LM-17

[W1z8it]

Very good. You pay attention.

Now back to what I was saying, if they wanted to, they could add this scanner.

Sure they could, I was just making a point to DancingEdge that they cannot currently detect bots, plugins or windower, I have never disputed the fact if they wanted to they could require you to install a process scanner or PB like program, but they would have done that long ago, the fact the game is played in 3 regions of the world, and each one has completely different laws on the subject, it would be extremely unlikely that they would bother.

[Okan]

You are making my argument for me... I don't understand what you are trying to argue. SE doesn't have that in their ToS so they can't do it.

ToS is subject to change without your notification. For all you know, it could be added the next update.

[boogers]

Very good. You pay attention.

For something to scan my processes, it would show the scanner in the list of processes, it does not, playonline viewer has no process scanner, that's the point.

Now back to what I was saying, if they wanted to, they could add this scanner.

Wrong. Legitimate programs will show up on the process list. Programs can be written so that they do not appear in the process list (i.e. many malware programs can avoid being listed in the process list).

[Rakan]

You are making my argument for me... I don't understand what you are trying to argue. SE doesn't have that in their ToS so they can't do it.

Derp

Thats why they would change it if they ever wanted to add it.

[Tubbers]

I have no qualms admitting that I participated in the duping process. Our group learned about it about 2 weeks before the ninja fix (we do 3 runs a week, and I would guess the dupe trick was used six times). Personally, I got nothing from it other than a few cells one or two floors earlier than I normally would. Neither I nor anyone else in our salvage group even knew that the exploit wasn't confined to just salvage until SE announced their ninja-fixing. Even then, we only suspected that the exploit was usable elsewhere. Anyway, I got temp-banned -- and I'm completely OK with that.

My complaint, however, has to do with the seemingly arbitrary decision as to who gets perma-banned vs temp-banned. I know of people who openly admit to getting several pieces of salvage gear, and all they got was a warning email and a temp-ban (e.g. Stanislav) On the other hand, we have people in our group who got nothing out of the duped runs, with this being their first offense, and yet they are permanently removed from the game. When you talk to SE, they even explain that only those who have egregiously abused the exploit were perma-banned. My guess is these are the people who abused the duping process with the sandworms and/or even nyzul zones. SE should have a consistent method for their bannings. And yet, we have these first-time offenders being perma-banned while others who've abused the exploit for longer (e.i. more egregiously) are getting off with a slap-on-the-wrist.

I am not arguing that just because we got nothing somehow makes duping OK. What I'm pointing out is that among the accused, some are getting lighter sentences while others are getting harsh sentences for essentially the same (if not lighter) offense.

The temp-ban vs. perma-ban was a very straightforward systematic process. SE picked a random number between 1 and 950. 1-400 = temp. 401-950 = perma.

[Rakan]

Wrong. Legitimate programs will show up on the process list. Programs can be written so that they do not appear in the process list (i.e. many malware programs can avoid being listed in the process list).

Right and most bots and hacks for games do show up. If it was that easy to avoid scanners and shit, PB and VAC would be 100% useless.

[W1z8it]

Wrong. Legitimate programs will show up on the process list. Programs can be written so that they do not appear in the process list (i.e. many malware programs can avoid being listed in the process list).

Malware is illegal, your point is invalid.

[Melios]

Some will argue "oh if the drop rate weren't so shitty people wouldn't turn to this exploit", bullshit.

So if I live in a improverished community does it give me the right to steal? "It's because I'm poor and/or the situation/lifestyle I'm living in why I decided to steal, I shouldn't be sent to jail. If my family had the money to pay the rent I wouldn't have robbed the store/old lady/someone's house/etc." It's still against the law, point blank period.....it doesn't matter the reasoning behind the crime dude lol....

That's a pretty poor analogy. A much better analogy would be someone stealing a trophy because it was awarded to someone else, or perhaps someone tampering with their school grades or an election result.

No one used this exploit for "survival" reasons; it was solely for greed (and pride).

[Tubbers]

ToS is subject to change without your notification. For all you know, it could be added the next update.

Sure, and when the next update came, you'd be able to read the new ToS before they can scan your stuff.

[boogers]

The temp-ban vs. perma-ban was a very straightforward systematic process. SE picked a random number between 1 and 950. 1-400 = temp. 401-950 = perma.

It sure seems like it, doesn't it ^^

[chiyio]

ToS is subject to change without your notification. For all you know, it could be added the next update.

Actually I'm pretty sure they'd have to mention any changes, as they do when you log on POL for the first time or by guest login

[BRP]

Here's the problem. I said this, then you said that.

If they just did it without our permission they would get into deep shit.

No, no they would not.

If they add it to the ToS and then we agreed to it then that would be us giving permission. But that means they can't do it until they ask for our permission. So, even if they add a scanner, anyone with windower is safe because they have the time to remove it. If they didn't touch the ToS and do it, they would be in big shit.

[Okan]

Sure, and when the next update came, you'd be able to read the new ToS before they can scan your stuff.

True, but do you read the entire terms of service every time you log in or there is an update? I highly doubt you do. They won't hide the changes, but they don't have to notify you of it.

[boogers]

Malware is illegal, your point is invalid.

? My point was that if people wanted to write programs (be it "legitimate" windowers or programs that exploited another program's weaknesses), they could do so and avoid detection if that was their intent, including hiding from the process list. PB wouldn't be 100% useless -- but like anti-virus software, PB and similar software is not an end-all answer to cheats and exploits.

[shaddix]

SEI provides the Game and the PlayOnline Service to you subject to this Agreement, which may be updated by SEI at any time without notice to you.

https://secure.playonline.com/suppor..._ff11user.html

[Tubbers]

True, but do you read the entire terms of service every time you log in or there is an update? I highly doubt you do. They won't hide the changes, but they don't have to notify you of it.

I read the ToS every time it changes, yes. The whole thing. And every time it changes I'm fairly certain they are required to make it show up. They did the last three times it has changed for sure.

[W1z8it]

? My point was that if people wanted to write programs (be it "legitimate" windowers or programs that exploited another program's weaknesses), they could do so and avoid detection if that was their intent, including hiding from the process list. PB wouldn't be 100% useless -- but like anti-virus software, PB and similar software is not an end-all answer to cheats and exploits.

ahh sorry I though your point was trying to invalidate what I said lolz

[Liquidedust]

ToS is subject to change without your notification. For all you know, it could be added the next update.

When it comes to reading processes, NO you cannot add it without your knowledge. If they want to change something within their own closed system YES they can add it without your consent, however applications that read systems they doesn't control and own themselves they cannot just randomly decide to scan without people's consent.

Now SE has every right to control their system, however they do not legally have the right to control other people's system or monitor them. Which is BRPs and my point, you don't need to have extensive legal knowledge to realize this.

Now my line of experise IS NOT integrity law, its copyright law, so take my words with a grain of salt. I do however know enough about integrity law to know you cannot just add it to their system without your prior consent (and have to inform you that they have changed the system).

[Tubbers]

ahh sorry I though your point was trying to invalidate what I said lolz

He meant players could write programs that aren't picked up by the scanner, not that SE's scanner wouldn't show up. I think that's what he meant anyways.

Edit: Wow I totally misread what just happened -- ignore this post!

[W1z8it]

He meant players could write programs that aren't picked up by the scanner, not that SE's scanner wouldn't show up. I think that's what he meant anyways.

Yah I got that after, I'm a bit slow lol