LM-17

[hagun]

People defending windower sound so much like those who said it was impossible to detect duplicating.

I can just see it in a Delicious Quote II thread by Temp.

[Ker]

anyone can tell if Niki and Wopa LS disbanded with the lost of their leaders?

[Okan]

• First, Punkbuster is a stand-alone application which isn't required to play any game it supports.

• Second, Punkbuster have a ToS in itself that clearly states exactly what it does which you approve when you install it.

• Third, a company cannot legally add process reading without formal information and rewriting their ToS/Contract with the user to include such an action. This since we're talking about integrity laws and reading processes outside of their own enviroment. This rewrite must also be consented by the user prior to be called in effect due to how integrity laws work (at least how it works in US and in accordance with most EU countries laws).

Can such a process be added however, yes of course it can. This function cannot be added in advance without formal information and intent about such a function and in addition SE needs your prior consent to actually run such a scan on your computer from you.

So in order to introduce this, they essentially have to legally give a formal heads up to do so. This since they try to read something outside of their own enviroment and essentially ask end-users to give up some of their own personal data to them.

Warden would like a chat with your #3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software)

[chiyio]

Heres where I believe SE's stance on Windower lies, granted I could be wrong:

SE will ban for windower provided the player in question is a complete idiot about it. Someone going aroung shouting "I USE THE UNOFFICIAL WINDOWER, LOOK AT ME I'M COOL I CAN SEE EVERYONES TP BLA BLA BLA" will most likely get busted. Provided you're hush hush about it in game and dont give them an excuse to know you're using windower, they wont do anything. We all know that people HAVE been banned for using windower, even after SE's 'official' windower came out. I must say these comments about "I cant believe SE banned half their playerbase" are absurd. According to FFXIAH, theres well over 400k active players (active since when, I dont know). My math may be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that 500 out of 400k is 0.125%.

Its pretty easy to detect who was and wasn't using any dupe glitches.

Detection method number 1:
Look for frequent Alliance break commands after parsing logs in the affected areas.

Detection method number 2:
Look for, lets say, Hikazu Hara-Ate, or any other 35, or Ancient Torque, or whatever. If three dropped in one groups run, I believe we have a cheater.

[Liquidedust]

Warden would like a chat with your #3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software)

Blizzard did a rewrite of the ToS which you had to approve when they introduced warden. Your point being?

[Shuemue]

Warden would like a chat with your #3.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warden_(software)

Legal actions have been taken up against Blizzard's RAM scanning for privacy reasons as far back as its first implementation in the World of Warcraft alpha test to watch if users were breaking their confidentiality contract. Within days of the beta test new lines were added to World of Warcraft's EULA.

'sup?

[Rakan]

They can't add something without at least giving us the time it would take to get rid of windower. If they just did it without our permission they would get into deep shit.

No, no they would not. They can add anything they would like to this game with out saying "HEY DUDE GUESS WHAT! WE CHANGED IT!". I dont know why people feel like they have this higher power over people who make the game. You dont. If they want to ban you, they can. They dont need a reason.

Also Im not talking about windower, more about bots which I thought this was about.

• First, Punkbuster is a stand-alone application which isn't required to play any game it supports.

• Second, Punkbuster have a ToS in itself that clearly states exactly what it does which you approve when you install it.

• Third, a company cannot legally add process reading without formal information and rewriting their ToS/Contract with the user to include such an action. This since we're talking about integrity laws and reading processes outside of their own enviroment. This rewrite must also be consented by the user prior to be called in effect due to how integrity laws work (at least how it works in US and in accordance with most EU countries laws).

Can such a process be added however, yes of course it can. This function cannot be added in advance without formal information and intent about such a function and in addition SE needs your prior consent to actually run such a scan on your computer from you.

So in order to introduce this, they essentially have to legally give a formal heads up to do so. This since they try to read something outside of their own enviroment and essentially ask end-users to give up some of their own personal data to them.

Once again, no they would not. Im not saying add PB, but there are many forms of PB programs out there, being used in many types of games and some of these games are MMOs.

They can change the ToS when ever the shit they would like with out telling anyone as stated in the (zomgz) ToS. But please point me to where I said that they would just add it with out telling anyone.

Im sorry, but no one playing FFXI has any higher power than the people making it and supporting it. They can change the ToS with out telling you and they can add in a search with out telling you. They change the ToS to say "by playing FFXI you accept with our terms that we will search your shit" and boom, they can search your shit. Im sure they would inform us if they changed it, but Im also sure no one would fucking read it anyways.

In the end, if SE wanted it to happen, they could. They could make it so you need to accept the new term next time you logged onto POL and stop you from playing if you do not accept them. One way or another, if they wanted it to happen it would, no matter what anyone would say.

[W1z8it]

Bots are also undetectable, excluding packet bots, those can be detectable if badly written, by sending errenous data within the packets back to the server, most bots do not use packets, they read and write only into local memory and are completely safe, unless you go afk while your bot is repeating an action and a GM calls on you, as I said earlier.

For example I've tested what happens when you kill a fish instantly, fish HP is in memory addresses 4C81F5C and 4C81F5C (both are used simultaneously for fish HP), I dynamically set the fish HP to 0 one second after catching it, no packets of data are sent back to the server at all.

[Rakan]

Bots are also undetectable, excluding packet bots, those can be detectable if badly written, by sending errenous data within the packets back to the server, most bots do not use packets, they read and write only into local memory and are completely safe, unless you go afk while your bot is repeating an action and a GM calls on you, as I said earlier.

Or you know, there is something scanning your processes and knows FISHBOTZOMGSOMUCHFISH.exe is a bot.

[Tubbers]

I think the point is that the ToS would need to change in order for them to be able to do that. So it is extremely unlikely there is something scanning your processes at this point in time.

[BRP]

People defending windower sound so much like those who said it was impossible to detect duplicating.

I can just see it in a Delicious Quote II thread by Temp.

Anyone who thought they couldn't detect duping had no idea what they were talking about. Meanwhile, windower is pretty safe.

Anyway, no a company can't just scan a computer because they feel like it. That's against the law. IE: Blizzard's situation as been quoted.

[Rakan]

No there is not. Saying its 100% impossible for there to be ever is retarded though. They could add it in when ever the hell the want to.

[W1z8it]

Or you know, there is something scanning your processes and knows FISHBOTZOMGSOMUCHFISH.exe is a bot.

For something to scan my processes, it would show the scanner in the list of processes, it does not, playonline viewer has no process scanner, that's the point.

[boogers]

I have no qualms admitting that I participated in the duping process. Our group learned about it about 2 weeks before the ninja fix (we do 3 runs a week, and I would guess the dupe trick was used six times). Personally, I got nothing from it other than a few cells one or two floors earlier than I normally would. Neither I nor anyone else in our salvage group even knew that the exploit wasn't confined to just salvage until SE announced their ninja-fixing. Even then, we only suspected that the exploit was usable elsewhere. Anyway, I got temp-banned -- and I'm completely OK with that.

My complaint, however, has to do with the seemingly arbitrary decision as to who gets perma-banned vs temp-banned. I know of people who openly admit to getting several pieces of salvage gear, and all they got was a warning email and a temp-ban (e.g. Stanislav) On the other hand, we have people in our group who got nothing out of the duped runs, with this being their first offense, and yet they are permanently removed from the game. When you talk to SE, they even explain that only those who have egregiously abused the exploit were perma-banned. My guess is these are the people who abused the duping process with the sandworms and/or even nyzul zones. SE should have a consistent method for their bannings. And yet, we have these first-time offenders being perma-banned while others who've abused the exploit for longer (e.i. more egregiously) are getting off with a slap-on-the-wrist.

I am not arguing that just because we got nothing somehow makes duping OK. What I'm pointing out is that among the accused, some are getting lighter sentences while others are getting harsh sentences for essentially the same (if not lighter) offense.

[Ker]

I thought this topic was about the people who got banned from dup not windower or bot as they have nothing to do with current situation

[BRP]

I thought this topic was about the people who got banned from dup not windower or bot as they have nothing to do with current situation

This topic is about people using analogies and unreasonable comparisons. So expect a lot of talk about windower, law, and hitler.

[Tempyst]

I KNOW A THING OR TWO ABOUT COMPUTERS

I made some word art for my mom's bakesale she says I Should be a computerp rogrammer

[Rakan]

Anyone who thought they couldn't detect duping had no idea what they were talking about. Meanwhile, windower is pretty safe.

Anyway, no a company can't just scan a computer because they feel like it. That's against the law. IE: Blizzard's situation as been quoted.

Yeah but last I checked, they havent done anything with Blizzard. Also yes the can. Almost every MP game on the PC uses PB. If it doesnt, most likly because its a Valve game running VAC.

When the terms of you playing say "You accept us scanning your prosesses by playing this game" in court what will happen is the companies big expensive lawers will say "Well judge, it was in the ToS, they accepted it. If they didnt accept this, they wouldnt be playing the game. Which you know...we own everything in it and about it. Like as in they dont own shit." and the judge slams his hammer saying "Blizzard wins because everyone is fucking retarded" and you lose.

[Rakan]

For something to scan my processes, it would show the scanner in the list of processes, it does not, playonline viewer has no process scanner, that's the point.

Very good. You pay attention.

Now back to what I was saying, if they wanted to, they could add this scanner.

[BRP]

You are making my argument for me... I don't understand what you are trying to argue. SE doesn't have that in their ToS so they can't do it.