that the example you're presenting would be a very rare and odd case. That is, assuming one of my fears doesn't come true and from here to 2020 half of us aren't jacked up on pills for every little "mental disease" that gets "discovered".

[Tyche]

Well, the insanity plea itself is actually a very rare case.