RDM/WHM vs RDM/SCH as healer in bird camp

[Ultimagi]

I agree with Rog, it shouldn't happen to a competent player. If you really need Erase or Curaga, the support Bard is usually subbing White Mage anyway.

[Eldelphia]

if all dd are /nin, then i use /blm, for conserve mp, warp, and sometimes aspir (gogo blink). if i had /sch leveled, then i'd certainly use that.

honestly, there isn't really any excuse for getting hit with elegy. before i had rdm leveled, i used nin for all my meriting, and by the time i finished all the merits i needed (admittedly nin doesn't need all that many merits, but still), i don't think i ever got hit with elegy. not once. if anyone with /nin gets hit with elegy, honestly, i'd rather take the slower kills for a few mins, and keep it on them anyway. maybe they'll learn to keep shadows up after the first or second time it happens.

Meh it hardly ever hits a DD, it can hit a BRD. I can keep shadows up but links/pops can happen. It's not a reason necessarily for a RDM to sub WHM but I do think Curaga is. In all honesty from everything I've seen so far, WHM/SCH still appeals far more to me than RDM/anything for merits. If I saw a RDM subbling BLMs for merits, I'd not invite them unless we had a specific need. BLM offers nothing, at least I can see that SCH offers regen II.

Buy a warp cudgel and no on birds as BRD you'd be subbing NIN. I don't have time to stop and erase/cure someone else. That's what the healer is for.

[Karshe]

At birds, RDM/SCH always. If you get hit by elegy, you fail is my opinion. I've pulled plenty of times and keeping shadows up isn't a problem as long as you don't zone out and/or get lazy.

I don't really understand the appeal of /SCH for a RDM. Not trying to be bitchy, just don't get it. Please explain!

/SCH provides MP cost reduction and lower spell recast across the board, conserve MP, native fast cast, Penury + Cure IV, and Regen II. It also gives a better aspir if you're feeling lucky with blink and/or the spell target of the reflected aspir. Wanting RDM/WHM for divine seal with convert is a fail argument because you can just Penury + CureIV x2 after convert. Wanting RDM/BLM for warp is even worse. >.> I have both WHM and RDM leveled and see no need for curaga at birds. Mamool, Mire, sure... but not birds. (Edit: Ok, maybe if your BRD gets desperate and used horde lullaby. Wouldn't have to spam cure1's... but that's a pretty uncommon circumstance).

SCH excells at MP Conservation and it lends itself to RDM/SCH perfectly.

[Shin Volcano]

After trying all 3 subs... /sch works very well, BUT it's NOT for everyone, there is alot of extra work involved, and you can't rule out that somone may get hit with elegy, it's better to be safe then sorry, giving the whole "dd shouldnt get hit with elegy" is bs becuase i'v watched birds pecking flurry then elegy right after, or it goes thru blink since blink does not always proc, then your timers are screwed, and most brds /nin anyway forhigher exp per hour so they dont die pulling, or get elegy and slept, /blm fails in a merit pt, period, curaga, erase and divine seal so you arent sitting in red after convert are pretty key, and using drain or aspir on birds you need to be slaped.. cause 7/10 they'll just do it right back to you, and remeber, that blink wont always work. /SCH is very good..but it's still situaonal, as far as im concerd it works best as WHM main, and sometimes blm for very specific fights (yes i have tried blm/sch and did quite well so i know it can work), other jobs i have not seen use it to judge, for me most of the brds always /nin so im ussualy stuck with the only erase, only times brd /whm is if there is a dbl brd pt or its an exp pt. i just use whm/sch in merit pts sometimes and normally don't have MP issues unless ppl come /war or /sam and i can keep up just as good as a rdm can.

[Ultimagi]

I don't know what kind of parties you people are in where both Bards are subbing Ninja. Usually the Ballad and Minuet Bard is subbing White Mage and can easily cast Erase on anyone that gets hit with Elegy.

Subbing Scholar is by far the most efficient when you don't absolutely require Erase or Curaga II.

[Amastacia]

At birds, RDM/SCH always. If you get hit by elegy, you fail is my opinion. I've pulled plenty of times and keeping shadows up isn't a problem as long as you don't zone out and/or get lazy.



/SCH provides MP cost reduction and lower spell recast across the board, conserve MP, native fast cast, Penury + Cure IV, and Regen II. It also gives a better aspir if you're feeling lucky with blink and/or the spell target of the reflected aspir. Wanting RDM/WHM for divine seal with convert is a fail argument because you can just Penury + CureIV x2 after convert. Wanting RDM/BLM for warp is even worse. >.> I have both WHM and RDM leveled and see no need for curaga at birds. Mamool, Mire, sure... but not birds. (Edit: Ok, maybe if your BRD gets desperate and used horde lullaby. Wouldn't have to spam cure1's... but that's a pretty uncommon circumstance).

SCH excells at MP Conservation and it lends itself to RDM/SCH perfectly.

Or...

You're a WAR/SAM, DRK/SAM, DRG/SAM, SAM/notNIN?

You'd have to put a gun to my head to make me sub NIN in a competent bird party. Seigan is plenty for damage mitigation and NIN is a horrible DD sub when you really don't need the extra survival buffer.

[Ophannus]

I also like to wear my HP set on the way to camp(can get 1600~ HP) and use Sublimation so when I start running out of MP i can activate for a nice 400 mp, then just use refresh for the duration of the pt. when ppl go afk i charge a sublimation while i rest w/ stoneskin

[Karshe]

Or...

You're a WAR/SAM, DRK/SAM, DRG/SAM, SAM/notNIN?

You'd have to put a gun to my head to make me sub NIN in a competent bird party. Seigan is plenty for damage mitigation and NIN is a horrible DD sub when you really don't need the extra survival buffer.

I was referring to the BRD/NIN pulling.

[Shin Volcano]

People seem to forget that /nin is a horrible dd sub for any job that isn't thf or dnc, and even then i'v seen good thf/war players. /nin is a serious crutch, and mnk pretty much has to sub nin for survival due to there massive DOT and constant tanking as war, and even then, it still dosnt rule out tthe way it gimps mnk, i dont play a merit SAM but even i get disgusted watching any sam who subs nin in a merit pt, or drg for that matter, i didnt think they needed it unless they didnt have /sam, but sometimes they get unlucky with third eye and end up taking mass damage. but as WHM i'v still be able to keep up due to penury Cure V people just need to learn to try new things, on bird camps erase may be needed...however on mamool camps you can get away without it.

I'v personaly never 2 brd/nin in 1 pt, and hope to not ever..cause that makes no sense. I prefer Brd/nin and Cor/whateverthefucktheysub which seems to be better.

[Ultimagi]

If you pull with Elegy, it will only reflect at the Bard anyway. If you pull with Throwing or Light Threnody, or anything that isn't Elegy, then cast it at camp after its been Provoked, that's when you might get hit with the reflect.

[Thorny]

If you pull with Elegy, it will only reflect at the Bard anyway. If you pull with Throwing or Light Threnody, or anything that isn't Elegy, then cast it at camp after its been Provoked, that's when you might get hit with the reflect.

occasionally people merit with decent wars that provoke mobs as they're incoming out of habit, once in a while those wars get off provoke before elegy has been reflected
personally, i always used rdm/whm.. if you're keeping everyone alive and hasted at all times and diaing pulls then who cares which sub is more efficient on mp, not like there's enough extra to make it worth nuking birds on /sch an erased elegy on a DD increases killspeed more than a blizzard 3 if you look at the duration and how much it lowers their damage output :/

[fantasticdan]

I don't see why anyone would go /sch to birds. It might give you a little more mp efficiency, but who runs out of mp there? Silly to lose erase for elegy, and if you're clearing fast enough that you need to pull wivre sometimes to keep chain, than erase (and DS) are invaluable if they do that -50% atk move.

[Rahm]

On birds I normally go rdm/sch. The -10% cost for spells under the right arts is really nice matched with penury, and lolconserve mp trait/gear (Yeah, I'm looking at you fourth mace/Saio). Normally, I merit with the brd + cor combo and my mp stays above 80%. Most of the time I don't really need to refresh myself(which is a nice way to save 36 mp, due to me already casting Stoneskin so I can rest when the bird reflects dia at me.), I can just charge and keep a sublimation up, untill I get lower on mp, and need to use my charged sublimation and add my refresh to the ballad + evoker's roll combo. I static merits with some friends, and I can't remember the last time our brd got hit with elegy, or that I needed a to cast a curaga.

[tsola]

It's not a question of being a competent player or not in terms of getting hit with elegy. Obviously if you're constantly getting hit with elegy every other pull, something is wrong, but it's not uncommon for me in a ~2hour merit party to cast erase 5~ times to remove elegy. People make mistakes, things happen. Also if you fight wivres, erase is helpful deal with that terrible attack down, and having 2 erases (either BRD/WHM or COR/WHM) is even better for that.

Besides you don't need the mp efficiency of /SCH. I never have MP problems at all as /WHM, with diaing every mob, keeping haste up on everyone, and general cures.

[Alistaire]

A good party at birds (30k an hour) should be clearing all birds and wivre and thus erase is pretty vital. We normally roll with cor and rdm so that gives our melee 2 erases.

This. Needing erase has little to do with elegy. It's about erase's long recast and how you'll lose chain relying on a brd or cor being the only one to erase 3 melees.

So if for whatever reason the party isn't going to fight wivres /sch is great, I've done it a few times and love it.

[deiopea]

/WHM for erase when birds aren't enough and you fight wyvre to keep chain.

edit: I missed the post about someone else saying this!

[Raineer]

People seem to forget that /nin is a horrible dd sub for any job that isn't thf or dnc, and even then i'v seen good thf/war players. /nin is a serious crutch, and mnk pretty much has to sub nin for survival due to there massive DOT and constant tanking as war, and even then, it still dosnt rule out tthe way it gimps mnk, i dont play a merit SAM but even i get disgusted watching any sam who subs nin in a merit pt, or drg for that matter, i didnt think they needed it unless they didnt have /sam, but sometimes they get unlucky with third eye and end up taking mass damage. but as WHM i'v still be able to keep up due to penury Cure V people just need to learn to try new things, on bird camps erase may be needed...however on mamool camps you can get away without it.

I'v personaly never 2 brd/nin in 1 pt, and hope to not ever..cause that makes no sense. I prefer Brd/nin and Cor/whateverthefucktheysub which seems to be better.

I think this was my frustration, is that /NIN gimps you so much.

If /notNIN is what helps you kill the fastest, and your particular RDM needs to /WHM to keep up with erase/curaga and such, then they should sub /WHM. If they can keep up with /SCH then they should play that way.

The goal is to kill mobs and get XP, not bring Utsusemi just to be nice to the RDM.

[Kerberoz]

This. Needing erase has little to do with elegy. It's about erase's long recast and how you'll lose chain relying on a brd or cor being the only one to erase 3 melees.

So if for whatever reason the party isn't going to fight wivres /sch is great, I've done it a few times and love it.

/facepalm

[Classikmage]

Birds are so easy, you'd be better off with a good WHM/SCH over a RDM. I have both leveled and I honstly like WHM/SCH at birds more. Between sublimation, Aspir, Protectra V, Conserve MP, Clear Mind 4 it's very hard to run out of MP as long as you know how to rest when needed. Last PT I was in the BRD even stopped using ballad and concentrated on keeping the chain more, I didn't bother saying anything because I didn't really feel like I needed it anyway since I wasn't even going below 75% of my MP pool.

[Sobie]

Really, conserve MP shouldn't be a factor here, since all you DD's won't be taking damage anyway right? MP is clearly not an issue at bird camps because the DD's will always have shadows or seigan up, and if the RDM is running out of MP, its always because they are mismanaging their MP pool and has nothing to do with the /WAR's and /SAM's in the party.

Amirite?