Don't ask, don't tell: no more.

[Correction]

You're still allowed to be gay and in the military NOW, so how is that even an arguement? Just because you can't proclaim your sexuality to a majority of people who could really give 2 shits deep down? Get over yourself. Not a comparison.

You're not allowed to be gay and in the military. You can be specifically removed just for being gay.

What the lifting of the policy does is remove this specific bullshit reason the military uses to fire people. It won't really change the number of gays currently serving. The 'distraction' argument is an empty one.

And the roots of racism and homophobia are the same; fear.

[thatwasnifty]

You're still allowed to be gay and in the military NOW, so how is that even an arguement? Just because you can't proclaim your sexuality to a majority of people who could really give 2 shits deep down? Get over yourself. Not a comparison.

A superficial comparison between homophobia and racism is valid. They're both about hating and hurting people who are different and don't fit into one's mold of what is right and acceptable, even though the Otherness is irrelevant to their own competency and humanity. Homophobia and racism manifest in society differently and have their own histories, I'm not arguing otherwise. But ultimately, they're both just violent expressions of "You're not like me so I don't like you and I'm going to legally deprive you of your power."

Anyway. you're completely missing the point. Repealing DADT isn't about throwing a pride parade on base or blasting Cher while you're on latrine duty. It's about being able to extend your benefits to your family and not having to keep secrets. It's hypocritical that an institution designed to "promote freedom" denies its people the freedom guaranteed by their own constitution.

[Vuitton]

LGBT rights in Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

They seem to be doing alright with the gays. Ask some Palestinians whether or not the gay soldiers are distracting the straight ones. Israel marches on with its powerful military despite what social conservatives in America would like to believe.

Homosexuals have been allowed to serve since 1993, and I have a feeling that if a bunch of Jews in the Middle East can get over it, so can America. Big fucking deal.

Despite what a few say, being gay is not a distraction unless you're doing something that would be inappropriate for any soldier.

However, a steadily increasing number of gay recruits do full military service, often in combat units.The Ma'ariv newspaper reported that one of the largest units in the Israeli army, an intelligence processing unit, is well known for the large number of uncloseted LGBT soldiers serving in it.

Israel isn't the only military with the mysterious phenomenon of gays. England's military allows them as well, and as everyone says, it wasn't a big deal for anyone.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/wo...21britain.html

Far from causing problems, he said, he found that coming out to his troops actually increased the unit’s strength and cohesion. He had felt uneasy keeping the secret “that their boss was a poof ((((British slang equivalent of faggot))),” as he put it, from people he worked with so closely.

Since the British military began allowing homosexuals to serve in the armed forces in 2000, none of its fears — about harassment, discord, blackmail, bullying or an erosion of unit cohesion or military effectiveness — have come to pass, according to the Ministry of Defense, current and former members of the services and academics specializing in the military. The biggest news about the policy, they say, is that there is no news. It has for the most part become a nonissue.

So you know, despite what the few say about theoretical distractions and blah blah blah. I tend to take examples from the field more seriously, and it looks like real world examples currently taking place are proving social conservatives wrong.

[Maxxthepenguin]

lol America doesn't take its cues from the rest of the world.

[bombard]

Israel is a beacon of social justices, we should mimic their culture as our own. How long have they been at war over religious intolerance? Homosexuality is the least of their concerns, when you can have buildings bombed at any given minute. Homosexuality should be and is Israel's last concern.

Don't ask Don't tell IS BULLSHIT, I agree. It was a cop-out from a man who couldn't even keep his own vows to another individual. We all know 95% who's gay or straight in the military ANYWAY -- and it doesn't seem to affect anything. Don't ask don't tell i believe was meant as an avenue for our military to 'evolve' into accepting gays as equals, which has been happening imo. Forcing this issue is going to cause resentment, and why force something that's already evolving?

I'm not arguing against same sex unions/relationships morally, I just prefer it to be done in a way that's not forced when it doesn't need to be. You complain about being treated unfairly, but at the same time want to force others to believe what you believe? What exactly is unfair about don't ask don't tell? You still get to wear the same uniform and perform the same tasks as everyone else. You aren't withheld any rights that you would have on the outside world. Don't ask Don't tell has been a success overall imo, and I'm happy for it. Our country is behind the times when it comes to equal legal rights of homosexuals, but only few legal rights are left to remain a barrier. When the country is up to speed on legal rights, the military won't be far behind (might even be first).

Very few actually care (from my experiences) who is gay and who isn't in the military. The newest mandates are always the most resented in the military, no matter what it is.

Edit: Forgot to add, for the love of God, stop comparing sexual preference to race. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Stop it. Not a valid comparison. Sexual orientation =/= the color of your skin. While both are born from ignorance, that is the only comparison they share. Stop it please.

[Day]

Don't ask Don't tell IS BULLSHIT, I agree. It was a cop-out from a man who couldn't even keep his own vows to another individual. We all know 95% who's gay or straight in the military ANYWAY -- and it doesn't seem to affect anything.

Don't ask Don't tell has been a success overall imo, and I'm happy for it.

Wait wat?

[Charismatic]

A+ trolling, would read again.

[archibaldcrane]

Sexual orientation =/= the color of your skin. While both are born from ignorance, that is the only comparison they share. Stop it please.

Well, they're also both uncontrollable birth conditions that are or have been discriminated against both in social norms but also in laws, and they have shared many of the same fights for the same equal rights.

There's actually a ton of similarities and most comparisons made are apt. The biggest difference between them is that legal battles about racial discrimination are basically over.

[Skjie]

@Neosutra, you appear to be talking as if you have never had a gay serving with you before. That stopping DA, DT would mean you would suddenly be serving with gays. The big difference is gay soldiers would finally be able to have their partners waiting for them with all the other spouses when they go on leave. Having gay friends in the US Military, they talk all the time about how much it sucks they can't share stories, or talk about their loved ones without worrying about being fired.

I think the big thing is that obviously America just isn't mature enough to handle gays in the military. A country where gay marriage is still a hot button issue obviously can't be expected to behave maturely about it. Though, I do have to wonder what all the people in California who voted for Prop. 8 and Obama are thinking right now.

[Kohan]

Though, I do have to wonder what all the people in California who voted for Prop. 8 and Obama are thinking right now.

You've actually read explanations as to why so many people voted to ban gay marriage, didn't you? They're not exactly the brightest bulbs in the box, considering how easily they were swayed -- I doubt they're doing much "thinking" at all.

Really, people can say that their minds were changed by a commercial, and think that sounds perfectly respectable? That they would be willing to ban something strictly based on something that played for mere seconds? No, not a lot of thinking going on in those brains.

[Skjie]

L'État n'a pas d'affaires dans les chambres à coucher de la nation.
(Paraphrased: The State has no place in the bedrooms of the people)
- Pierre Elliott Trudeau December 22, 1967


Way to be 42 years behind Canada, America.

[Correction]

Really, people can say that their minds were changed by a commercial, and think that sounds perfectly respectable? That they would be willing to ban something strictly based on something that played for mere seconds? No, not a lot of thinking going on in those brains.

But on the plus side, their children will never learn about gay marriage.

Oh, shit....wait.

[Silenka]

The overall homophobia instilled in Americans obviously stemmed at least partly from Christianity, but at the rate people are becoming atheists or converting to other religions that are possibly more tolerant of same-sex relations I find it a bit surprising that there is still so much dissonance.

Honestly I think the general acceptance of homosexuals not only in the military but also across the U.S. is only going to arrive when the current generation is flushed out and the new generation comes to power. Degrees of tolerance among people are instilled over a lifetime, unfortunately, and little can be done to change them in older people. My incredibly racist grandparents are proof of this, I can't stand a word that comes out of their mouths when it comes to people who aren't pasty white.

[HAcoreRD]

does this mean Obama approves of anal sex in a trench?

[Neosutra]

L'État n'a pas d'affaires dans les chambres à coucher de la nation.
(Paraphrased: The State has no place in the bedrooms of the people)
- Pierre Elliott Trudeau December 22, 1967


Way to be 42 years behind Canada, America.

While I agree with this whole heartedly for civilian living, you cannot apply civilian social standards to military protocols. You dont have the same rights when you volunteer, you forfeit them. You fall under UCMJ and a system of rules designed around warfare, not civilization.

As I said before, you are essentially supposed to be asexual when you deploy, and the entire basis of the army is preparing/training/acting on deployments/missions. DADT works fine in the field, but does have problems back home. However with a military that is based around training for the coming mission/field/deployment, it becomes hard to seperate that home life and sexual identity. It isnt pleasant to say it, but your job in the army isnt to have relationships, it's to do your duty so you and your brothers(or sisters) come home alive.

[Vuitton]

I find it hilarious people are still harping about homos distracting from mission, the need to keep focus, asexuality??? (lmao), ect ect....

First of all, why is everyone ignoring the fact that Britain's military has already proven that having gay soldiers has had ZERO impact to team integrity, mission distractions, ect? (In fact, it has proven to have done the opposite.) Don't tell me because "American soldiers are different." They're not.

Second, the hetero soliders are having tons of sex (even when deployed!), so this whole "asexuality" bullshit is well... bullshit. Yeah, it is true that your duty in the military is not stick your dick in things, but that doesn't really stop it from happening. The heteros aren't "not having sex", and neither are closeted gays "not having sex". They're all having sex! They should all be punished equally when caught having it when they should be doing other things.

Stop hiding your homophobia behind illogical arguments that have been proven incorrect on the field.

[Kuya]

Okay, Neosutra is not homophobic because he's not religious, okay?

[Neosutra]

I find it hilarious people are still harping about homos distracting from mission, the need to keep focus, asexuality??? (lmao), ect ect....

First of all, why is everyone ignoring the fact that Britain's military has already proven that having gay soldiers has had ZERO impact to team integrity, mission distractions, ect? (In fact, it has proven to have done the opposite.) Don't tell me because "American soldiers are different." They're not.

Second, the hetero soliders are having tons of sex (even when deployed!), so this whole "asexuality" bullshit is well... bullshit. Yeah, it is true that your duty in the military is not stick your dick in things, but that doesn't really stop it from happening. The heteros aren't "not having sex", and neither are closeted gays "not having sex". They're all having sex! They should all be punished equally when caught having it when they should be doing other things.

Stop hiding your homophobia behind illogical arguments that have been proven incorrect on the field.

Britian is in about 5% of the conflicts america is currently in. Secondly, you cant state that people violating the rules is a means to state the rules are incorrect. Your sexual preference should have no part in the military and rules/protocols are in place to ensure that. The fact that they are broken doesnt make it right, and DOES lead to degradation of unit moral, distraction from the unit mission, and animosity between people within the unit.

I havent said anything derogatory to gays in this thread, not everyone for DADT is a homophob.

[archibaldcrane]

Britian is in about 5% of the conflicts america is currently in. Secondly, you cant state that people violating the rules is a means to state the rules are incorrect. Your sexual preference should have no part in the military and rules/protocols are in place to ensure that. The fact that they are broken doesnt make it right, and DOES lead to degradation of unit moral, distraction from the unit mission, and animosity between people within the unit.

I havent said anything derogatory to gays in this thread, not everyone for DADT is a homophob.

Neo, you sound like you're advocating DADT for sexual orientation in general. I.E. if a soldier's sexual orientation, gay or straight, is made known then they're out.

You don't sound like you are arguing that gays are a distraction, more that sex is a distraction, and that if sex gets in the way of the mission then it should be dealt with. Do you feel that DADT is appropriate to apply to gays only, or are you advocating a more all-encompassing application?

[Neosutra]

Gays only simply due to my inability to seperate gay/straight males/females the same way I seperate male/females in combat/housing/facility usage.

I wouldnt stick one of my female soldiers in the male barracks and have her shower with the guys, and I should expect to treat someone of the same sexual identity the same way.