Quick questions for piano players

[Woozie]

When learning a new song, do you start out by playing hands seperately then move on to hands first, or do you start out with hands first and only practice seperately on more difficult sections.

When learning a new song, do you start out close or at the tempo indicated or do you start out playing at a significantly lower tempo and speed up as you get used to it? Or do you pay more attention to accuracy and less to staying at a given consistent tempo?

Do you typically play through the entire song or large sections of a song over and over until you get it right, or do you practice small bits (like 8 measures or less) over and over until you get it right, then move on?

The reason I'm asking is because every time I have to go to a new piano teacher for any reason, the way they tell me to practice changes. I figure different people practice in different ways, but the problem is that every teacher tells me that their way is the "best" way and that it's the way most piano players practice.

Also, how long should it take to learn a given song? If it takes me three hours or more to get 8 measures of a song down correctly, does this mean the song is too difficult for me? I'm used to learning songs where 8 measures would take me an hour at most. I think I might be playing something way above my level.

I realize that the answer to these questions will vary somewhat depending on difficulty and tempo of the song, but I just want to hear some general guidelines and suggestions. And I'd like to hear any practice or sight reading tips of you have any.

Edit: Oh, and is it normal to have to look down at the keyboard when making large jumps (two octaves +)? I'm used to never looking down when playing, but then again, I rarely ever have to make large jumps like this.

Edit 2: My bad, this was originally going to be one quick question but somehow turned into like 4 bigger questions.

Edit 3: I've only been playing for about a year if that matters. I play classical almost exclusively, if that matters. The songs I've been playing recently have been playing stuff from Dan Coates "Advanced Piano Solos" or "Intermediate Piano Solos" (actually I think its called the Essential Classical Collection for Intermediate Piano or something like that. I don't remember the name but it's nearly the same level as the Dan Coates book that I have) without too much trouble. When I tried to play a few things that looked like it was on about the same level as songs from this book, I ran into a lot of difficulties.

[Ramor]

When learning a new song I'd always start out with playing both hands for about 8~ measures (or shorter/longer depending on the piece) and just play through the whole thing twice no matter how long it took me to go through it just to get a general feel for the flow of where my hands would be going at what times. Then I'd usually practice each part hands separate a couple times, once I had each hand down by itself just put them back together and only do together from there on. Worked for me, but I suppose everyone's brain works differently

[Saithorx]

When learning a new song, do you start out by playing hands seperately then move on to hands first, or do you start out with hands first and only practice seperately on more difficult sections.

It's been a long time since I took lessons, but the method I usually did was hands seperate to start off.

When learning a new song, do you start out close or at the tempo indicated or do you start out playing at a significantly lower tempo and speed up as you get used to it? Or do you pay more attention to accuracy and less to staying at a given consistent tempo?

I get through it when I get through it. I don't go at any tempo and just move on to the next note/chord when I finish the current one. After I can get through the song at a reasonable speed, I put it to about half speed and make sure I have that perfect before pushing the tempo up a bit.

Do you typically play through the entire song or large sections of a song over and over until you get it right, or do you practice small bits (like 8 measures or less) over and over until you get it right, then move on?

I was always told to play sections at a time, but I hated doing the same crap over and over. Apparently it helps in case you lose your spot to be able to pickup at random places in the song... but I seemed to get by OK

Also, how long should it take to learn a given song? If it takes me three hours or more to get 8 measures of a song down correctly, does this mean the song is too difficult for me?

Been too long to remember how long it took. I was always messing around while practicing when I was younger cause I didn't like doing it. Some people learn things more naturally then others.

I realize that the answer to these questions will vary somewhat depending on difficulty and tempo of the song, but I just want to hear some general guidelines and suggestions. And I'd like to hear any practice or sight reading tips of you have any.

I always sucked at sight reading

Edit: Oh, and is it normal to have to look down at the keyboard when making large jumps (two octaves +)? I'm used to never looking down when playing, but then again, I rarely ever have to make large jumps like this.

IMO, you should memorize the song and look down when appropriate. Big jumps are excellent times to make mistakes because you are feeling confident in your fingers.
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[Akiyama]

Well.. there are two times in my period of playing the piano that I'd have to go through. When I was first starting up (I was about 7.. 8.. I can't remember), I used to start out playing with the left hand side first since it's always been my weaker hand, then get the part down on the right hand, then move them together. Now though, I just usually go with both hands and/or play by ear.

Well I'd generally go slower when learning a new song, especially if it's something I'd never heard of before. Now, I just memorize the part of the music I'm playing, and play it typically to the tempo specified.

Whole song, both when I was younger, and now. Playing small bits helps people a lot, but in my case, I just didn't like it. I wanted to go through the entire song. That's the best way to learn something in my opinion.

It's always going to be different no matter who teaches you. I had the same teacher from 7-10, then from 10-15, and since then, I've played on my own. I'm actually teaching a female friend of mine right now as I was playing something for a group at a party, and she was like "Holy crap, can you teach me to play like that?" Yeah. I can't resist a pretty face.

Eh. Three hours is a tad long on just 8 measures of music. My lessons were only about a half hour, and I could typically get at least half of the music learned, if not more. Granted that's with the book. I generally don't follow the books anymore unless it's something like sheet music online. The song you are trying might just be too hard for you though.

I used to look down when I played and had to move a couple octaves up/down, but I don't anymore. It's like the piano is the back of my hand. It'll come in time.

I play a lot of different genres, from more current stuff like rock covers, anime music, all the way to classical. I think I've heard of the Essential Classical Collection book.. but I'm not sure. I have a ton of books stacked up elsewhere in my room. Some songs that may be the same difficulties as others may be that way for professionals. It's obviously much different from person to person.

Basically, pacing is key. Don't think you have to learn something in a certain amount of time. It's all about what makes you comfortable.

On the note of songs taking me forever, it took me about a month to learn the Third movement (Presto Agitato) of Moonlight Sonata, and I learned the First movement in like an hour or two . Granted the Third movement is motherfucking ridiculous, and if you've seen it on sheet music, you'd think someone was just throwing notes on there to fuck around with you. D: Also, I was 18 when I did this, am 22 now, so things are a little easier as I generally play an hour or two a day.

[Rahm]

I wouldn't worry too much about the tempo the first few times around, just play it enough times to get your fingers to the point where you can play as you read along. When working on a new song I normally do one hand at a time, then work on putting both of them together.

On the subject of practice time, everyone is different. Some people only need 20-30 min of practice time per day for a few days to really get the hang of some songs, others may need 60+ per day for weeks, it all depends on the person. As long as you feel like you're making progress every time you sit down, you'll eventually be able to play the song with minimal errors, or tempo issues.

[Devia]

... three hours or more to get 8 measures of a song down correctly ...

Holy shit. No. This is a recipe for discouragement.

Practice methods are very personal. We all learn differently. Teachers are not qualified to tell you what works best for you. Try all of the things that have been suggested. See what feels most comfortable and gets the best results in the shortest amount of time and don't be surprised if this varies from piece to piece depending upon the nature of the composition.

[Yuri-G]

When learning a new song, do you start out by playing hands seperately then move on to hands first, or do you start out with hands first and only practice seperately on more difficult sections.

I always start with both hands and separate the parts when I'm having a lot of difficulty. Some songs this is nearly every measure, some songs I barely have to do it at all.

When learning a new song, do you start out close or at the tempo indicated or do you start out playing at a significantly lower tempo and speed up as you get used to it? Or do you pay more attention to accuracy and less to staying at a given consistent tempo?

For fast songs, I play them slow. For slow songs, unless it's really difficult, I play at the regular tempo. I also slow it down for slow songs if they are really hard or have very complicated chords. For example, I'm learning Clair de Lune right now, and there's no point in slowing it down, except for parts that I have a ton of difficulty with. However, when I feel like working on Chopin's Etude No 1 Op 12 in C Major, I play it at about 1/3 the regular speed, if that, because that song is one hell of a bitch to play at the right tempo. Actually, I could say that about most of Chopin's work, lol. He's an asshole But I love him.

Do you typically play through the entire song or large sections of a song over and over until you get it right, or do you practice small bits (like 8 measures or less) over and over until you get it right, then move on?

Unless the song is very easy, I generally practice one phrase or passage at a time. I also build onto each passage as I get it, which means I'm extremely familiar with the beginning of a piece by the time I can play the whole thing. It's kind of annoying, but if I don't do it this way, I can practice one part over and over and get it down perfect, then screw it up every time I play it in the context of the whole song.

Generally, I try to be able to play whatever I'm working on ten times in a row without a mistake before I move on, whether that's one phrase or a whole page or even the whole song. If I screw up on the 10th time, I start the count over.

I also don't pay much attention to dynamics until I can play a certain phrase or passage to perfection on a technical level. It's too hard for me to focus on making it perfect the first time through. There's plenty of time to add emotion once I can play it to perfection on a technical level.

The reason I'm asking is because every time I have to go to a new piano teacher for any reason, the way they tell me to practice changes. I figure different people practice in different ways, but the problem is that every teacher tells me that their way is the "best" way and that it's the way most piano players practice.

Also, how long should it take to learn a given song? If it takes me three hours or more to get 8 measures of a song down correctly, does this mean the song is too difficult for me? I'm used to learning songs where 8 measures would take me an hour at most. I think I might be playing something way above my level.

It's all what you're comfortable with. I don't know about you but I can usually tell when a song is extremely difficult for me and when it's just plain beyond my playing level, period. If it falls in the latter category, I let it go. If it falls in the former, however, whether I'll work on it or not depends on how bad I want to play it. For example, that Chopin Etude I mentioned above, I would place it at the very furthest I could possibly reach technically right now, but I know from trying that I will be able to get it eventually. On the other hand, Chopin's Polonaise in A Flat Major - I can't even touch the intro, my fingers just won't crawl over the keys like that.

I realize that the answer to these questions will vary somewhat depending on difficulty and tempo of the song, but I just want to hear some general guidelines and suggestions. And I'd like to hear any practice or sight reading tips of you have any.

Edit: Oh, and is it normal to have to look down at the keyboard when making large jumps (two octaves +)? I'm used to never looking down when playing, but then again, I rarely ever have to make large jumps like this.

It's normal, but try to get out of the habit. The less you have to look at the keyboard the better. But that doesn't mean you won't ever look down, I don't know anyone who can do that, especially with large jumps, especially when you're doing large jumps with your hand already spread across an octave, like a lot of Joplin's rags.

[Osede]

well.... I'm not piano player, but I'm used to learn and play electone organ, so it goes as the same way.

When learning a new song, do you start out by playing hands seperately then move on to hands first, or do you start out with hands first and only practice seperately on more difficult sections.

Don't have specfic preference for me, sometimes both hand then seperately, or sometimes just seperate hand then both hand together. Depending on the mood when I'm first look on the music sheet.

When learning a new song, do you start out close or at the tempo indicated or do you start out playing at a significantly lower tempo and speed up as you get used to it? Or do you pay more attention to accuracy and less to staying at a given consistent tempo?

Accuracy a few times, then try to play at a consistent tempo (usually slow tempo, around 60), then back to accuracy again if I can't keep my accuracy up with the tempo.

After repeat a few times, I will try at the original tempo for few times to get the feel before I going back the previuos route again.

Do you typically play through the entire song or large sections of a song over and over until you get it right, or do you practice small bits (like 8 measures or less) over and over until you get it right, then move on?

Part by part. Basically you know that the music is gonna to be divide by several part. So I will learn part 1 until much more familiar then I will move into part 2. It slows but it just my way to learn it. Everyone has the different way.

And if there is a phrase that is very difficult, usually at the very fast tempo. I will using a "loop practice" that assuming that phrase is repeating infinitely to just practice that phrase.

The reason I'm asking is because every time I have to go to a new piano teacher for any reason, the way they tell me to practice changes. I figure different people practice in different ways, but the problem is that every teacher tells me that their way is the "best" way and that it's the way most piano players practice.

I can;t comment this lol.

I have met some teacher who giving me two new song every weeks. But she just never expect I can master it in a week >.>

Also, how long should it take to learn a given song? If it takes me three hours or more to get 8 measures of a song down correctly, does this mean the song is too difficult for me? I'm used to learning songs where 8 measures would take me an hour at most. I think I might be playing something way above my level.

Usually a new fresh song takes me about a month to somewhat play good.... when the difficulties is just right about my current grade. And this is for like I only practice about 6-8hrs in a week.


Edit: A double bassist professor, François Rabbath said this before, "Nothing is difficult in music, it just need practice and time to make it." During the period I'm still attending my music lesson class, sometime we had to spend one to two month to learn a song that is 2-3 grade higher than our current grade because we have some performance. But we still make it in the end, just we won't able to do it as good as those master.

I realize that the answer to these questions will vary somewhat depending on difficulty and tempo of the song, but I just want to hear some general guidelines and suggestions. And I'd like to hear any practice or sight reading tips of you have any.

sight reading, improvise are good. But I'm never able to master these things

I can image my teacher will keep screaming at me for these part if I ever continue my electone lesson.

Edit: Oh, and is it normal to have to look down at the keyboard when making large jumps (two octaves +)? I'm used to never looking down when playing, but then again, I rarely ever have to make large jumps like this.

To me it is normal, sometimes it is more regading about how you familiar with the song to play it smoothly. As long as you are not looking on keyboard at all the time then it is fine.

[drwaffles]

Also, how long should it take to learn a given song? If it takes me three hours or more to get 8 measures of a song down correctly, does this mean the song is too difficult for me? I'm used to learning songs where 8 measures would take me an hour at most. I think I might be playing something way above my level.

Holy shit, what are you trying to learn, the Mephisto Waltz? Slow and steady wins the race, always choose pieces that suit your ability and work your way slowly up. That way you're sure to eventually reach the standard at which you can play the things you really want to, if you try to rush yourself you'll end up disappointed and might never get there. Then again I'm an insufferable hypocrite for saying that, since that's exactly what I used to do. But take it from me - rushing to play things you really want to learn that are far beyond your technical capabilities will probably kill your enthusiasm for them, making the whole process fruitless and self-defeating.

[Yuri-G]

I agree, although I still do it anyway, mostly for Chopin. That bastard is always worth the effort.

Gee can you tell I have a love affair with the man's work?

[Woozie]

3 hours/8 measures was an exaggeration. It was more like an hour and a half for 10 measures, but that's still way slower than anything else I've ever tried to learn. It's the large interval leaps in the left hand that slows me down because I can't judge my distances properly without looking down (and I don't want to look down). The song isn't really more difficult than other things I've learned, but I'm having much more trouble with leaps than ever before.

[kuronosan]

When learning a new song, do you start out by playing hands seperately then move on to hands first, or do you start out with hands first and only practice seperately on more difficult sections.

If you're playing something along the lines of a Bach piece, or any one-line piece... it's better to learn them hands separate and then slowly integrate.

When learning a new song, do you start out close or at the tempo indicated or do you start out playing at a significantly lower tempo and speed up as you get used to it? Or do you pay more attention to accuracy and less to staying at a given consistent tempo?

Always start slow and build the speed up. Especially when playing Allegro or Allegretto. Pay more attention to hitting the notes and then work on the rhythm later. Your fingers will remember what notes to hit with time.

Do you typically play through the entire song or large sections of a song over and over until you get it right, or do you practice small bits (like 8 measures or less) over and over until you get it right, then move on?

Practice in sections of measures, divided up according to the actual number of sections themselves. Never play an entire song over and over until you know the entire song. Doing so will cause you to forget what mistakes you are making. Play sections until you're comfortable, then after you've done every section, play it all at once without stopping and then remember or mark where you messed up and work on those sections.

The reason I'm asking is because every time I have to go to a new piano teacher for any reason, the way they tell me to practice changes. I figure different people practice in different ways, but the problem is that every teacher tells me that their way is the "best" way and that it's the way most piano players practice.

Any piano teacher worth more than a pile of shit will tell you no way is the best way. Make sure you're going to piano teachers with a lot of history in music theory and not just a degree in an instrument.

Also, how long should it take to learn a given song? If it takes me three hours or more to get 8 measures of a song down correctly, does this mean the song is too difficult for me? I'm used to learning songs where 8 measures would take me an hour at most. I think I might be playing something way above my level.

However long it takes to get it to sound right. Don't set deadlines for yourself. Set goals. Do 4 measures a day if that's your pace. It's better to take forever to learn a song and play it beautifully than it is to take 3 weeks to learn a song and play it like shit.

I realize that the answer to these questions will vary somewhat depending on difficulty and tempo of the song, but I just want to hear some general guidelines and suggestions. And I'd like to hear any practice or sight reading tips of you have any.

Really these general guidelines I've given you work with any song. My teacher (who, as he said, learned under a guy who learned under a guy who learned under a guy who was taught by Beethoven himself) says with chordal pieces using more than one finger per beat, you should slow the tempo down and focus on getting your fingers where they need to be. For large jumps, practice putting your hands on the previous beat, then move them to the next beat. Repeat this and do it progressively quicker until you don't need to look anymore.

Edit: Oh, and is it normal to have to look down at the keyboard when making large jumps (two octaves +)? I'm used to never looking down when playing, but then again, I rarely ever have to make large jumps like this.

Yes. It's normal when you're not comfortable. With enough practice you will barely be looking at what your fingers are doing because they really do have a memory of their own.

Edit 3: I've only been playing for about a year if that matters. I play classical almost exclusively, if that matters. The songs I've been playing recently have been playing stuff from Dan Coates "Advanced Piano Solos" or "Intermediate Piano Solos" (actually I think its called the Essential Classical Collection for Intermediate Piano or something like that. I don't remember the name but it's nearly the same level as the Dan Coates book that I have) without too much trouble. When I tried to play a few things that looked like it was on about the same level as songs from this book, I ran into a lot of difficulties.

If you want a good finger exercise book, every pianist worth his salt will tell you to buy Hannon's Exercises. It is the best book for finger training there is. Lastly, what style you play doesn't matter. Just because Ray Charles was a stride pianist doesn't mean he was the be-all end-all. A truely good pianist speaks with the sounds he makes, not the style he plays in.

I've played piano since I was 5 and I took classical lessons from about 3 years ago to October 2008. I learned more from 2-3 teachers telling me different ways to play songs than I ever did from my first teacher when I was 5 (the reason I stopped lessons was because of her) telling me the "proper" way to do it instead of the "right way for me".

Be sure to practice your scales and Hannons before you attempt any new songs. It will warm up your fingers and get them into the groove of the keys. Think of it like stretching your muscles before you run. You'll get much more out of it if you stretch first, right? You get cramps and all sorts of negative benefits if you don't.

Take care of your fingers. Mine span about an octave an a half from thumb to pinky. If yours don't stretch that far, an exercise I developed to help stretch out the tendons and ligaments is really easy to do:

1) Take your palms, open your fingers, and face the palms towards each other (pretend like you're trying to make electricity between them).

2) rotate your palms 90 degrees in opposite directions.

3) Lock your thumbs to the corresponding pinky fingers.

4) Push down with your fingers until you feel a stretch. Don't push too hard at first.

5) Pull out the opposite direction as well to work both sides.

6) Switch. Repeat steps 2-5.

Do this for about 5 minutes a day and over time you'll notice your fingerspan being much longer than it was before.

This is really good for songs like Chopin or Bach where the span requires you to have a longer reach in order to hit all of the notes... it also makes girls swoon when you show them how wide your hand can stretch.

Anyways, that's all. I'd love to hear some recordings of your playing some time.

[Woozie]

I have the hanon books, but I keep hearing way too many varying opinions on the usefulness of hanon. People who like hanon REALLY like hanon, but people who don't say it's a huge waste of time and is potentially damaging. Even on wikipedia there's a huge article on criticism of hanon. But on the other hand, my trills 4/5 are so weak (and a song I have requires a trill with those fingers) and I'm sure hanon probably has an exercise for that somewhere in the book, so maybe I should be doing those.

Also, I'll have recordings of my playing in like a year or so, when I finally buy some decent microphones. Good large diaphragm condenser mikes are a few hundred dollars each (and I'll need two), plus the cost of preamps, etc.....it's going to take a while to afford, but I do plan to eventually record.

[kuronosan]

I have tons of friends who are music majors and are in the music business and they all use Hannon. I guess some people just don't like it... but if you have weak fingering Hannon will really help your timing and your finger strength.

I saw a definite improvement when I did it.

As far as your trills go... the best thing to do is just practice with your fingers. Thumb and index are the easiest fingers to do them with.

Honestly some of the best songs with Trills are probably written by Chopin, Beethoven, Bach, etc. All of those types of songs have many trills (specifically Beethoven and Bach). Most of Bach's preludes have trills. Those are the ones that have one part per hand and very rarely do any of them have any chords.

[rithridan]

Are there any online resources that are free? I never really learned how to play and am having a real tough time to play with both hands at the same time. I wonder if theres any basic tricks I should learn. I don't actually play on a piano though, I just got a (midi)keyboard and I figured its the same thing

The only thing I've really tried playing was the first few measures of Eternity (intro of FFX-2). It's nothing fast or extremely hard when I play it one hand at a time but when I do both at the same time it systematicly dismantles my nerve system and my hands start bursting out in tears crying "whyyyyyy!!~"

[edit] Oh and I can play the first few measures of ghosts & goblins from c64

[Woozie]

Are there any online resources that are free? I never really learned how to play and am having a real tough time to play with both hands at the same time. I wonder if theres any basic tricks I should learn. I don't actually play on a piano though, I just got a (midi)keyboard and I figured its the same thing

The only thing I've really tried playing was the first few measures of Eternity (intro of FFX-2). It's nothing fast or extremely hard when I play it one hand at a time but when I do both at the same time it systematicly dismantles my nerve system and my hands start bursting out in tears crying "whyyyyyy!!~"

[edit] Oh and I can play the first few measures of ghosts & goblins from c64

There are tons of resources online.

One thing you can do is torrent some of those "how to play piano" software programs. Those will get you through the beginning stages (learning to read music and the basics of posture and technique, etc).

I just googled Introduction to Reading Music

If you already know how to read music, then what you should be doing is finding really basic piano sheet music and playing them.

Free Piano Music!

Start out on the beginner levels until you get used to playing with two hands at the same time. If you can read music and play basic 1 hand songs, then you should also be able to play this

http://www.gmajormusictheory.org/Fre...evel1/1Ode.pdf

Which is two handed. For me, once I learned just one song with two hands, playing with two hands went from impossible to incredibly easy. Trust me, it's a lot easier to get used to than you probably think it is. Find a few easy songs from this site with two hands, learn them (play the song as slow as you need to. The important thing is that you're used to doing different things with both hands) and you'll be used to two hands in no time.

Wikipedia is a decent source for music terminology.

Glossary of musical terminology - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There's tons of piano websites and forums out there that you can find just by using google. There are also some piano drills and exercises that you can benefit from.

eMusicTheory.com practice

Edit: learn your scales if you don't know them

http://www.robertkelleyphd.com/scalfing.htm

[Yuri-G]

Scales and chords are sex, especially if you want to ever write songs. It's pretty much impossible to write music without knowledge of theory, although some geniuses do figure out theory on their own, they're still using it.

Scales are also extremely handy for training your fingers to do runs, especially the parts where your fingers have to cross over.

I'm curious to read this article about the downsides of Hanon, I'd never heard anything like that. I've always loved him, specifically because of shit like the 4/5 trill, I can't even do one these days with how out of shape my hands are. I hate people who can do 4/5 trills beautifully, fuckers. I also hate people with more than a 9-key stretch, lucky bastards.

By the way, this may seem like common sense but I never knew it: Don't ever buy sheet music unless you have to. Check out your local library if you can, if you're in a small town you might not have any luck but in any big city your library should have a shit-ton of sheet music. All the books I could possibly want, I've found. Then you're simply a photocopy away from free sheet music. There are lots of sites online that offer free sheet music too, but I've found most of them to be a huge pain to use, as far as classical music goes.

And if you're a squaresoft geek... http://www.google.com/interstitial?u....ffshrine.org/

Open at your own risk, google says it's no longer safe although apparently the site owner says he fixed the problems. It has so much FF sheet music you'll shit your pants.

[Woozie]

By the way, this may seem like common sense but I never knew it: Don't ever buy sheet music unless you have to. Check out your local library if you can, if you're in a small town you might not have any luck but in any big city your library should have a shit-ton of sheet music. All the books I could possibly want, I've found. Then you're simply a photocopy away from free sheet music. There are lots of sites online that offer free sheet music too, but I've found most of them to be a huge pain to use, as far as classical music goes.

I made this same mistake when I was first learning. I bought a bunch of sheet music and method books and such, then went to the library one day and found an entire wall of the library dedicated to sheet music at all levels. Then I went to my schools library and found tons of method books. I felt so stupid.

You're right, most classical music websites are annoying for some reason or another, but there is one that I do like.

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