LM-17

[Ashira]

That wasn't an analogy lol.

Ehh... I know it wasn't one per se, but it was equating something to another experience, so in a very loose manner.... lol. Was just trying to poke a chuckle out of you.

I poked back at Yugl's analogy anyway, with his/her own quote.

[Kohan]

You mean something like the TOS? It's there for you to see whenever you want. Basically what you're suggesting is that SE should have told people they will be caught if they use the exploit. That's like saying police trying to find speeders should make themselves as visible as possible, maybe even wave flashing lights so that cars know to slow down. What's the point of trusting people to follow the rules if you have to be on their ass 24/7 in order for them to obey the rules?

This is the truth.

Allocating resources to fixing bugs is not as easy as people think. Anyone who's worked in the industry should know better. Yeah, Square-Enix left the bug in. That doesn't mean that meant, "hey! Have a blast!", and saying that the GMs provided a canned response about things "working as intended" isn't an excuse. Brace yourselves for another analogy -- you ate the forbidden fruit, now you suffer the consequences.

Pretty much everyone who used the dupe exploit and has a set of balls has already admitted to wrongdoing, there's no reason to argue as if "OMG! There was a BUG IN A GAME!" is really important.

[W1z8it]

Ehh... I know it wasn't one per se, but it was equating something to another experience, so in a very loose manner.... lol. Was just trying to poke a chuckle out of you.

I poked back at Yugl's analogy anyway, with his/her own quote.

[Mizango]

Look at Ashira! Getting her troll on, awesome.


Game recognize game.

[Ashira]

This is the truth.

Allocating resources to fixing bugs is not as easy as people think. Anyone who's worked in the industry should know better. Yeah, Square-Enix left the bug in. That doesn't mean that meant, "hey! Have a blast!", and saying that the GMs provided a canned response about things "working as intended" isn't an excuse. Brace yourselves for another analogy -- you ate the forbidden fruit, now you suffer the consequences.

Pretty much everyone who used the dupe exploit and has a set of balls has already admitted to wrongdoing, there's no reason to argue as if "OMG! There was a BUG IN A GAME!" is really important.

If a GM said things were working as intended... that's saying "that's supposed to happen." And we know how haha GMs are, but that statement should most definitely not be coming out of their mouth in this sort of situation.

If anyone actually did have a GM say that to them, I'd say they probably have the best chances to contest any of this. Typically on bug reports though, I've seen "Thanks, we'll look into it."

[Kohan]

If a GM said things were working as intended... that's saying "that's supposed to happen." And we know how haha GMs are, but that statement should most definitely not be coming out of their mouth in this sort of situation.

The players who used the exploit were, for the most part, people who understood how worthless that sort of statement was from a GM. I'm not saying that should have been the GM's default response regardless, but it doesn't excuse it.

"Oh, you mean you don't really know, you're just gonna tell me it's okay to get rid of me and cover up your unfamiliarity? Even though I know I shouldn't trust you? Okay, cool, I'll believe you this time."

So, we agree for the most part, except I don't see it as a worthwhile excuse.

[Okan]

This is the truth.

Allocating resources to fixing bugs is not as easy as people think. Anyone who's worked in the industry should know better. Yeah, Square-Enix left the bug in. That doesn't mean that meant, "hey! Have a blast!", and saying that the GMs provided a canned response about things "working as intended" isn't an excuse. Brace yourselves for another analogy -- you ate the forbidden fruit, now you suffer the consequences.

Pretty much everyone who used the dupe exploit and has a set of balls has already admitted to wrongdoing, there's no reason to argue as if "OMG! There was a BUG IN A GAME!" is really important.

I'm sorry that I don't agree. The TOS is a catch-all in my opinion. It's there to fill the gaps of what gets by. I'm not saying the issue needed an immediate fix, but an simple statement that would have taken 30 minutes tops should have been publicly issues to announce that there is a current known problem in salvage/hnm/etc, and that actions will be taken against violators.

[W1z8it]

I'm sorry that I don't agree. The TOS is a catch-all in my opinion. It's there to fill the gaps of what gets by. I'm not saying the issue needed an immediate fix, but an simple statement that would have taken 30 minutes tops should have been publicly issues to announce that there is a current known problem in salvage/hnm/etc, and that actions will be taken against violators.

Actually it's there to say FU when you cheat and contest about getting banned, and theres nothing you can do about it.

[Ashira]

The players who used the exploit were, for the most part, people who understood how worthless that sort of statement was from a GM. I'm not saying that should have been the GM's default response regardless, but it doesn't excuse it.

"Oh, you mean you don't really know, you're just gonna tell me it's okay to get rid of me and cover up your unfamiliarity? Even though I know I shouldn't trust you? Okay, cool, I'll believe you this time."

So, we agree for the most part, except I don't see it as a worthwhile excuse.

Well, precisely, I mean, we all know that yeah, GM = grain of salt. But with situations like these, the one thing you learn in any supervisory/management or customer representative position is NEVER SAY ANYTHING THEY CAN HOLD YOU TO.

In this situation, the GMs represent SE - we as the customers should be able to take for granted they know wtf they're talking about and what they say goes. We obviously know better, but under no circumstance should they take something like this and have said "It's working as intended." Because that gives the CUSTOMER wiggle room.

Not to make an analogy! But my years in retail, from sales rep to management, and working as a customer rep for a call center for a large brand and having to learn about the product etc... whenever you didn't know for sure on any question or situation, you were not supposed to conjecture, or discuss with the customer, etc... if you didn't know, you found someone to ask. If you couldn't find someone then, you'd do what you could to try and at least tell the customer you will address the issue (for me this often included getting their contact info to contact them personally myself after I *did* find the answer), without saying anything in any direction.

That is what "Thanks for the info, we'll look into it." does. "Things are working as intended as far as I know" doesn't cut it. There isn't anything wrong with a representative of a company not knowing every single freakin' thing as long as they are mostly knowledgeable about a product. When something random gets thrown at them, they damn well better be on their tiptoes with what they say.

It doesn't mean the higher ups have to honor it, obviously, but they should do their damndest to be sure they don't find themselves in that situation at all.

And for the record, no, I am not banned.

[tommygunnz]

LW has high standards for his own gear. That was his perogative. As a former linkshell member, I can attest that he never had an elitest attitude about demanding we all have +1 this or that. As long as our gear was relevant to the job we were on, skill was much more important (common sense, yeah?).

If he didn't like somebody, then he'd probably rag on this or that about unwise gear choices (like INT rings on a DRK, or something), but from my experience, he didn't really base his opinion of a person on what /check showed. So what if he was proud of the gear that he'd worked to obtain? He didn't thumb his nose at others for not having it.





Precisely.

Wasnt he a gimp ass besides his Mandau like a year ago? I could have swore he rocked like Pahluwahn legs and Chiv Chain etc etc. Wtf do you mean high standards?

[Ryko]

Seriously. So true. Having to have police forces is such a pain in the ass.

Shit I almost got trolled.

The TOS is a catch-all in my opinion

Exactly, which is why a GM shouldn't have to say a god damn thing either way.

[Kohan]

It doesn't mean the higher ups have to honor it, obviously, but they should do their damndest to be sure they don't find themselves in that situation at all.

And for the record, no, I am not banned.

I don't disagree with you on the concept of individual responsibility, considering their positions. Coincidentally, I've both worked in management and in game development (on games with online components, no less). The GMs should not say things they don't really mean, or speak with authority when they're pulling stuff out of their asses.

[mallister]

The GMs should not say things they don't really mean, or speak with authority when they're pulling stuff out of their asses.

yet they do, constantly, and they're the first and generally only developer reps any of us ever have any contact with, which makes fuck ups/mistakes all the more frustrating. ignorance and incompetance from the people that are supposed to keep the game moving along and help police it (along with the STF and bug reporting/feedback) aren't exactly confidence inspiring. this is old news though. like the saying in journalism about man biting dog, a GM with a clue would be the thing to comment on.

and no, i'm not saying people exploiting this glitch made a 'mistake' it was an exploit, plain and simple, if you did it man up and take your lumps like the rest of us.

[Kohan]

yet they do, constantly, and they're the first and generally only developer reps any of us ever have any contact with, which makes fuck ups/mistakes all the more frustrating.

GMs aren't representatives of the developers. They're just the mall cops of FFXI.

OH WHEN WILL THE ANALOGIES END

[Thorny]

I feel torn about the situation. SE should have reacted MUCH sooner --even if it was as simple as a statement openly announcing that they are aware and anyone caught exploiting the glitch will be dealt with.

It was patched within 48 hours of the first idiot making a public post on gamefaqs, they probably weren't aware of it until then.. unless you wanted them to give a warning 48 hours prior to patching it or after patching it but before the actual bans then you're expecting too much. Sure, some people probably reported it to GMs before then and there was a very old bg post that accidentally duped chariot drops(and concluded it wasn't repeatable intentionally), but what's to say the GMs reported it to a higher-up and the people in charge knew about it?

[Ryko]

GMs aren't representatives of the developers. They're just the mall cops of FFXI.

OH WHEN WILL THE ANALOGIES END

Mall cops aren't even really mall cops, they're like janitors with night sticks.

Which, if scrubs has taught me anything, would be much better if they just gave real janitors night sticks.

[Valkrish]

I enjoyed this thread to the fullest of its extent, and by watching its course i have become whole again.

=)

[Yugl]

Oh, I'd feel stupid. However trying to build your ego by banning people for your own mistake isn't really "justified". I put that in quotes because I understand they did break rules, but I still don't think they should be perma-banned.

They didn't ban them because of their own mistake, they banned them because they took advantage of someone's mistake. If people speed, it's not the car manufacturer's fault for allowing them to reach those speeds on the road, it's the individual's fault for intentionally driving at an incredibly high speed. The only part I feel was problematic, yet, unavoidable was the fact that they banned people who may have been present, but unaware of the exploit. Using the speeding example, it would be like punishing passengers in the car. However, it would be difficult, and in some cases impossible for SE to figure out which members intentionally participated and which ones were unaware of or did not want to perform the exploit. In such a case they can either ban all the members of the group and risk banning bystanders, or they can ban only those who made the alliance/separate PTs and risk letting some of the intentional exploiters avoid punishment. In the US many people tend to favor the latter scenario because people prefer to see a criminal get away than see an innocent man punished. However, considering that many similar actions taken in FFXI are done so upon a mutual basis, it's reasonable that they choose to use the first approach.

Seriously. So true. Having to have police forces is such a pain in the ass.

Especially those ones that watch you 24/7 right?

There are states that the police are required to sit in the open with their headlights on while they're on duty, so yeah ... /fail.

And that's a faulty requirement. Your point? I don't use comparisons to say "this is how it is in RL so this is how it should be in game". I use them to make an abstract idea more understandable. I don't think that law enforcement should be as transparent as some may want it to be. If it is, you can easily know when you can and cannot break the rules. However, the goal is to make people follow those rules at all times. A rule against speeding has no meaning if people can and will do it once they know they can get away with it.

No, that's there as a catch-all. I mean a statement that stated "Hi, we know you can do this certain action in Salvage and get a bonus. Don't do it, kk?"

Why should they? They know it's against the rules. They know they shouldn't do it. They did it anyways. They thought they wouldn't be punished (Which is what your message is trying to address), but they were. Don't test SE's ability to enforce rules. That's the lesson.

And why are you adding in a horrible analogy? We both know I'm not asking for flashing lights and constant ass-riding. But going with your analogy: I'm asking for those little signs that states there is a speed limit change ahead, or road construction, or a stop sign though it may be "hidden" behind the overgrown trees. You know you're supposed to stop, but you'll fight it because the sign wasn't overly visible.

They knew they were exploiting a glitch, there's no defense against that. If you see a stop sign you stop because laws say you should. If you see a glitch you report it or simply don't exploit it because the TOS says don't use exploits. You can try to fight a non-visible stop sign because there is no way for you to have know you need to stop. It's pretty obvious that there was a glitch and that the corresponding actions should have been taken. They choose to ignore that responsibility and took advantage of the glitch. In this case it's not that the stop sign wasn't visible, it's that they decided to ignore it in hopes of not being noticed.

Honestly, it doesn't matter to me if they used the glitch or not since I don't care much for Salvage and only good comes from the glitch when used in Nyzul Isle and Sandworm areas. I just think it's ridiculous that people are trying to toss responsibility onto SE when while neglecting their own responsibility in this. Claiming that they're getting banned for something SE did wrong is ridiculous because if that were the case, then anyone doing Salvage, Nyzul Isle, or Sandworm would have been banned. It took initiative on the player's part to make the duplications. The only "innocent" ones are bystanders whom were unaware that their group duplicated drops and the first ones to find out about the glitch (only if they didn't repeat it afterward).

[Ryko]

Especially those ones that watch you 24/7 right?

It wasn't 24/7, it was just when you were doing stupid fucking shit.

[Vodou]

There's little to add to Yugi's post. It sums up quite eloquently what this thread is all about.

Deleted the rest of my post. I just lost interest.