The best interview in the universe

[Wintermute]

How will the Wii business model kill gaming as an artform? No matter how much the Wii changes main stream gaming there will always be the fringe people who make games for the sake of it being art.

People who make fringe games are ignored by big publishers because such games are investment risks.
You could program the single best game in the last 10 years but a publisher won't go near it because it's not guaranteed cash in the bank.

Look at Double-Fine. Great developers with talent that've been in the industry for years and they can barely find publishers for their games because their previous game Psychonauts, despite being a great game, was only a cult hit.

With no money to advertise or market their game such indie "artists" usually end up having to go with free distribution and word of mouth to get the game out there, hardly a way to make a living.

Sure some guys manage to do well and get lucky with PSN/XBLA/Steam etc releases but they're lucky to make substantial money for their efforts, and if the game does take off most players torrent a copy anyway.

Indie games are the same as all indie publishing, you need to be in the right place at the right time and get lucky.

The game industry is still relatively young as an art form. When movies went mainstream and became incredibly popular and big it did not ruin movies and it did not stop people from making innovative unusual movies that you can appreciate for being artistic.

"When movies went mainstream?" Show me a period during the introduction of Cinemas/TV where there was a lull or dip. Show me when it was 'Underground' other than during a World War which hardly makes for a compelling argument.

Also doesn't help that any dipshit can make and publish a movie online nowadays with nothing more than a camera, a PC, and some willing friends.

Movies have always been popular, and innovative and unusual movies are buried under Hollywood spam. Having to fish for gems amongst a sea of sewage does not a good industry make.

And have you seen movies recently? I'd say Videogames and Movies are stagnating at the same rate nowadays.

[zoobernut]

People who make fringe games are ignored by big publishers because such games are investment risks.
You could program the single best game in the last 10 years but a publisher won't go near it because it's not guaranteed cash in the bank.

Look at Double-Fine. Great developers with talent that've been in the industry for years and they can barely find publishers for their games because their previous game Psychonauts, despite being a great game, was only a cult hit.

With no money to advertise or market their game such indie "artists" usually end up having to go with free distribution and word of mouth to get the game out there, hardly a way to make a living.

Sure some guys manage to do well and get lucky with PSN/XBLA/Steam etc releases but they're lucky to make substantial money for their efforts, and if the game does take off most players torrent a copy anyway.

Indie games are the same as all indie publishing, you need to be in the right place at the right time and get lucky.



"When movies went mainstream?" Show me a period during the introduction of Cinemas/TV where there was a lull or dip. Show me when it was 'Underground' other than during a World War which hardly makes for a compelling argument.

Also doesn't help that any dipshit can make and publish a movie online nowadays with nothing more than a camera, a PC, and some willing friends.

Movies have always been popular, and innovative and unusual movies are buried under Hollywood spam. Having to fish for gems amongst a sea of sewage does not a good industry make.

And have you seen movies recently? I'd say Videogames and Movies are stagnating at the same rate nowadays.

Even though innovative and unusual movies are buried under hollywood spam people continue to make them. The people who are making innovative unusual movies as well as games will continue to make them even if they do not belong to the mainstream. That was the exact point I was making. The adjustment in what is mainstream and popular and makes the most money will not change what people make with regards to movies and games if they are making their movie or game for the sake of it being an art form.

Only the money grubbing companies scrap their cool projects for popular ones. This does not mean that the movie industry is going to die nor does it mean the game industry is going to die. Innovation is always on the fringe that is why it is risky and interesting.

As one part of the industry stagnates and dies another one will quickly pop up to take its place.

Edit: I just re-read your post and I do not understand your response to what you quoted. You did not answer my question at all or even try to, how will the Wii business model KILL the games as an art form?

[Vandalhart]

Actually he is saying hardcore gamers who play PS3 and Xbox360 are not hardcore gamers because those consoles only have non-hardcore games(which would be EVERYTHING that's not Halo or Madden). It is pretty funny because what it implies is so stupid. He later goes on to suggest what hardcore gamers should play. None of which are on the PS3 or Xbox360 of course... well that's if you pretend the Katamari series has only been on the PS2.

You haven't really conflicted me here, just repeated him while misinterpreting a little.

That's not what I got out of that particular part of the article at all.
What I got out of it is that the reason those games are no longer Hardcore is because they are a dime a dozen.

in⋅no⋅vate

   /ˈɪnhttp://cache.lexico.com/dictionary/g...una/thinsp.pngəˌveɪt/ Show Spelled Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictiona...on_default.gif [in-uh-veyt] Show IPA Pronunciation http://cache.lexico.com/g/d/dictiona...on_default.gif
verb, -vat⋅ed, -vat⋅ing. –verb (used without object)
1. to introduce something new; make changes in anything established. –verb (used with object)
2. to introduce (something new) for or as if for the first time: to innovate a computer operating system.
3. Archaic. to alter.

This is the definition of innovate I'm using.. perhaps yours is different.

I've already said why I don't think the Wii is INNOVATIVE and actually feel it's more of the same with a new marketing spin. Maybe you should explain why it is. BUT you must do this without using a bullshit buzzword like INNOVATION and you can't say "new concepts!" without imply what exactly those might be.

The wii-mote itself is an innovation. It's a new way of controlling how you operate a game. Also, the whole wii-fit game set is innovative. Noone has ever done that with a videogame prior to the Wii.

Both are new concepts and both have never been done before on any other system (though to me, they remind me very closely of other Nintendo devices that were cool, but not well implemented in the past).

I'm not overly familiar with a lot of what's out there frankly, that's why I'm not going to argue until I'm blue in the face. I could easily be overlooking something. I'm not a huge Nintendrone or anything either. These are just the things that I see when I look at the Wii. Perhaps we're getting our wires crossed. You seem to keep talking about software innovation, and I'm talking more about hardware innovation..?

Currently I own all 3 systems. My PS3 is an overglorified FFXI player with BluRay, my Xbox has been nothing but a Left 4 Dead player/FFXI Achievement unlocker, and my Wii hasn't been turned on since I snapped up Dokapon Kingdom.

[BRP]

The wii-mote itself is an innovation. It's a new way of controlling how you operate a game. Also, the whole wii-fit game set is innovative. Noone has ever done that with a videogame prior to the Wii.

Unfortunately you are incorrect. There have been examples in this thread. The most you can credit the wiimote with is that it sacrifices proficiency/specification for more general use. In the end, it didn't introduce anything new. (Not like the 80% games being generic[...like the PS3 or Xbox360, Maddox] and/or shovelware helped)

The Wiifit board wasn't much different. They took weighting scale and split it into 4 parts. The idea itself isn't too unique either. And unless I am misunderstanding you, you seem to be claiming that no one has used a concept like wiifit before? Then just what the fuck is this? Soul Surfer Arcade Game from Sega Amusements USA

Going by the exact definition you posted the wii is not innovative at all. Nothing new was introduced. Nothing newer than a year was introduced. So yes, you are overlooking things. Most the Wii's technology is older than the console itself. Here is an example(wiimote):

This technology is by no means new, accelerometers were used in a product in 2001 that XGaming used to sell called the Cyberstik (or VRJoy), and back in 2000 Microsoft had a big failure of a product with the same tech called the Sidewinder Freestyle Pro. Accelerometers are quite inexpensive at around only fifty cents each, so there is no reason that Wiimotes should cost any more than any other gamepad on the console front. (UPDATE: $60, ouch!). They also work quite well for tilt sensing.

So...

I'm not overly familiar with a lot of what's out there frankly, that's why I'm not going to argue until I'm blue in the face.

Frankly, that's not much of an excuse. When you try to debuke someone you should at least know what the hell you are talking about. Do you want to come off as ignorant? Oh wait, you said innovative 20 times, too late for that. Good job

[Vandalhart]

Okay so I'm wrong.
Since I knew I could missing things then I can easily say that without feeling bad.

Jesus dude..

[Priran]

I'd gladly admit that the Wiimote was innovative if it performed so well that it was actually an acceptable alternative to normal controllers. But as it is, I don't know a single gamer who owns a Wii and hasn't had to dig up/buy a Gamecube controller at one point or another.

[Keider]

Do N64/GC games count? That's all I use my GC controllers for. If they'd let me use the nunchuck for everything, I would.

[Fiye]

Why do people bitch and bitch and bitch about the same thing?

Wii has wiggle waggle.

PS3 should have a longer life span. (plus BLU-RAY Player)

Xbox 360 has a kickass Online service.

And yes, the Video Game industry is a replica of the Movie Industry. The only difference is that we, as people who like playing video games, tend to like the Virtual World more than the Silver Screen. Thus we consider a lot of Movies to be crap, while we prefer a lot of Video Games. Same thing can be said for the other spectrum.

The only difference though is, one is much cheaper than the other. (In terms in retail)

[Kohan]

More people need to read the Party Babyz review. It tells you everything you need to know about the game, and why you should own it.

[Wintermute]

Edit: I just re-read your post and I do not understand your response to what you quoted. You did not answer my question at all or even try to, how will the Wii business model KILL the games as an art form?

I wasn't referring to how the Wii might kill gaming, I was referring to the fact that you suggest it's fine for developers to flood the market with non-games for grandparents as long as some people somewhere might make a good game that will likely get ignored.

Yeah there's a lot of good indie movies, but the fact remains many are so obscure you're lucky to hear of them unless you know the right people.


I commend Nintendo for running a good business, and after the flop that was the Gamecube they got lucky and the DS piereced into the non-gamer market (non labelled "casual") and they followed up ther new found advantage with the Wii.

Wii-Sports, Brain-Training, all this bullshit are non-games designed for people who don't play games. It's nice that Nintendo are laughing all the way to the bank with their 8 to 80 player base or whatever it is, but to gamers I know 90% of the stuff on the Wii is a distraction at best.

As mentioned previously the majority user base for the Wii are people who only play when they're drunk and/or have mates over or people who can only manage to waggle a stick at a screen to move shit about.

It's a fantastic business plan but Nintendo are only burying their own console in trash, in fact, if it weren't for all the non-games the Wii would be the Gamecube all over.
Hell most of the non-games are first-party too, add in the fact that Nintendo pertty much told gamers who supported them through shit to fuck the hell off at E3 and you can't even call them a gaming company, they're an entertainment company now.

My friend loves his Wii, but hasn't bought a game since Zelda, and that was how long ago? His mother uses his Wii more than he does because she actually thinks Wii-Fit is a valid excercise program.

Didn't the Gamecube also have months between good releases?

As innovative as the Wii may be potentially it doesn't matter worth shit if you can't get developers to commit to your console, and forcing the use of motion sensors and then placing the game on the self surrounded by mounds of Wii-Trash is hardly incentive for developers.

That Nintendo could kill the industry is a bit silly. Any gamer I know steers clear of the Wii just because of the few actual games on it.

At best Nintendo is piling itself in shit to turn a profit and will lose all credibility with actual gamers. At worst their love for flooding their market with non-games will give other devs on PS3/360 stupid ideas to try it on those consoles too.

But face it, your average PS3/360 user is better informed than your geriatric/yuppie Wii user and flies right past the trash on the shelf to what they actually want to purchase.

The shit that passes as "games" on the Wii wouldn't fly on other consoles.

Know what? Fuck it, thanks Nintendo for building a collective shit magnet to narrow down what I have to sift through on the shelves when I look for a PS3/360 game.

[Wintermute]

More people need to read the Party Babyz review. It tells you everything you need to know about the game, and why you should own it.

It's a convincing review. But GodHand lets me punch a Gorilla in a Luchadore Mask in the balls.

[Tomiko]

Imagine: Party Babyz! - The Next Level Forum

Relevant and essential reading.

Quality stuff, would read again.

[Guitarman]

Only the money grubbing companies scrap their cool projects for popular ones

Sounds like Activision. Scrapped Brutal Legend and Ghostbusters because, and i quote, they "don't have the potential to be exploited every year". GG. Thankfully said games have both found other publishers; they look really good.

[Wintermute]

Sounds like Activision. Scrapped Brutal Legend and Ghostbusters because, and i quote, they "don't have the potential to be exploited every year". GG. Thankfully said games have both found other publishers; they look really good.

Not scrapped, they just wouldn't publish.

Brutal Legend is planned for a late '09 release thanks to EA,

Ghostbusters is set for June I think, Atari is publishing.

[BRP]

random rambling

This has nothing to do with anything we talking about. What is your point?

Also Activision-Blizzard is much worse than people ever though EA was. They love the Wii as much as the PS3 and Xbox360 really though.

[zoobernut]

I wasn't referring to how the Wii might kill gaming, I was referring to the fact that you suggest it's fine for developers to flood the market with non-games for grandparents as long as some people somewhere might make a good game that will likely get ignored.

Yeah there's a lot of good indie movies, but the fact remains many are so obscure you're lucky to hear of them unless you know the right people.

Way to completely ignore what I said and just argue what you want regardless. I did not suggest it was fine for developers to flood the market with non-games no where did I say that. Strawman argument ect.

First issue is that term "non-games" I already said it but I will say it again just because you consider it a "non-game" does not mean they are not games. Just because you don't like something does not mean you can exclude it. Drawing a parallel with the movie industry that is akin to you not liking horror movies and referring to them as "non-movies".

Second as is shown in the movie industry and the game industry no matter what is most popular and makes the most money because it is mainstream there will be developers and film makers making independent and innovative art which you say yourself in your post. Your seemingly only qualm with the whole situation is that those great games and movies do not get enough press and are not well known enough which makes them hard to find and hear about.

To me that sounds like you want to play the indie games but your just too lazy to look for them, they are out there. What would you have Nintendo and other game companies do? Create games they want regardless of the public and put them out there? That is not how business works. These industry follows trends in the mainstream and the trend right now is that the user base for the Wii enjoys casual games more than any other genre so those are the games being created. Now conversely just like casual gamers are not forced to like other genre of games other gamers are not forced to partake in the casual games being released on the Wii. We all have choices in what we enjoy and play and nothing has changed with the release of the Wii.

[BRP]

Zoob why are you using a movie genre to describe non-game. Non-game isn't a genre. It's really a quality of game, or lack thereof.


And yes. IQ, language/writing teaching, and fitness programs are non-games. They are iconic examples of non-games.

Not all of the Wii's casual crap are non-games though. The other half of it are mini-games(with WAGGLE sometimes included!) What are mini-games? Basically games which are shitty for the sake of being shitty because people are too intimidated by or being manipulated(cuz they dumb) away from the superior titles.

I am not apart of a crowd would claim the DS/Wii's influence is killing the industry, but they are certainly shitting things up where ever it goes. It's not the apocalypse, just a constant downpour from a black cloud hanging over Mr.Nintendo's roof. I feel sorry for Japan.

The whole mini-game, non-game, and casual crap has been around forever and are not really terrible because you usually can ignore it. Sadly, Nintendo has gone too deep into this territory of madness(they've always loved walking the border) and now their normal games(if not always a bit tainted) are suffering (Mario Kart, Smash Bros - "hurrrr people shouldn't able to lose! that isn't fun!" is this a little league team?).

It doesn't help shitty websites think they should talk about Wii-fit. Moreover you got those blogs and said websites talking negatively about Wii's situation. Dear dumb fucks, why did you even give their non-games press? Reviews even. If you are a database site you might have gone as far as give them a page. "My Japanese Coach" is a game? Where is the page for "Rosetta Stone?"

[zoobernut]

Zoob why are you using a movie genre to describe non-game. Non-game isn't a genre. It's really a quality of game, or lack thereof.


And yes. IQ, language/writing teaching, and fitness programs are non-games. They are iconic examples of non-games.

Not all of the Wii's casual crap are non-games though. The other half of it are mini-games(with WAGGLE sometimes included!) What are mini-games? Basically games which are shitty for the sake of being shitty because people are too intimidated by or being manipulated(cuz they dumb) away from the superior titles.

I am not apart of a crowd would claim the DS/Wii's influence is killing the industry, but they are certainly shitting things up where ever it goes. It's not the apocalypse, just a constant downpour from a black cloud hanging over Mr.Nintendo's roof. I feel sorry for Japan.

The whole mini-game, non-game, and casual crap has been around forever and are not really terrible because you usually can ignore it. Sadly, Nintendo has gone too deep into this territory of madness(they've always loved walking the border) and now their normal games(if not always a bit tainted) are suffering (Mario Kart, Smash Bros - "hurrrr people shouldn't able to lose! that isn't fun!" is this a little league team?).

It doesn't help shitty websites think they should talk about Wii-fit. Moreover you got those blogs and said websites talking negatively about Wii's situation. Dear dumb fucks, why did you even give their non-games press? Reviews even. If you are a database site you might have gone as far as give them a page. "My Japanese Coach" is a game? Where is the page for "Rosetta Stone?"

You can turn any of these concepts into games which in most cases is what game companies have done. Yet people still argue that they are non-games because they encompass a scope that most hardcore gamers are not used to. Calling them non-games is a cop out bullshit answer.

Really all I was saying is that it is retarded to think that the Wii is anything other than a self contained system that has its own place in the game industry. Every console and game company is the same and craps out the same generic stuff that is popular and will sell. You have to be motivated to look for the fun innovative unique games that are out there. If the Wii did not exist it would be some other overly popular thing in its place and everyone would be complaining about that because that is how the mainstream works. The mainstream has always been the uninformed retarded drones who just play what they want because it is fun to them regardless of the people on the sidelines yelling about the awesome indie game that they have never heard of.

If you are mad at Nintendo's business model because you enjoy their franchises that they regurgitate on every system they create and you think their bread and butter franchises are suffering because of the whole casual gaming phenomenon that is another argument and then I agree with you this whole thing would suck for that particular person.

I draw parallels between the movie and video game industries because they are very similar in their behavior and the ebbs and flows of what is being released. They follow the trends of the masses and have a small minority of people who go against that flow to make the truly unique art.

[Towowo]

I believe everyone should read this: Nintendo and its Fan Base; Who Abandoned Who?

[BRP]

I believe everyone should read this: Nintendo and its Fan Base; Who Abandoned Who?

"Nintendo", "Fanbase", and "Abandon" should never be in the same sentence. I won't read it unless you pay me money.

If the Wii did not exist it would be some other overly popular thing in its place and everyone would be complaining about that because that is how the mainstream works. The mainstream has always been the uninformed retarded drones who just play what they want because it is fun to them regardless of the people on the sidelines yelling about the awesome indie game that they have never heard of.

Games being popular is much better than non-games being popular. In either case, that doesn't justify being bad. That leaves a lot of room for counterpoints after the Maddox interview.

And those are non-games. That is not a cop-out answer damn. Hell Nintendo has agreed to their merchandise like Wii-Fit being called non-games. And Wii-Fit is the least non-game of the bunch. It's odd for you to fight this because both sides are pretty clear what they are.

I'll tell you what a silly answer is though. Assuming hardcore gamers are "frightened and confused" by these ancient aberrations. They must cry "Oh God...! A game without purpose, plot, or depth! It's like.... I am not playing a game at all!! Help me!"