marathon running for smokers

[wintersquall]

hai guyz, wut's goin on in here? biology/physiology/kenyans' calves, good stuff.

i had to take a couple days off running because i ripped the hell out of my triceps on my first day back with less than 2 sets >.> but i went back for my second run last night. got 2.29 miles in 30:00, 10 min walking @4.0mph warmup, a 10:00 mile, fully running; then CD at 3.8-5.0mph. thought i was gonna die, but i actually ran a mile without stopping.


two questions:

- i had HORRIBLE pain in my left calve, like the front left side of the leg about 5 min in... i ran through it and it got better, but i think i need to relearn (or learn, i never did this well) how to stretch. any good resources? and how the fuck do you stretch the front of your calf well other than turning your foot down?

- the bottom outside of my left foot, from about the middle all the way to the end, was completely numb after running for a few minutes and remained that way until well after running. it isn't numb normally. think it might be a shoe thing, an adjustment to working out thing, possibly related to the calf pain, or something else? just seemed weird to me, i don't remember that ever happening.



i also found mapmyrun.com and am using that for workout logging, linked it to my facebook so people can get a good laugh until i get in shape. cool site.

oh, and holy FUCK i hurt this morning >.> i think i accidentally the whole smoking thing too, haven't had one since last night before the gym and got snus instead. what can i do at the gym today that won't kill me and allow my body to rest? really don't want to miss a day, even if it's not uber-productive.

[Talus]

I'm not getting into it with you Tyche. This thread got sidetracked from "running for smokers" to Serif & Tyche meet-up, to random running thread. I stand by my initial post where I suggested the OP get on Chantix to quit smoking, and he's free to follow other advice.

[Tristam]

Hell, it's hard to argue when you just say I have "misconceptions", but don't actually argue what those misconceptions are. Maybe those misconceptions have nothing to do with any of the above I just typed about. Be more specific. Or maybe it wasn't directed toward me. I don't know.

I don't think it was anything about high-altitude training, I think he was talking about that muscle-elasticity thing, and i think you may have meant tendon elasticity, which does have an ideal range for elite endurance athletes. But for muscle, regardless, the biggest black box anyways is fatigue, not necessarily the mechanical properties. The molecular mechanisms for fatigue in elite athletes are not very well understood, even though we now know there are at least four different fiber types with varying fatigue resistances, I'd bet there's something fundamentally different about the fatigue response in elite atheletes and I'm sure someday soon we'll know how to apply that to non-elites.

[Tristam]

- i had HORRIBLE pain in my left calve, like the front left side of the leg about 5 min in... i ran through it and it got better, but i think i need to relearn (or learn, i never did this well) how to stretch. any good resources? and how the fuck do you stretch the front of your calf well other than turning your foot down?

oh, and holy FUCK i hurt this morning >.> i think i accidentally the whole smoking thing too, haven't had one since last night before the gym and got snus instead. what can i do at the gym today that won't kill me and allow my body to rest? really don't want to miss a day, even if it's not uber-productive.

Front of your lower leg? Could it be shin splints. This could be a problem with your shoes, but is much more likely due to just starting running again. OTC pain killers can help for a time, or even taping the lower leg if it's not too bad, but if it's persistent unfortunately you gotta see a doctor.

No idea on the foot numbness, never heard of that before!

If your calf is still bugging you at the gym, I would go to a stationary bike for a while, don't get too aggressive.

edit: some stretches
http://www.active.com/triathlon/Arti...o_a_Runner.htm

[Tyche]

I don't think it was anything about high-altitude training, I think he was talking about that muscle-elasticity thing, and i think you may have meant tendon elasticity, which does have an ideal range for elite endurance athletes. But for muscle, regardless, the biggest black box anyways is fatigue, not necessarily the mechanical properties. The molecular mechanisms for fatigue in elite athletes are not very well understood, even though we now know there are at least four different fiber types with varying fatigue resistances, I'd bet there's something fundamentally different about the fatigue response in elite atheletes and I'm sure someday soon we'll know how to apply that to non-elites.

Could be the case, I don't know. I have a variety of books/mags on the subject of running. It was a reference to what I've read. The point about muscle elasticity came from a book by Dr. Nicholas Romanov. Since I don't expect you to buy the book, you can find excerpts from it.

Using all the forces involved in running - gravity, inertia, ground reaction and muscle elasticity - is intended to help gravity pull your body forward. Co-ordinating the timing of these forces (the time when each force is acting and when it's not) produces a comprehensive running model that will enhance your performance.

Muscle elasticity is an important component of changing support, too, and is achieved by pulling your foot from the ground.

The way you change support in running is your gait. Maybe I'm not using it in the correct context. If I'm not, how so? Not trying to be a smart-ass, as I said, the subject is engaging to me, so if I'm misunderstanding a concept, I like to know how.

[wintersquall]

Front of your lower leg? Could it be shin splints. This could be a problem with your shoes, but is much more likely due to just starting running again. OTC pain killers can help for a time, or even taping the lower leg if it's not too bad, but if it's persistent unfortunately you gotta see a doctor.

No idea on the foot numbness, never heard of that before!

If your calf is still bugging you at the gym, I would go to a stationary bike for a while, don't get too aggressive.

edit: some stretches
How a Swimmer Can Stretch Into a Runner | Active.com

it's not shin splints, althought it feels like them. it's about 3 inches to the outside of the calf muscle from the shin... really weird. and yeah, the foot numbness thing freaked me out but i wanted to finish the workout... made it 18 hours without a cig so far XD

a friend is telling me not to stretch before i run, but to warmup and then stretch... so now i'm confused, isn't that going to kill the cardio benefit of the workout?

[MrW]

Warming up before you stretch is a great idea. If you just start to stretch before your muscles are warm, there is a possibility of you tearing the muscle which would defeat the purpose of you stretching in the first place.

[Tristam]

Could be the case, I don't know. I have a variety of books/mags on the subject of running. It was a reference to what I've read. The point about muscle elasticity came from a book by Dr. Nicholas Romanov. Since I don't expect you to buy the book, you can find excerpts from it.





The way you change support in running is your gait. Maybe I'm not using it in the correct context. If I'm not, how so? Not trying to be a smart-ass, as I said, the subject is engaging to me, so if I'm misunderstanding a concept, I like to know how.

Ok, did a brief literature study and you're right about muscle elasticity, I completely forgot about filament stretching. It turns out that large animals (horses for example) are more efficient at running than small animals (mice) because they're able to store energy produced by filament stretching in elastic structures during one phase of the stride (probably the stance phase, which is ~74% of the total energy requirement of running) and release during contraction shortening in another phase (I'm guessing the swing phase, which accounts for 26% of the energy requirement of running?). So when you're running, the kinetic and gravitational energy while the foot is on the ground is counterbalanced by the leg muscles producing force, and some muscles are stretched in that phase. When you step up, some of that force is applied via elastic recoil to the muscles contracting in the swing phase. The end result is that for a given gait and speed, there is an ideal step frequency that maximizes efficiency via elastic recoil and keeps the center of mass of the body moving forward without too much wasted up and down motion.

Put another way, if you run faster and don't increase your cycle rate, you waste energy pushing up to keep your center of mass on average going in a straight line. If you increase your cycle rate you don't push up as much and more of the elastic energy goes to swinging forward.

There's still a bunch I don't understand, specifically which muscles are stretching/shortening at what times, but I think I have a better handle on it.

From Cavagna and Kaneko, J. phys, 1977

during running at a 'constant' speed, on the contrary,
external negative work is done, and consequently elastic energy can be
stored, also at the lowest speeds. It may be thought that the forces involved
in walking are too small to stretch appreciably the tendons thus storing
elastic energy. However elastic energy can be stored also within the contractile
component (Huxley & Simmons, 1971): the elastic energy stored
within each active fibre, when it is forcibly stretched, is independent of the
total force, i.e. of the number of fibres brought into activity.

[Tyche]

Yeah, it goes in to talking about diminishing returns with anything under a candence of about 90 per minute (I think that was it, haven't read the book in a while). I believe the book said that under 90 was actually inefficient. I didn't understand why, although what you said would shed light onto why that is. It focuses a lot on cadence in the book and how you don't actually change stride length, but turnover rate to run faster. It's an interesting read, although one of the longer books.

[wintersquall]

ok, i DON'T want to ask this question, but i have to.

been having those problems with the numbness and pain, so i'm heading to the running room tonight to see what they can tell me. i'm 99% sure it's something in the shoes, like a bump or something - i laced them much looser last night and i could still feel that the problems were there, but they weren't nearly as bad. problem is, i can't afford a $120-160 pair of shoes right now, and that's the cheapest ones i see on their website.

anyone have any suggestions for a decent training shoe that won't break the bank?

on a side note, in day 3 of training last night i covered 3.41 miles at a 13:05 pace combining running and walking... even that slowass pace over 26.2 will keep me in front of the medevac and get me my t-shirt/medal haha :D

edit: day 3 of not smoking, willpower and snus baby.

[Jefe]

I'm a big fan of the Adida's Adistar, this ones aren't that bad: Adidas Men's Adistar Control 4 Running Shoe I have Adistar6 and it's a great shoe. If you want something more specialized, you should go to one of those stores where they figure out what type of runner you are, which shoe is best for you, etc. However, it may be a bit pricey.


Edit: Just noticed amazon has a couple of sizes -.-

[wintersquall]

i went with the adidas supernove CLA M, they were on clearance as they are an old model, but shoes are brand new (i only wear an 8 or 8.5, small feet - shuddup). not sure what year's model they are, as i can't find much on the web about them - maybe 2007?

the guy at the running store said i have a high arch and pronate a little, so these should be perfect. we'll see at the gym tonight i guess. not to mention, i got them for the same price as the insole he was originally going to sell me to try and fix the shin thing/numbness issue.

[Stumblingdrunk]

on a side note, in day 3 of training last night i covered 3.41 miles at a 13:05 pace combining running and walking... even that slowass pace over 26.2 will keep me in front of the medevac and get me my t-shirt/medal haha :D

edit: day 3 of not smoking, willpower and snus baby.

Gonna repeat myself here, your single biggest concern right now should be in not over exerting yourself. You are definitely running too far and too hard for day 3. It is my assumption this issue needs to be addressed before you start reevaluating your choice in footwear. Slow down your warm up, and yes, NEVER stretch cold muscles. Honestly you're better off stretching after a run than you are stretching cold, but ideally, stretching is done following a mild warm up. Stretching cold muscles increases your injury risk. Right now your primary concern is in getting your legs strong enough to handle your workouts. You should have very little concern about increasing aerobic capacity at this stage. Keep working at the pace you're going, and injuries are inevitable. Check back with the Higdon plan you posted earlier, checking your current workouts against it should show you that you are doing more than you should be. I'd strongly advise sticking to a beginner plan for the first 30 days if you hope to keep your legs healthy enough to train in only 9 months.

[Duwie]

I bought that book tyche recommended at the start of the thread "Run less, Run faster" and It seems pretty solid but I'm wondering if anyone that has followed the program done it through a tredmill? Seems hard to do so when it calls for those short interval runs (Ex; 400m x 5 with 90 second RIs) Any tips? Hoping that staring at the distance on the tredmill wont be the only way, maybe the Nikeid plug in my shoes have would be of use?

[Tyche]

Spraypaint + road. Just a little dot on the curb every 200 meters should suffice. Maybe some sidewalk chalk, although spraypain would hold up a bit better since your doing those once a week. Of course, an indoor track is the easiest. I've never done them on a treadmill. I actually hate running on a treadmill.

[volcanicweather]

You absolutely should warm up before stretching... jumping jacks, jogging in place (bring your knees to your hands), doing reachers, leg kicks, etc. This should be for about 3-5 minutes.

With your body warm, it's time to stretch. If you've ever done yoga before, do a downward dog and bend one knee and make sure the other leg is fully straight... this stretch is awesome. Another stretch I really like is spreading my legs out about shoulder width and collapsing your head and torso into your groin area while keeping your legs straight. You should also be stretching your quads and calfs with more static stretches.

I strongly agree with stumblingdrunk, you should not be overexerting yourself right away. You're just asking for injury and troubles down the road. If something doesn't feel right, STOP, and figure out what the problem is. Don't continue... the numb foot stuff you were talking about is scary and you really should have stopped. It could have been something very serious.

As an alternative to running, you can do leg exercises such as calf raises, lunges, etc. There's a whole slew of exercises you can do to enhance leg strength and flexibility, which is very important. Add weights if it's too easy and do enough until you really feel the burn. Leg muscles are deceptive, they aren't "glorified" like chest and arms are, and can still appear to be "buff" for some people even if they never work them out, so people neglect them. This is terrible logic, especially for a runner.

Also, one of the worst things you can do while working out is get into a "routine"... your muscles will adjust to your routine and eventually you will see minimal progress. Mix it up every couple of weeks and you'll see better growth and results.

[Serif]

Numb foot can mean anything though, I guess I am old school.

I guess what I am trying to say is don't be a little pansy bitch with worrying about too many injuries. But also don't be an idiot and run on a leg that is turning green/blue.

[Tyche]

You can still train with injuries, you may just have to train in other ways. Lower intensity, lower milage, or cross train in a fashion that doesn't impact your injury. Last october I blew up my IT Band (not literally). I could run about 2 or 3 miles at full intensity before it felt like someone was taking a clamp and turning it against my knee. One of the worst pains ever. As I said earlier, I'd spend ad least 2 days of Y! time just swimming/biking, etc just to recover a bit at this stage.