[Poll] Previous Offenses & Permabans

[Artemuller]

How many times have you been banned/suspended prior to the Judgment Day bans?

2.5 years ago: Suspended once for spamming a claim macro without a "\" in aery.
Now this for less than 15 alexandrite and an Enyos Mask which I dropped day they fixed the bug.

[Kenji]

The reaction? Considered awesome by many... and just as lawlable to JPNs as everyone else. Reading their posts and stuff linked/translated here will show you pretty much the exact same sentiments.
There's no poll or anything but if you take out people who are in affected LSes or personally know people banned, the reaction would be overwhelmingly in favor of the bannings. SE "monitoring" would see that people are very, very happy as a whole. A petition on this would be--well, a massive waste of time. I was going to say "biggest ever" waste of time, but that would be exaggerating... a little.

Yeah, let's run those numbers:

500,000 people play the game...
550 people banned...
let's add another 550, to add in the sympathizers as a liberal guess...

SE: "Hey guys, should we work to please 1000 people? or work to please the other 499,000 people? I'm having trouble figuring out what's better for our financial bottom line."

[Reality]

char: reality
server: quetz

never banned, never jailed, GM'd once i believe for "verbal abuse", to some scrub who ripped off a friend of mine

with that said, these perm-bans are horse shit

[Artemuller]

Yeah, let's run those numbers:

500,000 people play the game...
550 people banned...
let's add another 550, to add in the sympathizers as a liberal guess...

SE: "Hey guys, should we work to please 1000 people? or work to please the other 499,000 people? I'm having trouble figuring out what's better for our financial bottom line."

There's too much thought on the numbers instead of thinking more on the human side. Choosing between 500k vs 500 people of course 500k is the better interest of the public. However, each individual who put in loyalty to the game deserve respect and fair trial, which wasn't what was performed on Thursday. While offenders deserve to be punished, the actual punishment carried out is just pure injustice.

[Aro]

Seriously...I stopped reading BG for the passed two days because of this shit. It's like a fucking Alla sermon in here.

I actually hate to go on Alla and read the QQ, but whenever something like this happens it's always a BG vs. Alla argument in the threads, which is always entertaining to say the least. But yeah it's really getting sickening now.

[drwaffles]

What a retarded argument - it's not like the remainder were likely to turn around and quit purely because people weren't banned for duping. And if some did, I guarantee the number would have been astronomically smaller than 550. The smart thing to do financially would've been to hand out mainly temp bans, end of story.

[Mizango]

I do agree with what you're saying about all the obscure tards crawling out of the woodwork.

This is my number one annoyance right now. It is growing exponentially with each passing day....

[Yugl]

Yeah, let's run those numbers:

500,000 people play the game...
550 people banned...
let's add another 550, to add in the sympathizers as a liberal guess...

SE: "Hey guys, should we work to please 1000 people? or work to please the other 499,000 people? I'm having trouble figuring out what's better for our financial bottom line."

You mean 1100 *

[Okan]

This is my number one annoyance right now. It is growing exponentially with each passing day....

Eh, they've always been here. It's just an attitude of "LOL I got ridill from my first Fafnir kill and you don't even have one so I'm obviously a better player than you" type mentality regardless if the other guy killed Fafnir 50 times and never saw a Ridill, is actually a career BLM and doesn't care about a Ridill, or has never even seen a Fafnir. This is the only thing that bothers me. I can't even count the amount of people that slide under the radar and get things and then think they are awesome because they have XXX item and you don't. I know for a fact that I could have worn my 60 AF and outperformed a whole lot of people healing Tiamat back 3 years ago before I quit/took a break. Not going to say that today because it's been 3 years and I've probably become really rusty.

People need to stop thinking that because they have a certain item(s) that they are better than everyone else.

Also these forums are a lot like /b/... They were never good. Always have been a pissing contest to see "who was better." It is human nature to want to be better though.

[Kenji]

There's too much thought on the numbers instead of thinking more on the human side. Choosing between 500k vs 500 people of course 500k is the better interest of the public. However, each individual who put in loyalty to the game deserve respect and fair trial, which wasn't what was performed on Thursday. While offenders deserve to be punished, the actual punishment carried out is just pure injustice.

Sorry, we live in SEville, not the USA. Please take all preconceived notions and drop them upon logging in. You are playing in a private lot, where the owners can do whatever they want with their property.

Or if you still really believe that, invite me into your house. When I start destroying your property, and you attempt to evict me, I'll just say, "I only deserve a temp ban from your hourse after a fair trial; I was loyal and deserve respect!"

What a retarded argument - it's not like the remainder were likely to turn around and quit purely because people weren't banned for duping. And if some did, I guarantee the number would have been astronomically smaller than 550. The smart thing to do financially would've been to hand out mainly temp bans, end of story.

You aren't seeing the bigger picture. Let's take your idea and run with it, though, shall we?

"Hey guys, SE only temp bans, so let's dupe and hack as we want! The worst that will happen, is that we can't play for a few days, whoopee!"

You see, rules and laws only work when the punishment is sufficiently harsh to deter the action in the first place. You can damn well be sure that the next time a duping or exploit issue arises, people will be damn careful not to do it. Sure, there will always be some who will abuse, but as a game developer, I want people to report these things to me, and not abuse them to negatively impact the game for others. It's worth it to expunge the few bad apples, so as to not ruin the bunch.

Otherwise, the next exploit may very well do something like flood the market with tons of gil, making the game damn near unplayable for everyone else, who thus quits. So, instead of losing 500 players to a ban, I lose 10k+ players due to unplayability.

Being a game developer, I need to ensure my players follow the rules, to thus ensure the game remains the level playing field I designed it to be.

The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

[W1z8it]

Should SE have given each exploiter a fair individual trial? I don't think so, that would cost them money and time, I don't really see why they should have to waste their time and money on you when you laughed at their flawed prgramming skills for an entire year.

And if they didn't ban the exploiters, everyone in the game would have been given the idea that it's ok to cheat and exploit programming bugs, because the worst that could happen would be a slapped ass.

They did the easiest cheapest solution for them, and quite rightly so {That's too bad }.

[drwaffles]

"Hey guys, SE only temp bans, so let's dupe and hack as we want! The worst that will happen, is that we can't play for a few days, whoopee!"

These threads just get more retarded every day. I'm sure that if these 500+ accounts were only temporarily suspended then everyone would immediately go out and dupe a couple of Kraken Clubs because it's evidently safe to do so, obviously it's just that simple.

[Artemuller]

Should SE have given each exploiter a fair individual trial? I don't think so, that would cost them money and time, I don't really see why they should have to waste their time and money on you when you laughed at their flawed prgramming skills for an entire year.

And if they didn't ban the exploiters, everyone in the game would have been given the idea that it's ok to cheat and exploit programming bugs, because the worst that could happen would be a slapped ass.

They did the easiest cheapest solution for them, and quite rightly so {That's too bad }.

It sounds like you're making the assumption that all who committed the action "laughed at their flawed prgramming skills for an entire year." Whereas a lot have admitted to only know this for a short time before the emergency maintenance, some who did not even gain much out of it.

To not ban the exploiters is not saying it's okay to cheat, but a re-evaluation of a more deserving punishment. Plenty of people have posted, giving better opinions how this could of been handled with justice.

[Artemuller]

These threads just get more retarded every day. I'm sure that if these 500+ accounts were only temporarily suspended then everyone would immediately go out and dupe a couple of Kraken Clubs because it's evidently safe to do so, obviously it's just that simple.

How can you be sure? If not banned but a different reasonable punishment given wouldn't it be possible a person to think twice when they have the opportunity to do it again? Not all our continuous offenders fyi.

[Artemuller]

Sorry, we live in SEville, not the USA. Please take all preconceived notions and drop them upon logging in. You are playing in a private lot, where the owners can do whatever they want with their property.

Or if you still really believe that, invite me into your house. When I start destroying your property, and you attempt to evict me, I'll just say, "I only deserve a temp ban from your hourse after a fair trial; I was loyal and deserve respect!"

destroying property is a big exaggeration or analogy I must say. My point is xi is just not a game, people have developed great friendships in here. Yes exploiters should be punished, but the actual punishment they carried out is just wrong. Please think of this issue more on the human side.

[drwaffles]

1. the people involved in the vast majority of isolated duping incidents have been banned; regardless of anyone's tired "cheating is cheating" philosophy, this situation was different as evident by the fact that literally hundreds of people thought they'd be safe.

2. it's not like there are duping tricks strewn across FFXI in the first place - even if another one did emerge later on, if SE had taken away any ill-gotten items this time around there'd be little point in trying to get away with it in the future.

[W1z8it]

It sounds like you're making the assumption that all who committed the action "laughed at their flawed prgramming skills for an entire year." Whereas a lot have admitted to only know this for a short time before the emergency maintenance, some who did not even gain much out of it.

Although I used a year as a reference (not an assumption), I don't see what difference it makes how long you were using this exploit, it's still going to cost them time (and time is money, whether it be a month, or an hour, it costs "something") to seperate those who duped over a long period than those who didn't, they did the cheapest and easiest solution, and they knew would also show an example to anyone who is caught exploiting in the future, and are quite within their rights, and I think it worked.

To not ban the exploiters is not saying it's okay to cheat, but a re-evaluation of a more deserving punishment. Plenty of people have posted, giving better opinions how this could of been handled with justice.

The only punishment that would help prevent anyone else exploiting in future, is to show an example of what will happen if you do, and that's what they did.

What else would you propose? I can't think of any other punishment that would scare anyone into not wanting to exploit in the future.

[Artemuller]

Although I used a year as a reference (not an assumption), I don't see what difference it makes how long you were using this exploit, it's still going to cost them time (and time is money, whether it be a month, or an hour, it costs "something") to seperate those who duped over a long period than those who didn't, they did the cheapest and easiest solution, and they knew would also show an example to anyone who is caught exploiting in the future, and are quite within their rights, and I think it worked.

While I understand your point on time and money, it really isn't an excuse for them to ignore details and be inconsistent in punishment.

The only punishment that would help prevent anyone else exploiting in future, is to show an example of what will happen if you do, and that's what they did.

What else would you propose? I can't think of any other punishment that would scare anyone into not wanting to exploit in the future.

This translates to me in order to solve violence you have to use violence. Is this what SE really wanted to create when they started developing the game? I propose a period of suspension + removal of items from the exploit. Many may argue this will encourage people to repeat the offense thinking at most they would just get suspended, however keep in mind this is like the first time SE has taken action on this. If a 2nd time does occur on the same individual, they asked for it and will have to bite it and accept their mistake.

[Kenji]

destroying property is a big exaggeration or analogy I must say. My point is xi is just not a game, people have developed great friendships in here. Yes exploiters should be punished, but the actual punishment they carried out is just wrong. Please think of this issue more on the human side.

Appeal from emotion, a fallacious argument.

Right or wrong holds no meaning here. The sooner you realize that, the better off you'll be. Life is not fair. SE is free to do what they want with their property. If I took an old grandfather clock of mine, set it in my driveway, and said I was gonna destroy it, and you said, "Don't, someone else could enjoy it, it's not fair;" I'd just laugh at you. Fair or not doesn't enter into it. Only what will drive a company's bottom line.

If you don't like the rules, don't play the game.

I just took a very large shit on your kitchen table. I pissed all over your book case. What are you going to do about it?

This translates to me in order to solve violence you have to use violence.

While I appreciate your idealism, your naivete needs to go. Society has laws set forth, and if you break those laws, society makes an example of you via punishment. If Society had no punishment, or very light punishment, then crime increases because the punishment is not a deterrent to crime. Seriously, if you stole something from a store, and all that happened, was that the police came by, slapped your wrist and gave you a warning... would you honestly stop stealing?

The punishment needs to be harsh, so that most of society is deterred from committing the crime. What we've seen here, is SE make examples of people. And more than a few like Kaeko have said they don't plan to do anything like this again. Sounds like SE's approach is working.

[Okan]

These threads just get more retarded every day. I'm sure that if these 500+ accounts were only temporarily suspended then everyone would immediately go out and dupe a couple of Kraken Clubs because it's evidently safe to do so, obviously it's just that simple.

I'd dupe a KC for a 3 day ban. >.> What I could do with that much money.