Don't ask, don't tell: no more.

[Charismatic]

I wonder how the Greeks and Romans dealt with this terribly difficult situation.

I dunno, but I notice that both empires failed.
Probably due to gays.

[Neosutra]

It's obvious that you understand this much better than I (and no, that wasn't sarcasm) as I have never been in the military and that you have experience actually leading. So, my question to you is, what would be the optimum solution then? Would you prefer barring any gays and women from the battlefield because it might cause a problem and because it makes your job harder? Even if this means taking away a job from someone who has a true passion for it and is very good at it?

Absolutely not, I respect anyone that works/fights for their country/neighbors. I just like the current policy. Its not our business what your sexuality is. As far as I am concerned, the males/females in my unit are unisex and shouldnt be thinking about that in combat. Dont broadcast it, we wont ask it, we wont care. I understand this only really works in a combat environment where sex isnt "suppossed" to happen, and forcing someone to remain "hidden" whent they get back home is wrong, but my only concern is that they do infact get back home.

Im not saying its right, but this is war, there is very little right about it. It gets more complex when you start addressing living arrangements that have 10-20 males sleeping in the same area and showering together. I dont let my males/females sleep/shower together for the problems it would cause, what am I then supposed to do with the male/gay males then? Should I seperate them the same way I seperate the sexes to avoid the fucking/drama/homophobia? I do feel like shit that a gay soldier cant bring their "spouse" to a unit the same way a straight one can, and I wish that were different, but as I said before: Realistically, distractions kill, and I would rather them feel oppressed and be alive than feel open and be dead.

[Ophannus]

Right because killing someone is a great way to stop their ideals from being spread.

Lenin's death stopped Communism right?
Martin Luther King/Malcolm X's death stopped the Civil Rights movement right?

[Charismatic]

Right because killing someone is a great way to stop their ideals from being spread.

Lenin's death stopped Communism right?
Martin Luther King/Malcolm X's death stopped the Civil Rights movement right?

That has nothing to do with the issue at hand, shut up.
Are you European or something? goddamn

[Neosutra]

@ OPhannus : You missed my point. I didnt say they would be killed by their fellow soldiers, I said that deaths happen in combat situations when soldiers loose their focus. I dont care what it is distracting my troops (boobs, dicks, BG), it is endangering their lives and hampers my ability to get the mission done successfully and bring them home alive.

[Kuya]

Absolutely not, I respect anyone that works/fights for their country/neighbors. I just like the current policy. Its not our business what your sexuality is. As far as I am concerned, the males/females in my unit are unisex and shouldnt be thinking about that in combat. Dont broadcast it, we wont ask it, we wont care. I understand this only really works in a combat environment where sex isnt "suppossed" to happen, and forcing someone to remain "hidden" whent they get back home is wrong, but my only concern is that they do infact get back home.

Im not saying its right, but this is war, there is very little right about it. It gets more complex when you start addressing living arrangements that have 10-20 males sleeping in the same area and showering together. I dont let my males/females sleep/shower together for the problems it would cause, what am I then supposed to do with the male/gay males then? Should I seperate them the same way I seperate the sexes to avoid the fucking/drama/homophobia? I do feel like shit that a gay soldier cant bring their "spouse" to a unit the same way a straight one can, and I wish that were different, but as I said before: Realistically, distractions kill, and I would rather them feel oppressed and be alive than feel open and be dead.

I don't know whether you're referring to Don't Ask Don't Tell or saying that gays should be kept out of the military for the reasons you said, if the latter, then i'm all for it!

[pohibaba]

I gotta say that that was one of the best arguments for DA,DT that I've heard. I still disagree with you, and I'm still glad that it's gone, but you nearly made me change my mind.

[Neosutra]

@ Kuya: Refering to Dont Ask Dont Tell (which I agree with partially). As for gays in the military, I have no problem with it. However you either need to treat them like a member of the opposite sex (and thus dont house them with their sexual counterparts), or maintain a policy of non admittal. If I had a better solution I would probably go to congress with it. I dont know of a good answer that would allow gays to be treated fairly and my troops to maintain as little distraction as possible. All I know is that in my unit (which is now coed, but my last unit was all male), I spend alot of my time dealing with these issues during deployments. It becomes less of an issue over time if the leadership is on the ball, but it really kills me to have to remove one of my best platoon sergeants and leaders from a position i needed him in, simply because he couldnt keep his dick in his pants.

Its a shitty situation, but like I said, Im the one that has to tell their children/family when they die, and I will do anything to make sure that doesnt happen.

[TribalCelestial]

Lying helps.

[Hellfury]

The Greek considered homosexuality a virtue if memory serves, it was more or less expected, the early roman empire considered it as a big no-no, they had some early law who regulated sexulity in general, but I'll be damned if I can remember the details. Later on in the life of the empire the law fell out of practice.

From what I understand, some historians have blamed homosexuality for the falls of the Greek, and later the Roman Empire.

I still stand by my point that empirical data needs to be (at least attempted) to be gathered, and if the data supports that it's a very real problem, then damned be co-ed units, and have all women, all men, or all gay, or whatever units. Politics will unfortunately probably get in the way no matter the outcome.

[Charismatic]

The Greek considered homosexuality a virtue if memory serves, it was more or less expected, the early roman empire considered it as a big no-no, they had some early law who regulated sexulity in general, but I'll be damned if I can remember the details. Later on in the life of the empire the law fell out of practice.

From what I understand, some historians have blamed homosexuality for the falls of the Greek, and later the Roman Empire.

I still stand by my point that empirical data needs to be (at least attempted) to be gathered, and if the data supports that it's a very real problem, then damned be co-ed units, and have all women, all men, or all gay, or whatever units. Politics will unfortunately probably get in the way no matter the outcome.

Doesn't take a historian or any research to figure out that homosexuals are good-for-nothings.

[TribalCelestial]

I've never had any issue with my being gay in the army, maybe because it just doesn't come up in conversation. Nobody really talks about it, nor do they care. I focus on what I'm there to do. Same goes with the shower, I don't care what other people look like because I'm there to shower...and that's it. I can't speak for other people though. I do understand where most of the concern is coming from though. It's not really enough to hope people think responsibly, look at drunk driving, etc etc.

[Zhais]

edit: Post directed mostly at Neo.

Logistical question for ya: How /would/ you go about housing them differently?

Housing them with the opposite sex could cause problems (opposite sex distracted, curious, maybe bisexual?)

Housing them with the same gender but same sexuality causes same problems as anything else.


I do agree with you tho in the sense that sexuality and discussions of such has no place when dealing with matters abroad for soldiers, and wartime and such. Don't Ask, Don't Tell, when properly managed just plain takes a factor out of the equation of successful army management.

If nobody cared about other sexualities, would be perfectly fine to be open. The moment someone does care, it causes problems unfortunately. Either gotta have everyone be open to the idea 100% or just plain not disclose anything either way.

[Kuya]

Housing gays together still doesn't seem like a good idea unless you like stopping them from deep throating eachother 24/7.

[Charismatic]

Logistical question for ya: How /would/ you go about housing them differently?
Housing them with the opposite sex could cause problems (opposite sex distracted, curious, maybe bisexual?)
Housing them with the same gender but same sexuality causes same problems as anything else.


I do agree with you tho in the sense that sexuality and discussions of such has no place when dealing with matters abroad for soldiers, and wartime and such. Don't Ask, Don't Tell, when properly managed just plain takes a factor out of the equation of successful army management.

If nobody cared about other sexualities, would be perfectly fine to be open. The moment someone does care, it causes problems unfortunately. Either gotta have everyone be open to the idea 100% or just plain not disclose anything either way.

All of this is true, I think this is why some argue that "Don't ask, don't tell" is the best policy.

[Correction]

I just like the current policy. Its not our business what your sexuality is. As far as I am concerned, the males/females in my unit are unisex and shouldnt be thinking about that in combat. Dont broadcast it, we wont ask it, we wont care.

In reality this is not how the policy worked out. Maybe if the number of dishonorable discharges for being gay were zero over the last 15 years it'd be different but someone is asking and someone is being compelled to tell. I have a hard time believing the level of 'distracting' homophobic paranoia will be any higher or lower simply because the Army is asked to stop this ridiculous charade of acceptance.

[Charismatic]

How do you know someone is asking? How do you know they aren't playing grabass and being found out?
How do you know they aren't coming out, etc?

[Vuitton]

Its about damn time. The military is so full of gay guys its unbelievable. My ex is a Major (OF-5) for the Army's medical sector/area/department/(whatever its called). I heard all sorts of hot stories from him regarding gay sex between the soldiers who were "straight".

I was also sleeping with some enlisted guys in the Army as well. One was a staff Sergeant (E-5) and another one was one of the staff seargants soldiers who was married to some Yugoslovian chick (he was really hot.) They both told me about a lot of gay sex going on in Baghdad between the soldiers as well (they took part.)

Gay sex is like the wind blowing outdoors. It fucking happens. Don't pretend that because you're not talking about it that your buddies in the military aren't sucking each other off behind your back.

Doesn't Isreal and England's military allow gay men/woman to serve? You don't hear about anything apocolyptic happening because of that do you?

I think the whole thing is a nonissue.

(I lived in a city near an army base which is why I was ho'ing it down with a bunch of army guys.)

Edit:

I slept with a few enlisted Navy guys as well. I forgot about them. I also lived near a large naval base that is home to a bunch of submarines. They were both soldiers that worked aboard the submarines. They were both nuclear technicians. (Who knew they trained enlisted for that? I didn't.)

Now that I've typed out my military shenanigans... I realize that I am more patriotic than I thought.

[Neosutra]

@Zhais: As Charismatic said, that is why I believe DADT is the best policy "currently".

@ Correction: About half of the people discharged via DADT do so on their on accord (probably more than half). Gays are actually the only group of people that can literally say "you know what, this job actually sux ass and isnt for me, id like to quit". Everyone else gets a "shut up and go back to work" until their contract runs out. I have actually never seen a person be removed involuntarily from the army for being gay, but then again I dont work as a JAG.

[Kuya]

So the problem with gays in the military is that they get distracted by other men, and that straight men are uncomfortable sleeping and bathing near them, and without don't ask don't tell, they might more easily be attacked by other soldiers. And with don't ask don't tell, you still have gays in the military getting distracted by other men, but maybe not getting attacked as much, and maybe straight men having an excuse to relax.

Hopefully when they find the gene or hormones that make you gay, we can easily expel all gays from the military so we can end this little problem, since we can't bunk them with straights, women, or even themselves.