marathon running for smokers

[Serif]

Hey Tych, isn't it forefoot running natural? I noticed it when transitioning from jogging to sprinting ;x

Most everyone sprints on their forefront is why you notice it from the transition from jogging to sprinting.

You can do a jog/pace many different ways. You rarely, if ever, see a sprinter who runs on their heels.

If I am still working for my Father I should be able to get off, but if not I am not sure what my schedule would be.

[Tyche]

Most (a huge majority) of distance runners heelstrike. The way shoes are made, they really pad the heels and comfort distance runners over a long distance. Forefoot running is more natural, but when distance running, you pay a huge price in the transition. Your calves go through pure hell. Once your calves make the adjustment however, you can run faster with less effort. Most of your elite distance runners forefoot strike. It's natural and it allows you to carry your body's momentum a bit easier. It's why these Kenyan's who run 4:40 miles over 26 miles don't have these huge muscular calves. Their gait is efficient and requires less effort than a heel strike. You have to really increase your cadence however. Anything less than about 90/minute is probably going to be less efficient. This is a heavily debated topic, but you can check out the POSE method for more information. The idea behind it is that instead of rolling off your heel and pushing your body weight forward, you will simply lift your leg and fall forward (really fast, cadence). The difference is pushing your entire body forward or simply lifting your leg. Which requires less effort? If you can practice it, and be patient, the rewards are incredible.

[Stumblingdrunk]

You rarely, if ever, see a sprinter who runs on their heels.

You will NEVER see a competitive sprinter run on his heels.

[Serif]

You will NEVER see a competitive sprinter run on his heels.

God now you are going to make me look like an ass hat now...Nope never mind not going to post the picture.

[Stumblingdrunk]

God now you are going to make me look like an ass hat now...Nope never mind not going to post the picture.

seriously? I'd be damn impressed if you had pics of a sprinter not running on the balls of his feet and actually being competitive.

[Talus]

Huge calves on Kenyans? LOL

Nothing is huge about them, except for their VO2 max/lung capacity.

[Edit: Helps that a lot of them grow up running to school every day.]

[Tyche]

Huge calves on Kenyans? LOL

Nothing is huge about them, except for their VO2 max/lung capacity.

[Edit: Helps that a lot of them grow up running to school every day.]

I said that's why they >don't< have huge calves. They take advantage of muscular elasticity. Plus, you know, they run at like 7000+ feet elevation as well as some physiological advantages.

edit:

This study intended to take a biomechanical approach to understand the success of Kenyan distance runners. Anthropometric, gait and lower extremity strength characteristics of six elite Kenyan distance runners were analyzed. Stride frequency, relative stride length and ground contact time were measured at five running speeds (3.5 - 5.4 m/s) using a motion capture system. Isometric knee extension and flexion torques were measured at six angles and hamstrings and quadriceps (H:Q) ratios at three angular velocities were determined using an isokinetic dynamometer. These runners were characterized by a low body mass index (20.1 ± 1.8 kg·m- 2), low percentage body fat (5.1 ± 1.6%) and small calf circumference (34.5 ± 2.3 cm). At all running speeds, the ground contact time was shorter (p < 0.05) during right (170 - 212 ms) compared to left (177 - 220 ms) foot contacts. No bilateral difference was observed in other gait or strength variables. Their maximal isometric strength was lower than other runners (knee extension: 1.4 - 2.6 Nm·kg-1, knee flexion: 1.0 - 1.4 Nm·kg-1) but their H:Q ratios were higher than athletes in other sports (1.03 ± 0.51 at 60o/s, 1.44 ± 0.46 at 120o/s, 1.59 ± 0.66 at 180o/s). The slim limbs of Kenyan distance runners may positively contribute to performance by having a low moment of inertia and thus requiring less muscular effort in leg swing. The short ground contact time observed may be related to good running economy since there is less time for the braking force to decelerate forward motion of the body. These runners displayed minor gait asymmetry, though the difference may be too small to be practically significant. Further investigations are needed to confirm whether the bilateral symmetry in strength and high H:Q ratios are related to genetics, training or the lack of injuries in these runners.

[Talus]

Apparently I can't read.

Where was that study published?

Muscle elasticity doesn't have a lot to do with it. Muscles by nature are elastic, pretty much all types of muscle tissue - skeletal, smooth and cardiac, which is due to the structure of the muscle tissue, in particular skeletal with the long and short fibers, i.e. "sliding filament" theory. In anatomy and physiology, there is predominantly a complementarity between structure and function.

What would be the physiological advantages? The blurb from the study you quote seems to indicate that further research is necessary, w/r/t H:Q strength ratio (4 quadriceps muscles vastus medialis, vastus lateralis, vastus intermedius and rectus femoris vs. 3 hamstring muscles semimembranosus, semitendinosus and biceps femoris, so the "ideal" H:Q symmetry strength ratio is around 1.33:1.

[Tyche]

Journal of sports medicine. The muscle elasticity comment has to do with their gait, not how elastic their muscles actually are. The gait they use takes advantage of the elastic nature of muscles. And I don't mean biological when I say physiological, which vLT and vVO2 max falls under. Their elevation alone gives them a physiological advantage.

[Serif]

As it is true that muscles are elastic it takes training for this to come about generally.

As I generally swim a lot but I also used to do concentrated workouts focusing on strength I can easily tell, I know this isn't a study proved by anything and just from personal experience, a difference in my muscles after swimming while working out or just swimming in general. I can build more muscle seeing how my muscles are becoming more elastic. Which is why you never see huge professional swimmers.

The advantage especially in running with having very elastic muscles and being extremely lightweight as the Kenyans are are pretty much explained in that paragraph. I would have to look up some studies but the lighter you are the easier it is for you to run, hell you really don't have to look up studies to understand this. When I began running I weighed around 240 but before my marathon I was close to 190. I easily cut off a large chunk of my time compared to when I weighed so much.

The training that Tyche is suggesting helps increase elasticity in the calf muscles keeping them small but highly efficient. This in turn goes back to swimmers, there are many different ways to swim but you generally only see the best way when watching the Olympics, it is the most efficient use of their highly elastic muscles.

If I am wrong please inform me but that is how I generally looked at elasticity for muscles

[Tyche]

He is correct that elasticity may not have a lot to do with it, but that's largely depending on the gait employed. You can have muscles that are like rubber bands, but if your gait doesn't utilize that, it's a complete waste.

[Tristam]

I guess muscle elasticity would come into play during the push off from the ground, since it's an isometric (no shortening/lengthening of the sarcomeres) force-production event. Think about pushing against a wall with your hands, you're generating some amount of force but your muscles aren't contracting. Maybe it has something to do with that?

[Tyche]

Look at it this way....if you don't use the elasticity in your muscles, then the force you are employing has to come from stored energy. If you can generate a force with the elastic nature of muscles, then less energy will be utilized to generate that force. Think of jumping on a trampoline vs jumping on a table. This is an extreme correlation, but the mechanics are the same. You can use less energy and less force to achieve the same result as you would get on a table because of the elastic nature of the trampoline.

edit: The method I was talking about earlier (POSE) doesn't really require you to push off to generate a force. It's more lifting of the legs and falling forward than anything. No matter how fast you run, the distance of your stride will remain the same. You just increase your cadence (turn-over rate). It's difficult for me to explain, people write books on it

[Serif]

Yo Tyche, need your input on some clothing options to train in.

This will be my first time training in the intense cold weather. When I ran in the Marathon all I had on was running shorts/running tank top/running jacket. Didn't bother me too much besides warming up, took the jacket off after that.

But now seeing how it is normally anywhere from 10-50 degrees what would you recommend wearing ?

Last time I saw a picture of you in your running gear you looked like you were in a one piece elastic suit haha...

Generally the cold doesn't bother me too much once my body warms up after running 2-3 miles.

[Jefe]

Btw, how's 1.5 miles between 9:23-9:58 compare w/ you guys? For some reason I'm not as consistent as I'd like to be... I guess I'll blame it on the traffic

Hey Serif, I wonder if the cold weather will affect your times. I tend to run "well" when it's kinda cold (cold to me is around the low 60s), but when it warms up my times start to suck...

[Tyche]

Well, beings that the cool season will be coming to an end in about a month and a half, I'd hate to tell you to spend a lot of money. Get a good pair of running tights, they aren't cheap either. Probably set you back about $60. I grabbed an Underarmor balaclava that I like too. Other than that, saucony and brooks both make running mittens (warmer than gloves). Oh, and you have to wear the tights without shorts over them. If the package isn't bulging out in front of everyone, you're doing it wrong. I wear two shirts if it's cold (shortsleeve under a long-sleeve), both Nike dri-fit.

As far as weather goes, I think I ran the best 10-miler I've ever ran this past saturday when it was 40 degrees outside. It felt so damn good. Weather doesn't effect my times too much, but my discomfort greatly.

As far as the 9:30 1.5miles, I don't know. Depends on if I was to keep running for another 10-15 miles after the 1.5. That's about 6 minutes a mile so I'd imagine I could handle that. To be honest though, I don't do short sustained speed very well. I'm not even really that good at a 5k. A sub 17 minute 5k would require pushing myself harder than I'd want to.

[Serif]

I do tend to run better in the cold weather as well but it just sucks getting outside the first mile and having the shitty weather hit you right in the face.

The 10 minute 1.5 miler isn't bad at all, the last time I really did time 1 mile/2milers was in HS and I hated doing it. I prefer longer runs and hate forcing myself to do speed 1mile runs.

Haha and Tyche you would probably die at my cross country team pic, if we do meet up for this marathon I will bring the yearbook photo...oh man.

I will more than likely just pic up some tights, I hope they make them long enough for me D:

[Jefe]

The reason why I run that distance 2x a week is to increase my stamina. Like I mentioned before and I told Serif about it, I run 1x 7 mile per week. My goal was to decrease the time as much as I could, IIRC my PR is 53 min and a few sec. I could never lower that. Can't do cross country, I live basically in a flat city.

[Serif]

I still generally like running long distances more than short. Even though you can burn a lot of calories off if you do a REALLY QUICK short distance at a high bpm.

I guess that is why I like swimming so much too, it is just tranquil to me.

[Azkarin2]

I was planning on running in the ING Marathon at the end of March but my plans changed and grad school/CPA exam got demanding. So I'm settling for the half-marathon then which is good since I've never done long distance running. So I have a few questions but I'll settle for just one right now as time is an issue. I usually run indoors but want to start running outdoors for the hills/weather. I wore a Underarmor compression long sleeve shirt and it was great at keeping me warm but the last 10 minutes my nips really were getting chafed/irritated (after The Office episode with Andy Bernard bleeding I never thought that this was common). I know people used tape to avoid this problem and just wanted to make sure that any medical tape will do. Anything else I should know about avoiding this horrible problem?