Brawl+: Hacking Competitiveness back into Brawl

[Tymon]

Sounds like another game I know, starts with M and ends with elee.

That aside, I tried this and I either did something wrong or they really fucked up aerial games. You can't short hop fair with MK more than one time or you get insane attack lag.

Falcon doesn't seem any better to me; his attacks still have very low priority. He might have better approaching ability now but he's still going to get out prioritized by anyone.

Ledge releasing is definitely a lot better now. The triple jump fix was needed and nice.

Overall, I hated the hitstun and L-cancel codes. It didn't work anything like it does in melee for me, and I played melee possibly more than I play brawl.

[jiang]

Sounds like another game I know, starts with M and ends with elee.

That aside, I tried this and I either did something wrong or they really fucked up aerial games. You can't short hop fair with MK more than one time or you get insane attack lag.

Falcon doesn't seem any better to me; his attacks still have very low priority. He might have better approaching ability now but he's still going to get out prioritized by anyone.

Ledge releasing is definitely a lot better now. The triple jump fix was needed and nice.

Overall, I hated the hitstun and L-cancel codes. It didn't work anything like it does in melee for me, and I played melee possibly more than I play brawl.

i see. there have been some reports about the hitstun not acting right.

if you have any questions let me know, ill try to help in anyway i can.

[izembo]

fox/shiek again? just go play fuckin melee its what you want

[Tsutsumiko]

fox/shiek again? just go play fuckin melee its what you want

Agreed. I'll test this out on my own, then regroup with Ryko and his crew and try it with them.

Not too thrilled I must say but I'd love it if they constantly updated this every few months to keep the meta sort of fresh.

[TheBlazed]

lol

[Mrcloudz]

HOW THE TABLES HAVE TURNED

lol button mashing spam hadoken choose ryu only lol

why are you trolling my thread when i explicitly said that i don't want to deal with you dufus-folk?

and yes i am quite familiar with competitive level street fighter. it appeals to me as much as competitive level smash appeals to you. however, the difference is i don't go around telling people how they should play so get the fuck out, mmkay?

http://img510.imageshack.us/img510/2...5465kx1iu0.jpg?

[Metah]

Comic would be a million times more accurate if it was TIGER
TIGER
TIGER
TIGER
TIGER

[Tanthalass]

Sup Jiang.

[Tsutsumiko]

After messing around with Brawl+ for a little bit, my friends and I found some somewhat strange and problematic issues.

1. Marth's Down Route of the 4th hit of Dancing Blade is absurd. On hit, Hit Stun makes it so that you can't DI out of it like you can in normal Brawl. Unless the DI is different, someone please explain.

1b. If you block the 4th down hit of Dancing Blade, the block stun makes it completely safe and a wonderful shield pressure tool. Marth can just spam Forward B strings all day it seems.

1c. The 4th Forward Hit of Dancing Blade sends the opponent flying very far, even at lower percentages. Near 100%, it seems like a guaranteed kill, tipped or not.

2. Diddy Kong's Back throw, when the opponent is near 100%, is almost a guaranteed kill due to hit stun. Only ROB, Meta, and Pit were able to recover in our testing. Wario is a maybe.

3. Fox seems to have some retarded ability to lock the opponent down via tilts, NAir, and Dair. The Hit stun is long enough for me to just combo all day. By the time they can break out, it's only really one forward Smash to kill them. Stun on Shine is also kinda long.

4. This is a minor complaint... Snake's F-Tilt loops infinitely unless they DI out of it or you end up killing them with the second F-Tilt. DIing out allows for free tech chasing/mind games. It's kinda stupid.

This is just what we got out of playing it for 20~30 minutes. No sir, I don't like it.

[jiang]

what codeset were you using?

oh and.. welcome to competitive smash bros lolololol

[Tsutsumiko]

what codeset were you using?

oh and.. welcome to competitive smash bros lolololol

Yes. Well see here's the thing, this was all fine when I played Melee but I got tired of bullshit like this, that's why Brawl gave me hope.

So as someone has already stated, I'll stick with Melee if I wanted this. Because at least in Melee, finger dexterity saved me there. That doesn't seem to much be the case here, because as was already stated, some things are pretty much traps and the reduced time to react to things kinda sucks. (Sidestep to a grab with Diddy causing like insta death is stupid. At least melee grab setups required a combo that took precision afterwards)

Also, code set is the default set from the link YOU posted good sir.

Lastly, inb4 lol n00b. I'll admit I wasn't a great Melee player but hey I probably played against M2K once or twice before half the people in the US even knew who the hell he was. If I was at least able to hang with Ryoko back when I actually still cared about Melee, that's fine enough with me and has been for other people. Don't bother trying to find me on Smash Boards either. I just lurk. Never post because I find the demeanor there ... to leave a bad taste in my mouth. And that's putting it nicely.

[jiang]

so you've never played smash64 it seems

man, i wish they didn't remove combos from brawl. it really spoiled people's perception of smash bros :/ oh well

[AoE]

So you're not here to cause trouble but if anyone says anything critical about Brawl+, you pretty much say something short of saying that they must've not been able to do this or play this way. It wouldn't say you're trolling, but you're being a bit arrogant.

Now I'm not gonna comment on the playability of Brawl+ til I find the time to visit Ryko (being that he's probably the most likely person I'd be able to try it out with besides maybe Silven) but if people are having complaints, then maybe this thing needs to be tweaked a bit more before claiming it's Brawl's blessing to better competitive play which obviously no one is gonna unanimously agree on.

[jiang]

So you're not here to cause trouble but if anyone says anything critical about Brawl+, you pretty much say something short of saying that they must've not been able to do this or play this way. It wouldn't say you're trolling, but you're being a bit arrogant.

from the posts in this thread it seems quite obvious, to me, anyway, that the people here simply do not know the basics that were in melee and smash64 (which were removed in brawl) such as the importance of SDIing attacks or simply DIing at all(i understand that people DI in brawl, but it's much, much more important in brawl+), the value of teching and pretty much anything involved with the offensive aspect of smash bros.

because of the increased hitstun, there's a lot more teching and predicting involved. you die much, much earlier, and recovering is a lot more scary. in regular brawl there was literally no hitstun, so as soon as you landed a hit, both players were pretty much put into a neutral position, and you'd have to mind game for the next hit. it was a game of tag, and only a few characters had any true combos at all. a lot of people who were familiar with melee and smash64 feel as though this disrupts the rhythm of the game, and in result, you have those 8min 3 stock matches that vanilla brawl is famous for. now whether or not you like this is entirely up to you. but some of us prefer a faster paced game. [queue then go play melee stupidity] this issue of combos coupled with the decay system which makes attacks extremely weak after repeated uses, the recover system, which makes recovering EXTREMELY easy and the hitlag, which makes the ability to DI attacks extremely easy to time, all of this together makes matches last for long, long periods of time.

when ryko said that brawl+ makes ike too strong or when tsutsumiko said that he was having a hard time with certain moves killing too early and stunning for too long (and the fact that he refers to combos as "bullshit", and that brawl would give him hope [wtf?]), that ran a buzzer in my head signifying that *maybe* they don't understand that this is a completely different experience. the people ryko is playing against don't really know how to deal with the new gameplay. don't get me wrong, ike the aerial lag reduction simply gives him a better approach, he's not OP at all. don't get me wrong, ike is a great character, and i'd say the feeling people have towards him in brawl+ is similar to how people felt towards him when we first played brawl in that he seemed really strong and awesome. but the truth is that, it's not the case. ike is probably an average character.. in fact, i'd say that in brawl+, the tier lists are A LOT more closer than in vanilla brawl, simply because every character can approach and land a few hits. brawl+ is way more balanced than melee or vanilla brawl, but still not perfect (and we are working on that now).


i understand why some people don't like brawl+, though.

brawl is so drastically different from the other two in the series, and to introduce all these kind of nerve racking combos and quickness to a newcomer, it's no wonder that they don't like brawl+'s shift of focus. the attitude is very common among people who's first smash is brawl. i honestly didn't expect anyone here to like it, and for the most part i'm right. i was just hoping i'd find one or two people that happen to be interested in it.

[Metah]

Looking a bit desperate Jiang, trying so hard to convince people that Brawl+ is superior. Why not just forget about it and go back to playing it with the people who want to play it, which doesn't seem to be anyone here.

Edit: Opps, almost forgot my "in before 'you didn't read my whole post'". Just reinforcing it.

[AoE]

from the posts in this thread it seems quite obvious, to me, anyway, that the people here simply do not know the basics that were in melee and smash64 (which were removed in brawl) such as the importance of SDIing attacks or simply DIing at all(i understand that people DI in brawl, but it's much, much more important in brawl+), the value of teching and pretty much anything involved with the offensive aspect of smash bros.

because of the increased hitstun, there's a lot more teching and predicting involved. you die much, much earlier, and recovering is a lot more scary. in regular brawl there was literally no hitstun, so as soon as you landed a hit, both players were pretty much put into a neutral position, and you'd have to mind game for the next hit. it was a game of tag, and only a few characters had any true combos at all. a lot of people who were familiar with melee and smash64 feel as though this disrupts the rhythm of the game, and in result, you have those 8min 3 stock matches that vanilla brawl is famous for. now whether or not you like this is entirely up to you. but some of us prefer a faster paced game. [queue then go play melee stupidity] this issue of combos coupled with the decay system which makes attacks extremely weak after repeated uses, the recover system, which makes recovering EXTREMELY easy and the hitlag, which makes the ability to DI attacks extremely easy to time, all of this together makes matches last for long, long periods of time.

when ryko said that brawl+ makes ike too strong or when tsutsumiko said that he was having a hard time with certain moves killing too early and stunning for too long (and the fact that he refers to combos as "bullshit", and that brawl would give him hope [wtf?]), that ran a buzzer in my head signifying that *maybe* they don't understand that this is a completely different experience. the people ryko is playing against don't really know how to deal with the new gameplay. don't get me wrong, ike the aerial lag reduction simply gives him a better approach, he's not OP at all. don't get me wrong, ike is a great character, and i'd say the feeling people have towards him in brawl+ is similar to how people felt towards him when we first played brawl in that he seemed really strong and awesome. but the truth is that, it's not the case. ike is probably an average character.. in fact, i'd say that in brawl+, the tier lists are A LOT more closer than in vanilla brawl, simply because every character can approach and land a few hits. brawl+ is way more balanced than melee or vanilla brawl, but still not perfect (and we are working on that now).


i understand why some people don't like brawl+, though.

brawl is so drastically different from the other two in the series, and to introduce all these kind of nerve racking combos and quickness to a newcomer, it's no wonder that they don't like brawl+'s shift of focus. the attitude is very common among people who's first smash is brawl. i honestly didn't expect anyone here to like it, and for the most part i'm right. i was just hoping i'd find one or two people that happen to be interested in it.

Well with that post it does make me even more curious to try it out. I played Melee competitively for a little bit but it was when I was younger and had extremely limited access to competition so I never got very good and always choked when I played at tournaments because I got too nervous (I did know some of the best players in the country though.)

Honestly though, I guess because I couldn't keep up with Melee I welcomed Brawl with open arms because it allowed me to start over and try to keep up but that's another story.

The first thing that popped in my head though after reading the OP is how do you guys intend to spread Brawl+ to all the competition? I honestly don't see everyone converting to it for the simple fact that some people are against modding their Wiis and out of those people some may happen to hold tournaments which means the likelyhood of Brawl+ being played at those tournies are slim. I know it isn't impossible and I do respect the work put into the project but to make a long story short, why am I as a player being potentially forced to learn to different versions of the same game just to stay competitive?

I'm sorta just grilling you out of pure curiosity I don't mean anything by it.

[jiang]

Looking a bit desperate Jiang, trying so hard to convince people that Brawl+ is superior. Why not just forget about it and go back to playing it with the people who want to play it, which doesn't seem to be anyone here.

Edit: Opps, almost forgot my "in before 'you didn't read my whole post'". Just reinforcing it.

k

Well with that post it does make me even more curious to try it out. I played Melee competitively for a little bit but it was when I was younger and had extremely limited access to competition so I never got very good and always choked when I played at tournaments because I got too nervous (I did know some of the best players in the country though.)

Honestly though, I guess because I couldn't keep up with Melee I welcomed Brawl with open arms because it allowed me to start over and try to keep up but that's another story.

I'm the same. I played melee, but all I did was learn how to wavedash and play my brother whenever i'd play. I never got a chance to play at any tournaments. I did however, play a friend of my brother's a few times that used falco and sheik tourney style. I was young link, and actually did ok, but of course he won most matches. haha.

When I heard about brawl slowing down, I thought it was a blessing. I never got really fast at melee, so I welcomed a slow paced game with open arms.

The first thing that popped in my head though after reading the OP is how do you guys intend to spread Brawl+ to all the competition? I honestly don't see everyone converting to it for the simple fact that some people are against modding their Wiis and out of those people some may happen to hold tournaments which means the likelyhood of Brawl+ being played at those tournies are slim. I know it isn't impossible and I do respect the work put into the project but to make a long story short, why am I as a player being potentially forced to learn to different versions of the same game just to stay competitive?

This is a common question, and the frank answer is that we aren't sure if this will take off at all. But what we've noticed is that every day we get more and more new members asking for how to install brawl+, how to get it to work, how to set their gravity settings, etc, we've even had several people post their thanks to the brawl+ crew about how we breathed life back into brawl for them. also, recently, a lot of melee pros have been taking up brawl+ and really enjoy it.

we're just runnin w/it and going as far as we can, we don't give a shit if people hate us and our project or not, cuz we're just doing this to have the most fun possible.

I'm sorta just grilling you out of pure curiosity I don't mean anything by it.

I don't mind at all. I'd actually prefer the people to ask me these kind of questions, it gets the conversation going and it lets me know that some people have some sincere interest.

[Mugmug]

Looks interesting, I'll have to mess with it.

Loved 64 and Melee a lot more than Brawl so maybe this will be up my alley.

[jiang]

Looks interesting, I'll have to mess with it.

Loved 64 and Melee a lot more than Brawl so maybe this will be up my alley.

message me on aim and i'll help you set it up if you want

[Tsutsumiko]

(and the fact that he refers to combos as "bullshit", and that brawl would give him hope [wtf?])

Because if I wanted to play a better game where baiting people with a move and then juggle/combo their ass into oblivion, I would've played Tekken.

That's kind of what I didn't like about Melee. I liked the mind games and I liked that some combos did exist but combos should exist similar to those that are currently in Brawl. The true combos that are in Brawl are situational in that they can only be used at fixed percentages (usually very low). That's fine. A game shouldn't have too many true combos, but just enough (which is more than what Brawl has) where competitive play is interesting.

A game like Virtua Fighter 5 is what comes to mind. A game where all the characters are extremely well balanced and every character can win. A game where combos do exist but are situational, require skill to execute, and only do about 20% of your opponent's life tops. The ones that do more than that can be escaped via teching or Air control. That's what I was hoping Brawl+ would bring to the table. A game where the lower tiers have their weaknesses raised, a game where some form of block stun exists so that turtles are punished rather than rewarded, and where the higher tiers have their hitboxes fixed (Snake) or their broken design choices fixed (Dedede's grab range...which might be allowed to be left alone if you're gonna fix block stun).

After talking to some people, if the Rutgers Smash crew (I don't need to go into name dropping) isn't playing it, I see no reason why I should be playing it.