LM-17

[Sorantia]

I recall that several people got banned for actually doing that.

[Deuce]

In a legal sense, it is illegal to use in FFXI. sure, that's true, but it doesn't give you gil, it doesn't give you items. Only real "cheat" to it is the TP plugin, because originally there was no other way to see other player's TP. Most other plugins only enhances what you could've done. (IE Distance, recast, timer, etc.)

Exploiting a game glitch to obtain gears and items, on the other hand, is a very different ballpark than windower. You are circumventing game measure to obtain gears. THAT is cheating.

Edit: And for the record. If I get banned, I'll probably not playing FFXI again. Leveling to 75, for the first time, is just too much trouble to ever do again. Maybe not for other people, for myself, definitely. Especially on a job like THF (which was my first to 75). If any, I'd probably see it as a reason to be free from the game.

I kind of disagree a little. TP plugin is definitely not the only real cheat imo. Light luggage for instance is really just a simple form of a Lot Bot because it enables you to lot items in a treasure pool without even looking at the treasure pool itself.

Precognition is also another plugin that I believe stretches the boundraies between not a cheat and a cheat. The fact that it can show you when your shadows will go down in my mind is definitely a cheat.

Also, the Auto Exec plugin can fit under this category also because it also pretty much serves as a bot. Yeah it's intention are mainly harmless, but still the way it functions is pretty much functioning like a normal bot.

[Rainesong]

In a legal sense, it is illegal to use in FFXI. sure, that's true, but it doesn't give you gil, it doesn't give you items. Only real "cheat" to it is the TP plugin, because originally there was no other way to see other player's TP. Most other plugins only enhances what you could've done. (IE Distance, recast, timer, etc.)

Exploiting a game glitch to obtain gears and items, on the other hand, is a very different ballpark than windower. You are circumventing game measure to obtain gears. THAT is cheating.

Edit: And for the record. If I get banned, I'll probably not playing FFXI again. Leveling to 75, for the first time, is just too much trouble to ever do again. Maybe not for other people, for myself, definitely. Especially on a job like THF (which was my first to 75). If any, I'd probably see it as a reason to be free from the game.

well let me state for the record that i never claimed windower is worse than dup'ing or even that it is as bad, i just haven't yet seen a solid argument showing that dup'ing is worse.

the dup'ing trick clearly circumvents the normal way SE intends for us to get gear. it brings more items onto the server at any point at which the exploit is utilized. windower, on the other hand, makes it easier to obtain an item in the first place. for example, distance makes certain kiting battles much easier. also, something like fillmode is clearly a big cheat associated with windower that again, makes it easier to obtain certain items. one could argue that windower is more of a cure for laziness, but i'm not so sure i agree with that argument.

one thing i've also noticed is that the more people who use the dup'ing trick the worse it is, while the more people who use windower, in a sense the better it is. clearly if everyone starting dup'ing things left in right, it would have a HUGE effect on the economy that SE does not intend. while, if everyone used windower we'd all be on the same playing field and it wouldn't matter as much.

as a final point i'd like to mention that you demonstrated that using the dup trick is cheating, and i agree with you 100%, but you did not demonstrate how using windower is not cheating.

[Deuce]

I think you can acknowledge this is a different era of FFXI in regards to GMs, STF, and policies than the one when JPs exploited tav npc

Yeah it definitely is, SE is doing a great job compared to a year ago or more. However, there are still several things SE needs to do and that mainly deals with the use of 3rd party software. There are a crap ton of loopholes it's actually quite depressing.

[Sorantia]

I kind of disagree a little. TP plugin is definitely not the only real cheat imo. Light luggage for instance is really just a simple form of a Lot Bot because it enables you to lot items in a treasure pool without even looking at the treasure pool itself.

Precognition is also another plugin that I believe stretches the boundraies between not a cheat and a cheat. The fact that it can show you when your shadows will go down in my mind is definitely a cheat.

Also, the Auto Exec plugin can fit under this category also because it also pretty much serves as a bot. Yeah it's intention are mainly harmless, but still the way it functions is pretty much functioning like a normal bot.

Touche on those plugins, I couldn't remember them right now, hehe.

But these are just sort of things that makes FFXI much more convenient to make game play easier, because SE just couldn't be arsed to add it in themselves. Even though the biggest losers are those that play the consoles (Ps2 and Xbox 360), because they can't even benefit the convenient that windower provides.

TP Party just comes to my mind first time because that plugin was actually brought up by STF several months ago in their report.

But you have to admit that FFXI, especially for PC users, are hardly bearable for most players. Face it, most of us play FFXI more than 5 hours a day, and I'm sure a lot of us would like to be able to use messenger, browse web, look up info, etc, etc. IF SE were able to start tracking windower users, and starts banning them, there is no denying the fact that this would be a huge impact. I think SE probably realize that and may not even do anything, but then again, I'm probably gonna end up eating my own words, should it happen otherwise.

as a final point i'd like to mention that you demonstrated that using the dup trick is cheating, and i agree with you 100%, but you did not demonstrate how using windower is not cheating.

The meaning of the word cheating, can be relative. For example, I see as abusing a bug to gain items as cheating, yet I don't see using windower as cheating, despite the fact that it is most certainly illegal, because I don't get any game benefit through windower, (IE, Gil, armor, etc.) Windower, does nothing, to circumvent that said gameplay, maybe with the exception of the plugins, but that's however you want to look at it.

[Zumi]

Getting a mule through all 3 promys would of been hell back then. They were hard enough with 6 real players. Thats why I think most people that did the tav glitch got their mains banned.

[Sorantia]

Yeah it definitely is, SE is doing a great job compared to a year ago or more. However, there are still several things SE needs to do and that mainly deals with the use of 3rd party software. There are a crap ton of loopholes it's actually quite depressing.

I would like SE to deal with that too. SE would have to be morons to just bancake every players that use windowers. SE should consider saying "what's okay to use" and "what's not okay to use." but of course that's just wistful thinking. All they will likely say is "Lol we gave you windower. use THAT." but that's just a crappy piece of junk.

[Deuce]

Touche on those plugins, I couldn't remember them right now, hehe.

But these are just sort of things that makes FFXI much more convenient to make game play easier, because SE just couldn't be arsed to add it in themselves. Even though the biggest losers are those that play the consoles (Ps2 and Xbox 360), because they can't even benefit the convenient that windower provides.

TP Party just comes to my mind first time because that plugin was actually brought up by STF several months ago in their report.

But you have to admit that FFXI, especially for PC users, are hardly bearable for most players. Face it, most of us play FFXI more than 5 hours a day, and I'm sure a lot of us would like to be able to use messenger, browse web, look up info, etc, etc. IF SE were able to start tracking windower users, and starts banning them, there is no denying the fact that this would be a huge impact. I think SE probably realize that and may not even do anything, but then again, I'm probably gonna end up eating my own words, should it happen otherwise.

As someone who started out on PS2 and did so for maybe I think 4 years of playing I take offense to that! Haha kidding.

I never thought of windower as being bad, but that may have been due to ignorance more than anything. When I did start playing on PC you bet I used windower. Not being able to do anything while waiting for events to start, NMs to pop, or party invites would've made me go insane. A lot of the stuff that comes with windower imo should've been in the game in the first place or at least the options for it should've been available, however, lately I haven't liked the direction that the devs have been taking Windower in as far as its purpose. And really it's just due to a few of the plugins I feel that have gone a little too far.

[Rainesong]

The meaning of the word cheating, can be relative. For example, I see as abusing a bug to gain items as cheating, yet I don't see using windower as cheating, despite the fact that it is most certainly illegal, because I don't get any game benefit through windower, (IE, Gil, armor, etc.) Windower, does nothing, to circumvent that said gameplay, maybe with the exception of the plugins, but that's however you want to look at it.

well all i can say is you're using a very convenient definition of the word "cheating" that suits you.
from dictionary.com:

5. to violate rules or regulations

[Sorantia]

As someone who started out on PS2 and did so for maybe I think 4 years of playing I take offense to that! Haha kidding.

I never thought of windower as being bad, but that may have been due to ignorance more than anything. When I did start playing on PC you bet I used windower. Not being able to do anything while waiting for events to start, NMs to pop, or party invites would've made me go insane. A lot of the stuff that comes with windower imo should've been in the game in the first place or at least the options for it should've been available, however, lately I haven't liked the direction that the devs have been taking Windower in as far as its purpose. And really it's just due to a few of the plugins I feel that have gone a little too far.

You're right about that. When it first started, all it had was Distance and TP plugins. then came recast, then came yarnball, and now we have all sorts of goodies. ApRadar is the best example of "going too far". When I first started using it, first few weeks, I couldn't help but question whether this was a good idea or not. You should see my surprise when I discovered what it can do unlocked. Still it's a great tool.

well all i can say is you're using a very convenient definition of the word "cheating" that suits you.
from dictionary.com:

5. to violate rules or regulations

To each their own. It's probably really cheating, but eh, I have my personal views. Let's say SE finally starts detecting windower. If that time comes I'll probably just be done with the game for good.

[Shinsei]

I honestly don't even agree with Fill mode and some other plugins allowed from Windower. I don't mind the extra macro lines, TParty, Recast, and Distance, but I have to admit with the others that Lightluggage, fill mode are really crossing the line a bit. Seeing someone lot something while they're dead threw me off a bit.

I've personally only ran TParty(I actually don't even use it anymore lol) and recast as far as plug-ins goes. Tried out distance a few times then stopped, still preferred to just rely on estimation. Don't know if it's because I used to be a die hard FPSer (still am) or not, that I kinda prefer relying on my senses on telling me how far I am from my target or not but that was my own choice lol.

Someone got at me before saying "Wtf you don't use distance?". To me it's whatever, I really only got Windower just for the extra macro lines and Recast. If windower goes, then I guess I'll just have to make 1-4 extra macros per job now~. I started using windower years ago and it was a pretty "harmless" program so to speak. Now they start developing more plug-ins that are kinda crossing the line a bit which I personally don't use.

I don't know why this is in my head but, didn't SE at one point talked about the unofficial windower before? I don't know if it was an interview or at one of the fan festivals but I remember SE talking about they are aware Windower exists but they claimed they didn't find anything from it too harmful but if they did they would take action against it?

Can anyone confirm this or am I just too tired right now and sleep is messing up my train of thought?

[Sorantia]

Actually, as I said few posts ago, Special Task Force did mention, indirectly, of People using TP Party, and said that it is very illegal. Let me see if I can find that article.

[Deuce]

I honestly don't even agree with Fill mode and some other plugins allowed from Windower. I don't mind the extra macro lines, TParty, Recast, and Distance, but I have to admit with the others that Lightluggage, fill mode are really crossing the line a bit. Seeing someone lot something while they're dead threw me off a bit.

I've personally only ran TParty(I actually don't even use it anymore lol) and recast as far as plug-ins goes. Tried out distance a few times then stopped, still preferred to just rely on estimation. Don't know if it's because I used to be a die hard FPSer (still am) or not, that I kinda prefer relying on my senses on telling me how far I am from my target or not but that was my own choice lol.

Someone got at me before saying "Wtf you don't use distance?". To me it's whatever, I really only got Windower just for the extra macro lines and Recast. If windower goes, then I guess I'll just have to make 1-4 extra macros per job now~. I started using windower years ago and it was a pretty "harmless" program so to speak. Now they start developing more plug-ins that are kinda crossing the line a bit which I personally don't use.

I don't know why this is in my head but, didn't SE at one point talked about the unofficial windower before? I don't know if it was an interview or at one of the fan festivals but I remember SE talking about they are aware Windower exists but they claimed they didn't find anything from it too harmful but if they did they would take action against it?

Can anyone confirm this or am I just too tired right now and sleep is messing up my train of thought?

I believe they stated most of that yes. As far as why Windower has gone the way it has is most likely due to the fact that one of the original developers of it no longer is a developer for it. I might be mistaken, but I believe this to be true.

Edit: and jesus time for bed wish I could continue this discussion, but nature calls!

[Sorantia]

There it is: FINAL FANTASY XI Official Web Site

- I've seen people on the internet claiming to have changed the game's interface and then played the game. Why haven't these people's accounts been banned yet?
With only the insufficient information from a website to go on, we cannot make a judgment regarding the situation. Of course, the use of external programs displaying party members' TP or alliance members' MP is prohibited. If the Special Task Force can verify that a player has been using such programs, this evidence can be used to ban the player in question.

Also, many such unauthorized external programs have the ability to steal one's PlayOnline ID and password. To protect yourself from the possibility of unauthorized third-party access to your account, please refrain from using programs not approved by Square Enix.

[Pwn]

the best thing ever happen that jhun -thalia -whimand zoreno got ban (lol) what a happy day

[Fiye]

You should really post more often pwn. Instead of just "Haha, <name> got banned!"

[hagun]

There is no point in arguing that windower is cheating. It's against TOS. SE can ban us all for using it but SE isn't that stupid. They would lose close to 50% of their members which would be committing fiscal suicide for their FFXI division anyway. They aren't ready for that ...yet.

I don't think they will ban windower users. They would have by now. I am sure they can detect it and know of its widespread use. I bet Sage Sundi said "what a piece of shit" about SE's official windower before going back to regular windower.

EDIT: Then again people like Niki said SE won't ban people. I don't wanna make the same mistake. I just hope SE doesn't grow the balls to ban for windower.

[Destinye]

There is no point in arguing that windowed is cheating. It's against TOS. SE can ban us all for using it but SE isn't that stupid. They would lose close to 50% of their members which would committing fiscal suicide for their FFXI division anyway. They aren't ready for that ...yet. I don't think they will ban windowed users. They would have by now. I am sure they can detect it by now and know of it's widespread use. I bet Sage Sundi said "what a piece of shit" about SE's official windower before going back to regular windower.

So far the only difference I seen between the 3rd party Windower and SE's Windowed Mode was SE's windowed mode lacks plugins and Scripts that make your job "So easy to play a caveman can do it."

[Rainesong]

There is no point in arguing that windowed is cheating. It's against TOS. SE can ban us all for using it but SE isn't that stupid. They would lose close to 50% of their members which would committing fiscal suicide for their FFXI division anyway. They aren't ready for that ...yet. I don't think they will ban windowed users. They would have by now. I am sure they can detect it by now and know of it's widespread use. I bet Sage Sundi said "what a piece of shit" about SE's official windower before going back to regular windower.

well i seriously doubt SE has a practical way of cracking down on windower users efficiently. anyway, my original point was just a simple "i find it funny that so many people who say {i'm glad you got banned because you cheated} are cheating themselves."

[Fiye]

Alright. I'm going to sleep.

Continue bitching. =D