Kotaku: Hundreds Of Players Banned In Final Fantasy XI

[Kenji]

Oh no I used ventrilo and windower I should be banned like people who pos hack and dupe treasure. Damn that BG for their coverup of the salvage dupe glitch!

Hi, my name is Correction, and I like straw mans.

[Lordwafik]

Oh no I used ventrilo and windower I should be banned like people who pos hack and dupe treasure. Damn that BG for their coverup of the salvage dupe glitch!

Don't blame BG, nothing to do with them and 100% to do with me.

[Cow_k]

It's not your place to defend BG anyway. Let the mods do it if they feel like it. They're the ones who make the decisions around here, not you. (Correction and other BG zealots)

So many people are willing to bash the hell out of Square, but question one thing about BG and it's time to break out the pitchforks.

[Silenka]

Even if there were proper beta testers, no one is going to find shit like the dupe anyway unless they're REALLY lucky to stumble upon it. I think we've established by the sheer number of people who didn't know about the glitch that it was pretty damn hard to accidentally walk into and you more or less kinda had to know what was going on to notice it/produce it.

The fact that SE sat on this info for so long is really no surprise to me, they don't seem to fix bugs quickly or at all unless a) a lot of people are complaining about it (it was kept secret for the most part) or b) SE is particularly butthurt about it (see: AV fixes).
Some annoying shit, like text inconsistencies in gear, gets fixed in the next major patch, and some annoying shit (invisible blocks arrrgh) doesn't EVER get fixed. If they flip a coin to see who gets perma/temp ban, they certainly use the same method to decide which bugs to fix/leave in. -.-

SE is, generally and overall, lazy about FFXI. This is not likely to change in the near future. Expect them to take shortcuts like bans instead of bug fixes, and maybe you won't get in trouble.

[Septimus]

How are people still not getting 'we don't like being bothered by SE lawyers so we therefore don't allow details of exploits to be posted to these boards?'

BG is not answerable to anybody but the people who pay for and run the boards.

Is that you?

No? Then fuck off, Fox Mulder.

Thank you, I was beginning to wonder if anyone noticed this little point. BG has legal liability over things that are posted here. For everything that people have said about the wall of justice or magic mortar or krakening AV, no one got banned for those incidents. Duping is a whole different world that would leave us in a very difficult legal situation where Square would be able to, once again, threaten an injunction against us and get us kicked from our hosting. This does not seem like a very difficult concept to me.

You are missing the point that it was removed not because it was an exploit so much as because the mod that removed it was using the exploit and didn't want it to get out so they could continue to use it.

It's their board, they can do whatever they want with it, but lets not use that as a reason to whitewash the situation.

Could people please stop trying to disparage this linkshell for the unscrupulous actions of someone who isn't even a member of it? Any information that Wafik removed could have been replaced by another moderator or administrator if we felt it was appropriate. But it wasn't appropriate. Even if his motives were not pure, Wafik did do the right thing with information that would put the BG forums in legal jeopardy. No one in BlueGartr, the linkshell that created these forums, was banned- we did not benefit from the covering of this information in any sense other than we got to keep these forums alive. People need to get over the whole conspiracy that BG is behind all of this; we did not create duping, we did not cover up duping, we do not control the weather, we did not write the screenplay for Glitter.

It's not your place to defend BG anyway. Let the mods do it if they feel like it. They're the ones who make the decisions around here, not you. (Correction and other BG zealots)

So many people are willing to bash the hell out of Square, but question one thing about BG and it's time to break out the pitchforks.

So no one is allowed to bash Square, but it is perfectly acceptable to bash BG for not doing our jobs? No one here wrote a single line of code that is used anywhere in FFXI, no one here is a GM, no one here receives a cent from Square for the work on these forums or our wiki, Square hasn't given us so much as a penny to keep these forums going. You act like we didn't live up to our end of a contract, like there is some responsibility that we have to Square to make sure that their game is running properly. It is Square's game, not BG's; the responsibility to make sure that it is in proper working order is Square's, not BG's. Yet a bunch of people want to attack us because we didn't do what they thought was the right thing. Well you know what, boo-freakin'-hoo. If you don't like it, hit the door; our primary obligation is to keep these forums here and not shut down by Square's lawyers, not to let everyone know about all of the exploits and details about how to perform them that is out there so that Square will maybe see it and perhaps take care of it even though people have already gone through the proper channels to get it fixed.

If Square gave us a hotline to call them when we found an explot and we didn't, then we would have shirked our duties. Since no such beastie exists, I can sleep at night with our actions.

[ringthree]

Could people please stop trying to disparage this linkshell for the unscrupulous actions of someone who isn't even a member of it? Any information that Wafik removed could have been replaced by another moderator or administrator if we felt it was appropriate. But it wasn't appropriate. Even if his motives were not pure, Wafik did do the right thing with information that would put the BG forums in legal jeopardy. No one in BlueGartr, the linkshell that created these forums, was banned- we did not benefit from the covering of this information in any sense other than we got to keep these forums alive. People need to get over the whole conspiracy that BG is behind all of this; we did not create duping, we did not cover up duping, we do not control the weather, we did not write the screenplay for

I am not trying to say anything at all about the LS. Wafik did it as a mod on the forum. I believe his actions and the support of those actions by the forum mods has nothing to do with the LS.

I am on a different server, I compete with BG over absolutely nothing. The only concern I have is about the people on this forum and the actions that they took and the attitudes of those that supported a poor decision.

I already said that Wafik only violated the spirit of the law, but I do have a problem with trying to whitewash what happened by some of the mods of this forum. That has nothing to do with BG as an LS.

Sept, you are the only one that is trying to connect the issue with your LS. I am doing nothing of the sort. Some of the mods took, what I believe to be, unscrupulous actions. I am not even upset about it, but the record shouldn't be retconed after the fact. Wafik has no problem discussing the situation, I don't know why you are so defensive about the issue. Hell, a lot of people wish they could rethink the entire situation. Like I said, I hate the entire situation, and I wish it never happened.

And to clarify the situation for anyone that is confused (Correction for example, but honestly I doubt the guy can even read), Wafik was a mod of these forums, but not a member of the BG LS. If you have a problem with anything that happened on the forums, those complaints should be limited to this place and not extended to the LS. Wafik didn't even do anything against the letter of the law of BG, I just think what he did was a bad decision, but that is just my opinion. I just think the record should be clear for anyone that reads about the situation.

[The Blackrose]

People need to get over the whole conspiracy that BG is behind all of this; we did not create duping, we did not cover up duping, we do not control the weather, we did not write the screenplay for Glitter.

Careful, they may try to pin Gigli on you next.

[Liseth]

ohgodglitter...

[Xno Kappa]

And that's exactly why I think certain people in this thread have the most contradicting failure of an argument. So quick to exonerate SE of any knowledge of the exploit even if they received information of it through direct lines, yet take up pitchforks and torches if a thread about it was deleted through outside means via BG.

[Correction]

I am done with my high horse, blah blah blah

You're bad at living up to your word.

[Kenji]

Thank you, I was beginning to wonder if anyone noticed this little point. BG has legal liability over things that are posted here. For everything that people have said about the wall of justice or magic mortar or krakening AV, no one got banned for those incidents. Duping is a whole different world that would leave us in a very difficult legal situation where Square would be able to, once again, threaten an injunction against us and get us kicked from our hosting. This does not seem like a very difficult concept to me.

Oh please. Name one forum or website that SE has sued, or gotten an injunction against, for reporting anything. Hell, they even leave RMT and bot sites alone.

The worst that would happen, is that you would be sent a letter saying, "Please take that down or don't do that anymore." There wouldbe no getting you kicked from your hosting; that would be illegal. True, you probably have a contract with your host that they can kick you off for any reason, but it's bad for business if they kick people people solely because another company told them to. That could also be grounds for a lawsuit, and no company wants to open themselves up to legal liability.

But I doubt even a letter would happen. SE knows this site, and knows the value it brings to their game; they'd be dumb as hell to try and shut it down. All you'd have to do, would be to include a message at the top: "We expose exploits and cheats for the sole purpose of bringing attention to them, so that SE can take real notice of it and get it fixed as soon as possible."

Seriously, you've posted every other damn exploit and nothing has happened, other than it getting fixed fast. Although, I do understand that doing the right thing often involves a risk.

And to make things perfectly clear, I hold SE, the players, and BG equally to blame. SE for the GM method of reporting exploits being too slow(or not getting through), the players for exploiting it, and BG for not bringing attention to the exploit. But, as I've said, I'm more than willing to shoulder some blame, too. Just let me know what the next exploit is, and I'll bring attention to it.

Of course, we don't want to bring attention to beneficial exploits, do we?

[Devek]

Actually... sites have been taken off the Internet for less.

They don't have to attack you at the host level either, they can also attack your dns.

[ringthree]

You're bad at living up to your word.

I think you have confused having an opinion with being on a high horse.

In fact, I think you have confused being on a high horse with anything that you disagree with.

In the end, you have nothing of value to say.

[Yugl]

Oh please. Name one forum or website that SE has sued, or gotten an injunction against, for reporting anything. Hell, they even leave RMT and bot sites alone.

Name one well known website that leaves posts about duplication up for everyone to see.

[Correction]

The worst that would happen, is that you would be sent a letter saying, "Please take that down or don't do that anymore." There wouldbe no getting you kicked from your hosting; that would be illegal.

Good to know you have such a good grasp of the law, your 'worst case scenario' is completely realistic. After all, no hosting site has ever received a cease and desist + request to take a site offline and actually complied, because that's against the law right?

Oh wait. It isn't. And it's happened. A lot.

Moron.

[Brill Weave]

Not really going to give you shit Kenji, but let's face it. The threat of legal action from a company with the means to pursue it is a hell of a lot different than some weaboo idiot saying he's suing you for posting a phone number etc.

And in agreement with most of the above posts, this isn't SE's testing department. It's not BG's responsibility, goal, dream of dreams to find SE's screwups and then let them know about it. Fuck that shit. They have paid testers, programmers, developers whose sole job is to make sure this game works properly.

I love that you're saying the "worst that would happen" is a letter. Dood no offense, but what part of SE has ever struck you as being a group of reasonable level headed people who are genuinely concerned for the people who play their games?

[Xno Kappa]

Nice edit.

[Kenji]

Good to know you have such a good grasp of the law, your 'worst case scenario' is completely realistic. After all, no hosting site has ever received a cease and desist + request to take a site offline and actually complied, because that's against the law right?

Oh wait. It isn't. And it's happened. A lot.

Moron.

Because every company is the same, amirite?

Since you don't appear to be learned in the ways of the world, let me inform you that some companies are quick to send C&D letters. But some are willing to cut their fan sites slack, support them, and work with them; which is why I specified "SE." I see no one has come up with an instance of SE sending a C&D letter to a websites to take down information, or any other shady tactics?

It's all about knowing the attitudes of your companies. I suggest you spend some time learning about the differences between them.

And in agreement with most of the above posts, this isn't SE's testing department. It's not BG's responsibility, goal, dream of dreams to find SE's screwups and then let them know about it. Fuck that shit. They have paid testers, programmers, developers whose sole job is to make sure this game works properly.

I suggest you check the ToS again. It's been stated several times that you are, in fact, required to bring exploits to SE's attention. Every other paid MMO has the same language, and the same requirements. So, in a sense, it is your responsibility. You agree to it, everytime you click "Accept." If you don't want this responsibility, then please click "Decline" next time.

I love that you're saying the "worst that would happen" is a letter. Dood no offense, but what part of SE has ever struck you as being a group of reasonable level headed people who are genuinely concerned for the people who play their games?

I'm still waiting for someone to provide proof of a SE C&D letter. They are a long-standing company, so I'm sure someone can find something, maybe.

At any rate, as I've said, it's a matter of courage to do what's right. People have been prosecuted for revealing software flaws before, but most of the time, the flaws are fixed. Ever do business with a credit card company? A bank? Any company at all?

Then you owe part of your security to people that made flaws known in a public manner, when the company failed to show due diligence in fixing the flaw in their security software. Them doing so, forced the company to acknowledge and patch it. Feels kinda nice to sit back and let someone else take the risk to protect you, doesn't it?

[Correction]

Because every company is the same, amirite?

Since you don't appear to be learned in the ways of the world, let me inform you that some companies are quick to send C&D letters.

Sonomaa has been contacted by SE lawyers before.

Are you asking him to goad them into doing much worse than that? Because I'm pretty sure the lawyers will be happy to comply. You're basing your entire argument on the assumption that they won't. Let's see who's grasp of 'the ways of the world' is better.

BG is not here to champion your cause, so seriously, just stop.

[Antithesis]

Blue Gartr's purpose is to provide information on this game, nothing else. And it does a dam good job of it.

The only problem is that, even though it is probably the best informational forum for FFXI, SE fails to acknowledge this and take advantage of it to better their game. Instead, you got their lawyers calling Bancat for stupid shit.