Sam info?

[Lahan]

well thats the thing Raen Ryong I never said it sucks. if want it and can swing that gil go for it! what I have works just fine no one that I have pt with or helped have complained.

[Brill Weave]

No but you came in screaming about people being elitist when they attempted to tell you you were mistaken. It's not about being a "fanboy" or an elitist when it comes to using the Hagun. It is statistically the better weapon. Most people who play a job aren't going to settle for less than the best gear. That doesn't make them elitist at all. I have a hagun and I'm poor as shit. I scraped together enough to pick one up. Not because I'm a fanboy and I am by far away nowhere even close to an elitist. I picked it up because it was proven to be heads above every other gkt out there.

I've had conversations with people who preached the Ushi > Hagun argument. They had all borrowed a Hagun at one time or another and still claimed that the Ushi was better. After going through all the layers of the conversation almost every single one of them said they would probably use the Hagun if they had the money to get it.

Not to be an ass or to cause any issues, but I really think that you're just attempting to justify your use of an inferior weapon to yourself. I had one day where I had some particularly great luck on crits with my Ushi. I don't need to see anything else because now I KNOW it's better than everything else. Coincidentally, I also don't have enough to buy a Hagun. See what I mean?

But it's your game. Play it how you want. You're certainly not gimp for using an Ushi. Having a Hagun doesn't make you an elitist or a fanboy. It shows people who are unwillingly to accept a lesser weapon in order to become as good a DD that they can. Long story short, don't argue a point that has been statistically disproven multiple times and expect people to not resort to insults when you keep disagreeing.

[Tagus]

well thats the thing Raen Ryong I never said it sucks. if want it and can swing that gil go for it! what I have works just fine no one that I have pt with or helped have complained.

Congrats, young grasshopper. You have officially joined a merit party and not had your gear complained about. This is the first step towards total Samurai consciousness. The second step is to either recognize that Hagun > Ushi, or find a parse that proves otherwise.

[ferigor]

Lahan, please post your gear set, tp and ws. Maybe if you show us your gear, we can help you a little more, but I honestly don't feel you have any clue what you are doing. "Almost a 5 hit" does absolutely nothing. Unless the extra store tp results in 1 less swing to 100%, all that extra store tp is doing nothing. "Almost a 5 hit" means you still need 6 hits to get 100%. To get all that extra store TP, you have to be sacrificing some major slots. I'm curious to see how much acc and haste you tp in, as most store TP pieces don't have much of either.

And again, talking about numbers without a parse is a moot point. No one can prove you wrong, but more importantly you can't prove yourself right. From what little you've told us about your gear, it doesn't sound very good. I don't see you outparsing a well geared, competent sam.

[Brill Weave]

Shit's situational yo.

[yayaok]

hmm now im curious, is a 5hit build for sam even possible using resonable gkatanas?

[Raen Ryong]

I think it's possible but at a huge cost to your other significant TP gain stats.

[Lahan]

hmm now im curious, is a 5hit build for sam even possible using resonable gkatanas?

I made a run at it but just cant squeek out the rest of the store TP + needed. I can get to 18.86 TP return per (landed) swing. with some of that store tp +6 food can get 19.55. and someone else said it you start to lose a lot of other goodies going for it. I just though it would be funny to try for. see if the WS spam would be good enough. pro'ly not

[Yugl]

It's amazing how SAMs bitch about the amount of gil it takes to buy the best GK (Amano in some cases) in the game. I would gladly spend 3mil on Valk Fork instead of hammering Einherjar. It's a lot of gil, but it's a top notch weapon. Not to mention that it's a noticeable improvement unlike Triumph => Triumph+1.

[Zosi]

Edit: I forgot this is Standard, so I'll be nicer. Lahan's stubborn and seems to always think himself better than everyone he meets, regardless of whether they have better gear or job/sub.

As for Osode versus Hauby, use both. I have a different WS set for MMJ THFs and NINs, and so should you if you have the gear for it. It's silly to insist on Hauby in situations where your WS acc *is* easily capped, and it's not hard to macro it in for situations where you aren't.

As for Hagun, it's obviously a tough choice if 3m is a lot of money for you. It's an awesome great katana and I don't regret buying mine at all, and it's noticeably better (both on parses and just eyeballing it) than the Onimaru I was using previously. From the few parses I have from when I was freshly 75, I added roughly 100 to my WS average between Onimaru/meritless to Hagun/8 GKT merits. Obviously the merits helped a bit (via ~12 attack), but I don't think I'm wrong in saying that the majority of that is the Hagun.

[Lahan]

yeaa once again when you have a different opinion than someone else they call you dumb and worng.

[Zilong]

You have invalid argument to supports your claim, that at least make you wrong because it's not like the hagun was added last update, it's been out for years, and countless fucking test has been done regarding it, I can't fucking help it if you don't have a parser, or decent gears for that matter.

Your manner of presentation is borderline retarded, so I guess calling it dumb would be a compliment.

Feel free to prove me wrong, but all you've been bringing so far is baseless anecdote about how you can attach ushikirimaru on your penis and outparse everyone, and that everyone that have hagun is a fucking fanboy.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I wouldn't have really payed any mind to this had someone not pulled out, "Why don't you go level the job in question before making job-specific assertions?"

Unfortunately, someone did.

Its been tested on many occasions, and it is now understood that there is a bonus of ~50 WSACC attached to every single-hit weapon skill in the game. This alone makes Kirin's Osode superior to Haubergeon +1 in all situations, granted you're not using Kaiten, which may or may not be further augmented by using something along the lines of a Bernie +1 due to the positive reaction to high attack and lack of native pDIF bonus.

Ignoring the presence of accuracy that you really should have already known about, from a purely 'which will do more damage' standpoint:

Test 1:

Test mob: Greater Colibri Lvl 82

Stats(taken from Wiki): Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67

Subject 1 (with Haubergeon +1): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 125 STR and 445 att (unbuffed, no food) using gorget so add +0.1 fTP
Subject 2 (with Kirin Osode): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 129 STR and 436 att (unbuffed, no food) using gorget so add +0.1 fTP

Subject 1:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 58
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 125 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 15.5
WSC = (125 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 77.8
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (445/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 1.01
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 0 ≤ cRatio < 1.25 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 0.712
Maximum pDIF = 1.212
WD = (75 + 15.5 + 77.8 ) x 1.975 = 332.39

Minimum damage possible = 332.39 x 0.712 = 236
Maximum damage possible = 332.39 x 1.212 = 402

Subject 2:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 62
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 129 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 16.5
WSC = (129 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 80.3
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (436/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 0.983
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 0 ≤ cRatio < 1.25 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 0.679
Maximum pDIF = 1.179
WD = (75 + 16.5 + 80.3) x 1.975 = 339.30

Minimum damage possible = 339.30 x 0.679 = 230
Maximum damage possible = 339.30 x 1.179 = 400

Test 1 conclusion is that unbuffed, Haubergeon +1 is better.

Test 2:

Part 1: No Berserk (40% of the time)

Test mob: Greater Colibri Lvl 82

Stats(taken from Wiki): Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67

Subject 1 (with Haubergeon +1): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 130 STR and 574.75 att using gorget so add +0.1 fTP.
Using Meat Mithkabob and has Minuet IV(Fully merited).

Subject 2 (with Kirion Osode): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 134 STR and 565.75 att using gorget so add +0.1 fTP
Using Meat Mithkabob and has Minuet IV(Fully merited).

Subject 1:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 63
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 130 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 16.75
WSC = (130 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 80.9
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (574.75/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 1.407
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 1.25 ≤ cRatio ≤ 1.5 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 1.407
Maximum pDIF = 1.688
WD = (75 + 16.75 + 80.9) x 1.975 = 340.98

Minimum damage possible = 340.98 x 1.407 = 479
Maximum damage possible = 340.98 x 1.688 = 575

Subject 2:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 67
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 134 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 17.75
WSC = (134 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 83.4
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (565.75/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 1.38
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 1.25 ≤ cRatio ≤ 1.5 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 1.380
Maximum pDIF = 1.656
WD = (75 + 17.75 + 83.4) x 1.975 = 347

Minimum damage possible = 347.89 x 1.380 = 480
Maximum damage possible = 347.89 x 1.656 = 576

Test 2 Part 1 conclusion is that while using typical buffs at Colibri camp, Osode has 1 more min and 1 more max possible.
Seeing that you only have 2.083 % chances of doing 1 more damage than Haubergeon +1, I think that the +9 acc of Haubergeon +1 still makes it win here.


Part 2: Berserk (60% of the time)

Test mob: Greater Colibri Lvl 82

Stats(taken from Wiki): Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67

Subject 1 (with Haubergeon +1): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 130 STR and 718.75 att using gorget so add +0.1 fTP.
Using Meat Mithkabob and has Minuet IV(Fully merited).

Subject 2 (with Kirion Osode): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 134 STR and 707.18 att using gorget so add +0.1 fTP
Using Meat Mithkabob and has Minuet IV(Fully merited).

Subject 1:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 63
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 130 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 16.75
WSC = (130 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 80.9
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (718.75/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 1.848
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 1.5 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 1.417
Maximum pDIF = 2.217
WD = (75 + 16.75 + 80.9) x 1.975 = 340.98

Minimum damage possible = 340.98 x 1.417 = 483
Maximum damage possible = 340.98 x 2.217 = 738

Subject 2:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 67
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 134 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 17.75
WSC = (134 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 83.4
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (707.18/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 1.812
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 1.5 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 1.374
Maximum pDIF = 2.174
WD = (75 + 17.75 + 83.4) x 1.975 = 347

Minimum damage possible = 347.89 x 1.374 = 478
Maximum damage possible = 347.89 x 2.174 = 756

Test 2 Part 2 conclusion is that while using typical buffs + Berserk at Colibri camp, Osode has 2 minimum less and 18 more maximum damage possible. So it means that you have 0.71% to attain that 2 minimum less and 7.03% to do between 1-18 damage more than the Haubergeon +1. Weither or not you think that low of a chance is worth it is up to you but in my opinion, the +9 acc from the Haubergeon +1 is better than a 7.03% chance to do low single/double digits damage from the Osode. And that's only during Berserk and seeing the 1st part of test 2, you'd need to have a Berserk WS macro and a non-berserk ws macro.

Going to do Test 3 which will include best possible buffs, mostly showing with capped pDIF and post it shortly.

It would behoove you to ignore the part in the end regarding Haubergeon +1 being the overall superior choice due to the accuracy, as the hidden WSACC wasn't widely known at this point.

Kimkytaru, stop referencing things that you clearly didn't actually read.

[Drex]

yeaa once again when you have a different opinion than someone else they call you dumb and worng.

No, your claim that 7 base damage and +2 str make you hit for 100 more damage than a hagun on swings is dumb and wrong. Your claim that ushikirimaru outparses hagun when you don't even use a parser is dumb and wrong.

I'm not a fanboy of hagun, I'm a fanboy of facts. You aren't providing any. If you want to say Hagun is not worth 3mil to you, go for it. Many people have, and that's an opinion, so it's up to you. But claiming ushiki is better than hagun in merit parties (or any situation) is not an opinion, it's an attempt at a fact, and it is dumb and wrong.

[Sephiroth_Owa 13]

k from what I'm getting is Hagun really shines when you have the gear and merits to back it up, not just any Sam can pick it up and expect to do uber dmg and go "Omgwtf this great!"
Seems like Soboro to Hagun but is there any GKs in the middle of those two?

And I'll be honset I didn't understand the STP gear part but I get now. It's all about finding a middle ground with haste and STP, more DoT more dmg and less swings for 100% tp.

And again thanks all the tips, I know pretty much what I want to aim for with Sam.

Soboro for the solo/duo
Save up for Hagun for when my Sam hits 75 and gets more finely turned (mertis/gear).
Find time for swift....(Would love it for my War)
And also get polearm skilled up. (This when I hate having two chars >.> read sig lol....Sam is going to the char without Drg 75.)
As for the rest of the end game gear it will have to wait till I do have the time to play to try to get it.
But thanks again you all have given a lot of ideas for Sam.
But is there another choice for earring that isn't Sam one from AAx5?
I picked Suppa for my War.

[Zilong]

I used ethereal/Brutal, though Minuet/Brutal would also be good

[Lahan]

drex that was to zosi.

[Tagus]

It's amazing how SAMs bitch about the amount of gil it takes to buy the best GK (Amano in some cases) in the game. I would gladly spend 3mil on Valk Fork instead of hammering Einherjar. It's a lot of gil, but it's a top notch weapon. Not to mention that it's a noticeable improvement unlike Triumph => Triumph+1.

It's not really that amazing when you think about the low cost of gear for a noob Samurai up to that point. An up and coming Samurai can potentially hit 75 for less than a million gil... all you really need to avoid criticism is a NQ Hauby, some functional str and acc rings, AF pants, maybe camp Mee Deggi if you really care, etc. Then when you hit 75 and start to consider getting good gear, the Hagun's rising price is a limiting factor in the ability to get your pimp on, and peeps either settle for an Ushi or Oni, start saving for a Hagun, or start crying or making excuses.

[PeaceNLove]

Onimaru, while being the second best gkt you can buy, is far inferior to Hagun. Maths incoming:

I'm going to use my personal stats to calculate

WS: Str: 135, Attack 546 (assuming bard and mithkabobs)
Melee: Str 103, Attack 533
Onimaru's weaponrank is 8, since the nonlatent number is used for perdu/maneater type weapons.

Onimaru: (83 + 16 + 83) *1.6625 * 1.19 * 2.2 (assuming this is cap cRatio until we know for sure) = 792.1 average gekko

Hagun: (75 + 16 + 83) *1.975 * 1.19 *2.2 (pDIF is capped with either gkt) = 899.7 average gekko, representing a 13.5% increase in damage.

For melee hits:

Onimaru: (83 +10 ) * 1.361 *1.025(2.5% increase to hitrate)= 129.7

Hagun: (75 +10) * 1.315 = 111.8, making Onimaru a 16% increase to melee DPS.

For a full cycle of 5 hits and a WS, we have:

Onimaru: 1440.6 damage
Hagun: 1458.7 damage

Hagun wins by 1.25%

You might be thinking that 1.25% is really a small increase, however this doesn't account for things like meditate, tp'ing to 200 for sekkanoki, or skillchain damage, all of which favor Hagun. In reality, I would guess Hagun is actually around a 6% increase in overall damage/time.

The question now is whether 6% is worth almost 3 mil. The answer is: absolutely. This is one of the most cost effective upgrades you can buy for samurai. Consider that people pay a mil to go from a +4 to a +5 str ring, which is about a .5% increase in overall damage. Hagun gives you 12x the effect for only 3x the price. There is also not a single piece of gear, save perhaps byakko haidate, that will give you this much of a boost.

This math is irrelevant as an Onimaru user should be using Rana instead of Gekko, which is quite a spectacular WS with attack to back it up. In merits, Onimaru/Rana can easily outdo Hagun/Gekko. Of course against anything harder, that's a different story.

Leveling SAM myself currently and I have a question for Soboro users: what grip should I be using? Planning on using it until 6-hit/Hagun.

[blev]

hmm now im curious, is a 5hit build for sam even possible using resonable gkatanas?

lots of hachiman.......would need hands, feet, legs, and.....

DOMARUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU