LM-17

[Rakan]

Well I agree with SE sucks at coding, however, no matter how good you are you will always have some bug in your code. Missing an exploit doesnt mean its ok to do it.

What happens when you are playing in a FPS or some shit, glitch into a wall and start killing everyone with out them having the ability to kill you? You get the hammer. Why do you think this is any diffrent? You cheated the game, you knew what you where doing was an exploit, you knew SE doesnt fuck around when it comes to bans, you still did it anyways. This isnt something that just happened randomly, you had to set this shit up.

"Wahhh QQ I lost 5 years of work" well guess who didnt? Everyone who played the way it was supposed to be played. You cant honestly turn this around and blame SE. You knew it was wrong, now this is what you get. You where hoping the situation would be "They cant arrest us all!" and well...they did. SE doesnt really care if they lost you as a customer either, after all they are the ones who banned you.

Dont get me wrong, Im not really glad people got the ban. Alot of top teir players on my server are gone. Hell this wiped half of Wopas LS. That being said, I am glad the high horse fucks got banned. You know, the people who felt like they where some type of god because they where using exploits. Maybe youll all learn a lesson from this though. You try and cheat the system, chances are youll get fucked. Blame SE for their shit programming all you want, just know if you think your going to move to anyother MMO, they will all do the same shit.

[W1z8it]

I do not in any way condone cheating (which may be hypocritical of me), I create plugins and bots for my own person enjoyment (creating them for enjoyment not using them), I don't even use the plugins or bots I create (if you don't include testing lol), I just enjoy being able to create them, if that makes sense.

[Saivan]

Dont get me wrong, Im not really glad people got the ban. Alot of top teir players on my server are gone. Hell this wiped half of Wopas LS. That being said, I am glad the high horse fucks got banned.

Agree here somewhat, but you're about 126 pages late bro.

[DancingEdge]

When the best anyone can give you is the equivalent of HAY GUISE I NO ALOT ABOUT PROGRAMMINGS AND THERES MEMLOCKS AND STUFF AND I SNIFFED SOME PACKETS OR MAYBE IT WAS GLUE BUT ANYWAY SE DOESN'T SEND BACK DATA ON YOUR LOADED .DLL FILES, DID I MENTION I HAVE A DEGREE FROM ITT TECH? ..... It's not inspiring confidence.

I mean really, you couldn't tell I was mocking you?




Also Tubbers; I thought I was pretty clear that I'm not talking about real-time detection, I'm talking about it being likely, or at least possible enough to warrant caution, that GMs, or someone at SE, can see/detect this type of stuff, when and if they choose to. In other words, you're logged in, they see you log in, they use some app or utility that pokes your game and tells it to check XYZ and report it's results back.

Which his example doesn't even remotely address, because he has no way to disprove that the game could have this functionality built in. And that's the fucking point. I could care less what happens when he's running a bot or gets himself thrown in GM jail for some tiny infraction that would never in a million years warrant a scan, when where and if the ability to scan or report back information exists.

I asked for proof that they can't detect this stuff, not proof that in one personal encounter with a GM he wasn't scanned. And not anything to do with when you load .dlls into FFXI or modify the process if it sends back info or not.

All he's provided is anecdotes about running his fish bot and getting thrown in jail, once. What on earth does that have to do with a GM having the ability to scan, or snoop, or whatever, when and if they choose, for serious infractions or suspected botting/hacking/etc?

The functionality could, in theory, exist. That's the fucking point. And nothing he's said has even remotely addressed that.

All he's done is question my ability to program... Oh noes I can't program, this means I couldn't possibly make sound and logical assumptions about SE's possible behavior based on prior incident and such. Clearly.

[Syntex]

Quit flaming each other regardless who is right its just going to add another 5 pages of bullshit to this already offtopic and long thread.

But W1z8it seems right but even if they have to activate it, you would need to be under watch to get scanned, much like you can go to a parkinglot with 500 cars, 20 will have drugs in them, which 20?

SE can't search us all, this isn't like salvage where its easy to target a specific group of users and look how long that took them, to go through to look for "I know your tp %!" phrase or looking for the other telltale signs like macro line input which for all they know be a g15 keyboard macro which is perfectly legal.

That and windower is indiscriminant(sp) its not just people who have a level 75, who has access to a specific zone, has a certain expansion ect like salvage is.

Either way banning these people is a papercut on the hand to the beast that is FFXI, whoop-de-doo 900 accounts half are gone, thats nothing. Banning windower users and dat swappers, that is the the silver bullet that will put the beast down for good.

[Tempyst]

http://img131.imageshack.us/img131/3...7829204ao8.jpg

[W1z8it]

I mean really, you couldn't tell I was mocking you?




Also Tubbers; I thought I was pretty clear that I'm not talking about real-time detection, I'm talking about it being likely, or at least possible enough to warrant caution, that GMs, or someone at SE, can see/detect this type of stuff, when and if they choose to. In other words, you're logged in, they see you log in, they use some app or utility that pokes your game and tells it to check XYZ and report it's results back.

Which his example doesn't even remotely address, because he has no way to disprove that the game could have this functionality built in. And that's the fucking point. I could care less what happens when he's running a bot or gets himself thrown in GM jail for some tiny infraction that would never in a million years warrant a scan, when where and if the ability to scan or report back information exists.

I asked for proof that they can't detect this stuff, not proof that in one personal encounter with a GM he wasn't scanned. And not anything to do with when you load .dlls into FFXI or modify the process if it sends back info or not.

All he's provided is anecdotes about running his fish bot and getting thrown in jail, once. What on earth does that have to do with a GM having the ability to scan, or snoop, or whatever, when and if they choose, for serious infractions or suspected botting/hacking/etc?

The functionality could, in theory, exist. That's the fucking point. And nothing he's said has even remotely addressed that.

All he's done is question my ability to program... Oh noes I can't program, this means I couldn't possibly make sound and logical assumptions about SE's possible behavior based on prior incident and such. Clearly.

Actually I question your ability to know such technical aspects of playonline viewer, who to believe, someone who creates bots and plugins and knows what information is sent and received, or some big mouthed biggot who knows nothing in the field whatsoever who can only throw petty swearing and insults around to put their point accross?

I'll let the other members be the judge of that lol.

[Lordwafik]

Windower is tolerated because it's crossed no significantly game-breaking lines, and because so many people use it. This isn't 1,000 players duping gear, this is the vast majority of everyone on PC, using Windower, and probably the majority of players overall, using windower, and definitely the majority of all endgame players, using windower, the comments about how devastating it would be for square to cut off their own nose to spite their face by banning windower are dead on accurate, that's the real reason we're "safe".

This is actually the exact mindset behind the people who were duping drops in salvage. "There are too many people doing it and they wouldn't ban us all because they'd have to ban too many people and they wouldn't do that" mentality.

While it's not as direct in it's ways of game breaking as salvage was, windower is something that if taken away, will take away many things that people relied on it for such as the Odin fight, certain ranges to be for NMs TP moves (Battleclad Chariot comes to mind, you have to be specifically in one spot or you're screwing your group), endless line macros, live cooldown timers, spellcast changing your gear based on spell casted instead of a macro doing it, etc.

If you really want to be clean, don't run windower, but just remember SE can ban you if they really want when one day they decide windower is something they don't like - and every time anyone logs into FFXI via the unofficial windower they are acknowledging that they are breaking the ToS every second they are in game.

[DancingEdge]

LOL, this reminds me of the self-ownage thread.

I left his misquote intact, which is why mine was incorrect. That was kinda the point, since he edited and corrected it. Leaving up evidence of his mistake, etc, etc.

For such an AWSUM programmer he can't handle quote tags.

[Rakan]

Wait has this thread become if its possible if SE could scan your files to see if you have shit running?

Yes. Yes it is. Look at Punkbuster and VAC. If SE wanted to, they could add in shit that scans for bots and hacks. With their track record for programming on the PC however, it would most likely fail and start banning people for common applications like AIM, Firefox, Fraps, or shit just explorer.exe.

[DancingEdge]

Actually I question your ability to know such technical aspects of playonline viewer, who to believe, someone who creates bots and plugins and knows what information is sent and received, or some big mouthed biggot who knows nothing in the field whatsoever who can only throw petty swearing and insults around to put their point accross?

I'll let the other members be the judge of that lol.

I ask you for evidence to support your rebuttal of the assertion that the functionality could exist and simply be unknown thusfar... you provide me anecdotes and unrelated information and question my ability to program, you then ask me for evidence to support a suspicion, skirting the issue of supporting your claim that the functionality does indeed not exist.

Judge indeed.

[Saivan]

Wait has this thread become if its possible if SE could scan your files to see if you have shit running?

Yes. Yes it is. Look at Punkbuster and VAC. If SE wanted to, they could add in shit that scans for bots and hacks.

Except it's illegal to implement programs that scan someone's PC for their processes and SE would have lawsuits out the wazoo.

[Tempyst]

I ask you for evidence to support your rebuttal of the assertion that the functionality could exist and simply be unknown thusfar... you provide me anecdotes and unrelated information and question my ability to program, you then ask me for evidence to support a suspicion, skirting the issue of supporting your claim that the functionality does indeed not exist.

Judge indeed.

sounds like someone's an english major

[W1z8it]

I ask you for evidence to support your rebuttal of the assertion that the functionality could exist and simply be unknown thusfar... you provide me anecdotes and unrelated information and question my ability to program, you then ask me for evidence to support a suspicion, skirting the issue of supporting your claim that the functionality does indeed not exist.

Judge indeed.

You're asking me to prove something that you would not be able to grasp without extensive experience in how playonline viewer sends and receives packets for plugins, I already know that they cannot receive process information from your PC in my years of experience with plugins and playonline viewer, what you have made is a dumb assumption and then argue your point until blue in the face about something based on a completely blind assumption, therefor it's up to the forum members to decide who to believe, I don't give a toss either way, but I know for a fact I'm right, where you know you're assuming.

[Rakan]

Except it's illegal to implement programs that scan someone's PC for their processes and SE would have lawsuits out the wazoo.

Shit Even Balance and Steam must be getting so many law suits!

Oh wait no they arent. SE could impliment programs much like PB and VAC. No law suits. Doesnt Blizzard allow GMs in WoW to manually look at processes running?

[Syntex]

This is actually the exact mindset behind the people who were duping drops in salvage. "There are too many people doing it and they wouldn't ban us all because they'd have to ban too many people and they wouldn't do that" mentality.

While it's not as direct in it's ways of game breaking as salvage was, windower is something that if taken away, will take away many things that people relied on it for such as the Odin fight, certain ranges to be for NMs TP moves (Battleclad Chariot comes to mind, you have to be specifically in one spot or you're screwing your group), endless line macros, live cooldown timers, spellcast changing your gear based on spell casted instead of a macro doing it, etc.

If you really want to be clean, don't run windower, but just remember SE can ban you if they really want when one day they decide windower is something they don't like - and every time anyone logs into FFXI via the unofficial windower they are acknowledging that they are breaking the ToS every second they are in game.

There is a slight difference between the 2

1) Dupe method was kept a secret for a long time, look how long SE took to fix it, and a lot of salvage goers didn't know about it until it was patched.
2) Even if someone knew about it they didn't know how to do it, you can google windower
3) windower has been around longer, SE has known about it, and .dat sawpping but has yet to take action
4) Isn't as game breaking as the dupe, most of the information is right infront of you, your just reorganizing it
5) Windower seems to be untrackable and for a company to just outright ban you they need the so called smoking gun or they cant(or wont atleast).
6) Windower because its been around so long and not been kept a dark secret by the elite few means that its been exposed for years and no one has been directly banned for using it means a LOT LOT LOT more people will be using it overall, talking probably 20% of the player base minium, SE doesn't want to ban 20% of their players that's just marketing suicide.

[Rakan]

I would go a step further and say about 90% of the PC players are using windower. How much of the total population is that, I dont know, I would guess far over 20%.

SE couldnt really ban windower. If they did it would just be to big of a ban. Most of the American market would be gone along with a decent chunk of the JP. It would be like commiting suicide in the worst way possible.

[DancingEdge]

but even if they have to activate it, you would need to be under watch to get scanned, much like you can go to a parkinglot with 500 cars, 20 will have drugs in them, which 20?

I don't disagree in the slightest.

I just happen to think that people would be better served by knowing the functionality could exist, that if they were being watched or in trouble, SE might be able to detect it, instead of being bedazzled by a few lines of code and just taking some guy's word for it when he says "Hey, look at me, I can do this and that and I know things about computers so trust me when I say you're bulletproof unless you admit using it in-game because there's no way that FFXI or anything inside of ffxi could possibly report that information back because of these anecdotes. What? No I wont provide any real evidence! Here's a picture of a packet sniffer with a pancake on it's head instead."

[Tubbers]

I left his misquote intact, which is why mine was incorrect. That was kinda the point, since he edited and corrected it. Leaving up evidence of his mistake, etc, etc.

For such an AWSUM programmer he can't handle quote tags.

Next time you want to do that, you might want to check to make sure the original is intact. In your case it is still self-ownage because it isn't clear at all who made the mistake.


To address your question about it being possible for a GM to issue an on-command scanning, well you are right this is certainly a possibility. However the simple fact that W1z8it got jailed, presumably on some suspicion of botting, and no such command was issued to him and no packets sent out which were out of the ordinary is actually good evidence to suggest this is not the case. Also, if you read my original post you would have seen that the process scanning ability in fact existed and was used. It was removed for one of many possible reasons, none of which I will bother to list. The fact that the ability for them to do an on-call scan exists, but was not utilized is even stronger evidence that it is not done.

Furthermore, it is possible to discover if such a thing (still) exists -- we have the program (namely POL.exe) at our disposal. If you are adept enough at reading and reconstructing C from assembly, it is very possible to discover if this is the case. It is far from trivial and I doubt any human being playing FFXI has the patience or the drive to do this; however, it is in fact possible.

---Bored: Has nothing to do with the actual discussion, just me showing off to feel special even though I'm not---

int Value = 0;
for (TestForDE = 0x00000004; TestForDE <= 0x000000F; TestForDE ++)
{
    TestForDE ++;
    Value += TestForDE;
}

return Value;

Bored so I'll do this for him:

Returns Value = 5+7+9+11+13+15 = 60

This is generally accomplished by moving 60 (0x3c) into a register (generally ECX) and then returning (pop an address off the stack and return to that location of the program).

[W1z8it]

I don't disagree in the slightest.

I just happen to think that people would be better served by knowing the functionality could exist, that if they were being watched or in trouble, SE might be able to detect it, instead of being bedazzled by a few lines of code and just taking some guy's word for it when he says "Hey, look at me, I can do this and that and I know things about computers so trust me when I say you're bulletproof unless you admit using it in-game because there's no way that FFXI or anything inside of ffxi could possibly report that information back because of these anecdotes. What? No I wont provide any real evidence! Here's a picture of a packet sniffer with a pancake on it's head instead."

Who would you trust to fix your car, a mechanic or a carpet salesman? Nuff said.