Bard and MAcc

[Euphoriaw]

I've always seen BRD like:

Skill (Wind/Sing) > M.acc > CHR

As far as I know, M.acc is like 0.9 skill after 200, but probably Kaeko's tests are more accurate than my info.

[Antithesis]

You have no basis for those conclusions.

Wind skill 75 cap: 225
Singing skill 75 Cap: 225

Total = 450

Merits = 16 + 16 = 32

Total = 482

(Using gear I assume most people have)

Choral Cannions +1 = 8 Wind
Choral Cuffs +1 = 10 Singing
Wind Torque = 7 Wind
Musical Earring = 5 Wind
Bard's Roundelt = 5 Singing

Total from gear = 35

Final Total = 482 + 35 = 517 Combined skill.


And where is your basis for telling me I am wrong Kap? 500+ and your in the safe zone.

[kayn]

4/8 wind merits
499 skill
70+40 chr

- FFXIAH.com

Guess I still have some work to do on my brd.

[barber2006]

Wind skill 75 cap: 225
Singing skill 75 Cap: 225

Total = 450

Merits = 16 + 16 = 32

Total = 482

(Using gear I assume most people have)

Choral Cannions +1 = 8 Wind
Choral Cuffs +1 = 10 Singing
Wind Torque = 7 Wind
Musical Earring = 5 Wind
Bard's Roundelt = 5 Singing

Total from gear = 35

Final Total = 482 + 35 = 517 Combined skill.


And where is your basis for telling me I am wrong Kap? 500+ and your in the safe zone.

Because 500 is an arbitrary number. Just because current gear brings you to 517 doesn't mean that it will give success. Or was 470 the 'safe zone' before gear/merits/etc was added? Take 517 up to Byakko's island and tell me you are in the 'safe zone'. Take 517 against the campaign ops NM's and tell me you are in the 'safe zone'.

What people are interested in knowing isn't some arbitrary number for skill or CHR that people FEEL works for them. They are interested in how CHR/skill/macc work together so optimal choices can be made. They are interested in the formula that debuffs are based on so they can make the decision on whether to buy a wind torque or a piper's torque. What many people are saying is that they believe that piper's torque will exceed the effectiveness of wind torque even if that missing two skill makes you end up at 499 instead of 501 skill. That's why people are saying that arbitrary numbers like 500 don't mean anything no matter how convenient they appear with the gear that is currently out there.

[Antithesis]

Because 500 is an arbitrary number. Just because current gear brings you to 517 doesn't mean that it will give success. Or was 470 the 'safe zone' before gear/merits/etc was added? Take 517 up to Byakko's island and tell me you are in the 'safe zone'. Take 517 against the campaign ops NM's and tell me you are in the 'safe zone'.

What people are interested in knowing isn't some arbitrary number for skill or CHR that people FEEL works for them. They are interested in how CHR/skill/macc work together so optimal choices can be made. They are interested in the formula that debuffs are based on so they can make the decision on whether to buy a wind torque or a piper's torque. What many people are saying is that they believe that piper's torque will exceed the effectiveness of wind torque even if that missing two skill makes you end up at 499 instead of 501 skill. That's why people are saying that arbitrary numbers like 500 don't mean anything no matter how convenient they appear with the gear that is currently out there.

Piper's Toruqe is superior to Wind Torque. 5 Skill and 5 CHR vs 7 Skill. It does not take someone from post-graduate school to figure out which is the better option for debuffing.

The reason I am giving you these arbitrary numbers is so you have a general idea of what I am talking about. Please tell me after the gear pieces I have just listed what else can you wear that adds + Skill? Oracle's Pigaches? Goliard Clogs easily surpass them. Astutes Cape? Situational perhaps, but Jester's Cape +1 is far more useful. Nereid Ring? If you do not have Insect, Balahrans or Omega's ring it is a nice substitue but hardly optimal for debuffing. The only piece of gear I did not list was the Singing Earring. But we all know that earring is invaluable when we actually feel like macroing out our Loq Earring ^^.

Where did you get 470 from? Choral Cannions +1, Cuffs +1, Musical Earring, Wind Torque and Bard's Roundelt have been in this game for almost more than two years. It has only been recently with the added points to spend on Magic Merits that the skill range has risen. I say this from expierience. I have gone to sky and landed Elegy on Byakko before. It is hard as hell but possible, even with my piss-poor debuffing gear (Still need a butt load of crap for my debuffing set.)

People wanting to know how Bard skills/macc/chr work exactly is fine. But I am just giving my personal opinion on this. I never said "this is how it is everything else is wrong" (Although I can see how it looks like I came off like that.) It is just from personal expiernce and from information I see on forums and such. Feel free to continue though. I love talking to people about this. The more information I learn the better.

[astura]

well just for shits and giggles looking at the 500 total skill assuming 250 in both sing/wind for our potential formula.
250 singing= 250 total macc
250 wind= 250/3=83.3 macc
assume that chr is 130 needed (mob chr of 120) and you get= 130 macc
130+250+83.3=463.3
Now assume a blm resist set 330 skill and 130 int.
330 skill=330 macc
130 int=130 macc
330+130=460

Incidentally they both happen to arrive a nice number called 460 (give or take a bit).
If this formula happens to be true (and the comparison not a coincidence) then we could just make a magic evasion index for mobs and with the formula people can judge for them selves the best way to achieve that number.

While some of us may be fanatic about brd we may not be able to dedicate the magic merits to it due to other jobs thus why finding the exact formula is helpful to us for optimizing our gear choices.

[Kainos]

Bard skills don't work exactly the same like mages. When you sing songs you are using two skills not one. Singing is the base and Wind and String build upon it. It is logical to assume Singing is more valuable than Wind or String. Kaeko's testings are solid but Singing being three times better than Wind or String is giving me some doubts.

I say 500 because that's the point that, with merits, you are beginning to reach your limit. The amount of gear left available that augments those skills is limited. So what's the next best thing after Skill? Magic Accuracy of course. Those who say CHR need to realize Bard has an innate way of increasing its CHR. Most Bard's forget they have the two CHR Etude songs which actually help tremendously. Even if there is diminishing returns it still effects the accuracy greatly.

lol idk wh anyone is disagreeing with him when hes 100% correct ^^ 500 combined skill you will any debuff on almost anything besides a few resistant NM. REGARDLESS of CHR

[Agana]

you will land any debuff with no +CHR at 500+ skill?

I'm over 500 skill and I get resisted now and then by G colibri on lullaby..

[Zosi]

lol idk wh anyone is disagreeing with him when hes 100% correct ^^ 500 combined skill you will any debuff on almost anything besides a few resistant NM. REGARDLESS of CHR

Two words, which encompass the whole purpose of this thread: prove it.

I've been an end-game BRD since early 2005, I've heard proponents of every theory related to songs and magic accuracy say precisely what you're saying, and after 4 years of that, I'm calling bullshit until you provide actual tests. Prove that 500 skill "regardless of CHR" is better than the multitude of setups people have proposed over the years. Prove that 500 skill is substantially and noticeably better than 499 skill, rather than just "oh, around 500 is good enough most of the time". Prove that both of those are true regardless of mob level or specific situation. Once you prove some of that, I'll believe you. Until then, screw off, you're no different than the other people who come in here and claim they know the secrets to landing BRD songs.

[Kainos]

you will land any debuff with no +CHR at 500+ skill?

I'm over 500 skill and I get resisted now and then by G colibri on lullaby..

dont take what i said out of context. you landed it didnt you? im just saying that chr isnt as important as people want to make it out to be. that is all

[Kainos]

Two words, which encompass the whole purpose of this thread: prove it.

I've been an end-game BRD since early 2005, I've heard proponents of every theory related to songs and magic accuracy say precisely what you're saying, and after 4 years of that, I'm calling bullshit until you provide actual tests. Prove that 500 skill "regardless of CHR" is better than the multitude of setups people have proposed over the years. Prove that 500 skill is substantially and noticeably better than 499 skill, rather than just "oh, around 500 is good enough most of the time". Prove that both of those are true regardless of mob level or specific situation. Once you prove some of that, I'll believe you. Until then, screw off, you're no different than the other people who come in here and claim they know the secrets to landing BRD songs.

lol, u mad? I am going to go out on a limb and say that your lack of understanding 500 combined skill has less to do with the fact that you have been a BRD since 2005 and more to do with you spending your magic merits of elemental/enfeeble skill as it says in your sig. I am at work now, perhaps I'll post my full thoughts later. tbh though, Antithesis G has said it well enough.

[Antithesis]

Two words, which encompass the whole purpose of this thread: prove it.

I've been an end-game BRD since early 2005, I've heard proponents of every theory related to songs and magic accuracy say precisely what you're saying, and after 4 years of that, I'm calling bullshit until you provide actual tests. Prove that 500 skill "regardless of CHR" is better than the multitude of setups people have proposed over the years. Prove that 500 skill is substantially and noticeably better than 499 skill, rather than just "oh, around 500 is good enough most of the time". Prove that both of those are true regardless of mob level or specific situation. Once you prove some of that, I'll believe you. Until then, screw off, you're no different than the other people who come in here and claim they know the secrets to landing BRD songs.

Just for the record, I don't claim to know shit. I just do my job. And use whatever resources of information I can find to do it the best I can.

[Zosi]

lol, u mad? I am going to go out on a limb and say that your lack of understanding 500 combined skill has less to do with the fact that you have been a BRD since 2005 and more to do with you spending your magic merits of elemental/enfeeble skill as it says in your sig. I am at work now, perhaps I'll post my full thoughts later. tbh though, Antithesis G has said it well enough.

No, my "lack of understanding" has more to do with you not proving any of your ideas. I have no reason to "understand" your claims, because you've provided zero proof or evidence, just assertions of your own correctness. Do tests, prove the things that I asked for in my previous post, and I'll "understand" your idea just fine. Until then, there's nothing to understand, just baseless guesses.

My own merits are in enfeebling/elemental because I actually play those jobs (RDM and BLM) more than BRD nowadays due to a glut of BRDs in my LS, and because I really don't have huge issues with landing songs on most of the mobs I come BRD to. My BRD debuff set ends up having 493 total skill without merits, and I could actually push it over 500 without merits if I got a few more pieces of gear. I'm sure that doing so would result in a slight increase in accuracy, but I have no particular reason to think that there would be some magical huge change in resist rates, which seems to be what you're claiming. Again, if you have PROOF of that claim, by all means, please post, and I'll be the first to admit that I'm wrong.

Antithesis G: That actually wasn't aimed at you, because you have the sense to label your opinions as such, rather than present them as some kind of absolute truth that everyone should accept without proof.

[Mae]

Two words, which encompass the whole purpose of this thread: prove it.

I've been an end-game BRD since early 2005, I've heard proponents of every theory related to songs and magic accuracy say precisely what you're saying, and after 4 years of that, I'm calling bullshit until you provide actual tests. Prove that 500 skill "regardless of CHR" is better than the multitude of setups people have proposed over the years. Prove that 500 skill is substantially and noticeably better than 499 skill, rather than just "oh, around 500 is good enough most of the time". Prove that both of those are true regardless of mob level or specific situation. Once you prove some of that, I'll believe you. Until then, screw off, you're no different than the other people who come in here and claim they know the secrets to landing BRD songs.

this^

Pretty sure Onion is a troll, but Anti has been spewing this same bullshit on KI BRD forums, when in fact you have no real evidence... just STFU already.

[barber2006]

Piper's Toruqe is superior to Wind Torque. 5 Skill and 5 CHR vs 7 Skill. It does not take someone from post-graduate school to figure out which is the better option for debuffing.

The reason I am giving you these arbitrary numbers is so you have a general idea of what I am talking about. Please tell me after the gear pieces I have just listed what else can you wear that adds + Skill? Oracle's Pigaches? Goliard Clogs easily surpass them.

Here is why finding out the formulas are important. Because if BRD debuffs work in the same way as elemental resists, your statement about Oracle Pigaches is only true SOME of the time.

Oracles: 5 wind skill
Golliard: 4 CHR 2 Macc

IF Brd debuffs work the same way as elemental resists (as we understand them now) then if your CHR is less than 10 greater than your targets you will get the following:

Oracles: 5 macc (or 4.5 depending on whether you believe skill gives 1 or .9 macc)
Golliard: 6 macc

However, if your CHR is more than 10 than that of your targets, the bonus from added CHR is .5 macc instead of 1. In that case you get this:

Oracles: 5 macc
Golliard: 4 macc

Then we can further complicate the situation with Kaeko's assertion that it takes 3 wind skill to give one point of macc:

oracles: 1.67 macc
golliard: 4-6 macc

From there we can continue to look at variables since during the blm testing there was a difference in macc granted depending on whether your 'base' resist rate was over or under 50% before you added any.....



People are just tired of hearing things like:

"Get to 120 CHR then add skill"
"120 CHR is the point of diminishing returns"
"Stack 500 combined skill then add macc"

Using blanket statements like that to explain the brd debuffing process does not hold any water when we are ignorant to the formulas at work. Until the magic accuracy bonus provided by skill, CHR, and macc is determined in every situation then saying 'get to such and such a number of CHR/skill/macc' is just a guess.


3 years ago I had the brds in the best NA linkshell in our servers history tell me wind skill was superior to singing skill. MOST bards believed that very thing (many if not most saying singing skill did NOTHING for debuffs) and spewed it out on messageboards as gospel. Eventually singing skill was given some credence. Then it became equally as important as wind skill. Now, it comes to light that it may very well be more important than wind skill. But check wind earring price on your AH then check singing earring price and you will see people are very slow to accept changes in their thought process. On most servers the wind earring sells for 25-50% more. Now, for the first time we have a little insight on how these debuff formulas may work and it is not time to spew out 'magic numbers' without any testing or basis.

[QQ_Amun]

Wow, got a little heated in here. Sorry I haven't been posting, I have been sick and only logging in to do LS events and slam COX Cable.

As far as any theory goes, I just don't care. Lots of people think they have the answer but nobody can back it up.

When it comes to testing this on random mobs in game it just wont work. If I don't test this on the same game day it won't be accurate and someone will point that out. Elegy recast is 24 seconds with no haste or fast cast. That means I can only get so many in before I have to stop. So why Hydra? Well on my server he is up 99% of the time. So if I go out there everyday for a week I should have all my data. Meanwhile its resistance rate base lvl etc won't change. Only issue for me is that pesky magic shield and keeping my tanks alive.

Ok I am a very well geared brd 8/8 singing and 8/8 wind, haven't gotten around to 5/5 chr yet. Here are my max numbers without etudes:

CHR Build (What I use to land elegy on hard things)

CHR 70+62
Singing 259
Wind 256

Skill Build

CHR 70+28 (4 of those are on my march instrument so 70+24)
Singing 268
Wind 275

My ffxiah

Ok so here is my issue. I have times where I couldn't land elegy at all in my CHR build. However I would land it quite easily with my terra's staff in my skill build. By the same not the opposite is true, I have been able to easily land it in my CHR build but not in my skill build. What I have decided to do for testing is:

Pick a neutral day, thinking Dark or Light...and only test on that day.

Have a base set with no + anything or equal amounts (thinking 2 CHR to 1 skill)

When testing skill I plan to test for example +20 singing followed by +20 wind. If I have to delete some merits to get it exact I might. The gear I want to use should have no + CHR on it @.@ I haven't even figured out if this is possible yet. Or at least equal amounts of + CHR on both wind and singing.

I'm only doing 100 elegys with each test set so my data is not going to be super accurate. But it will give us a way better idea of what is what...unless of course I get resisted at 100%. Maybe I'll up the amount of casts then or go recruit a brd with the same gear/merits.

So does anyone have any other suggestions or advice before I start this up?

[pchan]

However, if your CHR is more than 10 than that of your targets, the bonus from added CHR is .5 macc instead of 1.

The first part seem correct but the second part is not. At least when I nuke for hours qiqirns poulterers.

(target's INT+10)+34 INT=62.1%
(target's INT+10)+0 INT=55.8%
(target's INT+10)+20 mac=75.4%

(400 nukes each, so yes low sample )

INT is much worse past target's INT+10, in this case it's like 5 INT=1 mac..

[Antithesis]

this^

Pretty sure Onion is a troll, but Anti has been spewing this same bullshit on KI BRD forums, when in fact you have no real evidence... just STFU already.

Hi. Did I ever say that this was fact? No. It is my own personal opinion. If you can not differentiate opinions from fact then kindly please don't say anything. I am not trying to sound like a know-it-all. I am simply trying to give my opinion on how this works. Nothing more. So I don't have a LJ with test results like Kaeko. Big deal, I am not here to solve any formulas or show you numbers. I am here giving my own personal opinion. Not facts, opinions. And everything I have posted has been my opinion. If you do not like it then don't read it.

@ Barber: The Oracle's Vs. Goliard forumlas are nice. If our debuffing works like that then sure, Oracle's would probably be situational and would be superior to Goliard. But until then, and until I am sure my CHR > the mobs I am sticking to my Goliard Clogs.

I stated before. I understand why people are tired of hearing those numbers. But I simply say those numbers to just make a small point. You can stack CHR AS HIGH AS YOU WANT. It will STILL have a massive effect on landing debuffs. The diminishing returns conversation is dull this day and age because we know better. Even after the so called "120" you can keep stacking CHR and it still has a massive effect. Again, I do not say any of this as fact. It is just my own personal opinion.

[Mae]

500 is the magic number. When your combined skill of Wind and Singing reaches 500+ you can comfortably start stacking MACC pieces.

It's the way you present it. New BRD's looking for answers will see this and say, "oh snap!" 500 is the "magic number". If you are not stating facts, then don't present it that way. You are doing a great disservice to the BRD community.

[Antithesis]

It's the way you present it. New BRD's looking for answers will see this and say, "oh snap!" 500 is the "magic number". If you are not stating facts, then don't present it that way. You are doing a great disservice to the BRD community.

You're Ivaphoneix from brd forums right? (If not never mind)

I would not say disservice but w/e, thats you. And yes, that statement is worded like a fact and I do apologize for that.