Absolute Virtue - Other Discussion

[Vajra]

This is discussion for non-torque AV stuff. Keep all theories not about the torque/2h locking in this thread.

(Splits from other thread, including theories about the word theory)


Just throwin this out there but >.>...AV's coolest 2hr in my opinion is Meikyo Shisui (graphics wise) I remember him using it, then jumping out of the sky 3 times instantly wiping out everyone within a 10-20 distance (inside or outside ally).

[thetruepandagod]

shall we commence the futsuno Vs amano again if this turns out to be true?

[Septimus]

Time for a little tirade, I would like to put a word filter on the forums that changes the word "theory" to the phrase "wild, crazy speculation". Theories require testing, testing, and more testing- this is why I want to beat people with Carl Popper's thigh bone when they say "it's just a theory". No, there is no such thing as just a theory, theories require evidence, testing, proof, and more testing. Our nation's lack of understanding of the scientific method is sublimely ridiculous- and makes me as a History and Philosophy of Science graduate want to cry.

Sorry for the brief interlude, back to the speculation and conjecture, maybe we will be able to get this to hypothesis standards with a few more AV pops.

[Demosthenes11]

Time for a little tirade, I would like to put a word filter on the forums that changes the word "theory" to the phrase "wild, crazy speculation". Theories require testing, testing, and more testing- this is why I want to beat people with Carl Popper's thigh bone when they say "it's just a theory". No, there is no such thing as just a theory, theories require evidence, testing, proof, and more testing. Our nation's lack of understanding of the scientific method is sublimely ridiculous- and makes me as a History and Philosophy of Science graduate want to cry.

Sorry for the brief interlude, back to the speculation and conjecture, maybe we will be able to get this to hypothesis standards with a few more AV pops.

lol no

mathematically and scientifically, theory has your definition. But the word theory is not limited to those bounds. In fact, the word theory itself means "speculation" or even "guess." High horse ---->

[Septimus]

lol no

mathematically and scientifically, theory has your definition. But the word theory is not limited to those bounds. In fact, the word theory itself means "speculation" or even "guess." High horse ---->

The word has been bastardized to the sorry state that it is in today, and this is why people don't understand that the word actually has meaning beyond Mr. Data "theorizing" that the subspace relays are irradiated an anti-matter charged plasma coil causing a rupture in the space-time continuum causing the pirate ghosts to appear in the holodeck.

[Demosthenes11]

The word has been bastardized to the sorry state that it is in today, and this is why people don't understand that the word actually has meaning beyond Mr. Data "theorizing" that the subspace relays are irradiated an anti-matter charged plasma coil causing a rupture in the space-time continuum causing the pirate ghosts to appear in the holodeck.

really?

The word is derived from Greek θεωρία theoria (Jerome), Greek "contemplation, speculation", from θεωρός "spectator", θέα thea "a view" + ὁρᾶν horan "to see", literally "looking at a show".

I think we are actually holding its meaning tbh. Science and math hijacked the word because they needed tiers of "proof"

[Kurt Cobain]

theoretically is code for "i made thsi up b/c i thott it'd be cool and make sense", in theory, if I punch the air, I could travel through a hole in spacetime, through the TUBEZ OF THE INTARNETZ and over to you, punching you in the face. in theory, but; we need more thrust

[Demosthenes11]

i wish i were a derivative so i could be tangent to your curves

[Ramzii]

Cosine all up in this bizzatch

[Colenzo]

theoretically is code for "i made thsi up b/c i thott it'd be cool and make sense", in theory, if I punch the air, I could travel through a hole in spacetime, through the TUBEZ OF THE INTARNETZ and over to you, punching you in the face. in theory, but; we need more thrust

theoretically speaking of course

[ringthree]

The word has been bastardized to the sorry state that it is in today, and this is why people don't understand that the word actually has meaning beyond Mr. Data "theorizing" that the subspace relays are irradiated an anti-matter charged plasma coil causing a rupture in the space-time continuum causing the pirate ghosts to appear in the holodeck.

I believe a better word would be hypothesis.

[Max™]

Spoiler: show

[retarded post about AV which will be ignored due to blm gear arguments]

I've been thinking that the only problem with the one obvious idea I haven't seen tested (BEFORE THIS ONE), was what the fuck the trick with the 2hrs was supposed to be.

It makes sense now though, assuming this idea has merit, with his whole "show me your principles" spiel.

SE essentially made AV into a JoL reraise, so it may as well be considered the same monster. Just a second stage of the fight.

They gave us 2 hours to kill it.
They said we have to break his regen.
They told us we have to do 2 things to break his regen.
They said our fight speed is wrong.

They showed us a video with people dinking around in weird gear, doling out piddly ass amounts of damage and 2hring on jobs that IF NOTHING ELSE can be safely assumed to be level 72 or higher from their visible gear.

Breaking AV's regen by killing JoL pets takes roughly 40~45 minutes.
AV has roughly 66k HP now.

We need to know exactly how much AV will regen per tic/minute/hour/whatever.

I don't know of anyone who has measured his regen amount exactly ever, particularly not since this last change to 100% pop/BW nerf/etc.

If he normally heals more than 1000 Dmg per minute, then you should be able to break his regen and do between 1000 Dmg per minute and the amount he would have healed since he popped without him leaving "readies 2hr." mode, enabling you to counter his 2hrs with 2hrs used by people wearing the corresponding torques.

[/retarded post about AV which will be ignored due to blm gear arguments over]

[Tubbers]

Spoiler: show

[retarded post about AV which will be ignored due to blm gear arguments]

I've been thinking that the only problem with the one obvious idea I haven't seen tested (BEFORE THIS ONE), was what the fuck the trick with the 2hrs was supposed to be.

It makes sense now though, assuming this idea has merit, with his whole "show me your principles" spiel.

SE essentially made AV into a JoL reraise, so it may as well be considered the same monster. Just a second stage of the fight.

They gave us 2 hours to kill it.
They said we have to break his regen.
They told us we have to do 2 things to break his regen.
They said our fight speed is wrong.

They showed us a video with people dinking around in weird gear, doling out piddly ass amounts of damage and 2hring on jobs that IF NOTHING ELSE can be safely assumed to be level 72 or higher from their visible gear.

Breaking AV's regen by killing JoL pets takes roughly 40~45 minutes.
AV has roughly 66k HP now.

We need to know exactly how much AV will regen per tic/minute/hour/whatever.

I don't know of anyone who has measured his regen amount exactly ever, particularly not since this last change to 100% pop/BW nerf/etc.

If he normally heals more than 1000 Dmg per minute, then you should be able to break his regen and do between 1000 Dmg per minute and the amount he would have healed since he popped without him leaving "readies 2hr." mode, enabling you to counter his 2hrs with 2hrs used by people wearing the corresponding torques.

[/retarded post about AV which will be ignored due to blm gear arguments over]

Doubt it, his regen is extreme anyways. It's not 1000 HP/minute, it's like 500-1000 HP/tic.

[Max™]

Doubt it, his regen is extreme anyways. It's not 1000 HP/minute, it's like 500-1000 HP/tic.

Ok, lets assume it's 500 per tic, 1 tic/3 seconds right? So 10,000 per minute?

How hard is it to do over 10,000 Dmg per minute to AV?

How many people have deliberately tried to avoid doing more than 500~1000 Dmg per Tic?



Why would they set the regen so ridiculously high, then give an odd, multi-part method to remove it, and mention that removing it is important?



If you kill him fast enough to take him down in an hour without breaking his regen, you are doing too much damage for his AI, and he flips out and goes batshit.


Patience is the Absolute Virtue.

[fndragon]

Ok, lets assume it's 500 per tic, 1 tic/3 seconds right? So 10,000 per minute?

How hard is it to do over 10,000 Dmg per minute to AV?

How many people have deliberately tried to avoid doing more than 500~1000 Dmg per Tic?



Why would they set the regen so ridiculously high, then give an odd, multi-part method to remove it, and mention that removing it is important?



If you kill him fast enough to take him down in an hour without breaking his regen, you are doing too much damage for his AI, and he flips out and goes batshit.


Patience is the Absolute Virtue.

No. Just... No.

First, this isn't even close to the idea espoused by the OP.

Second, to humour your suggestion, "limiting damage over time" and "timed fight" are kind of mutually exclusive. Yes, yes, yes, Dedainsonne... That's one mob, implemented months later, in a different event, and he gives TONS OF OBVIOUS CLUES. But if this method was as simple as you say, holding parties wouldn't have been wiped, amirite? Holding parties typically do jack and squat for damage, and we've seen countless experiments where a PLD/RDM/WHM tries to hold AV for a while and ultimately gets their faces stomped in.

Third, Patience is a virtue is just a trite saying. It's not, actually, a Cardinal Virtue. Those'd be Prudence, Justice, Temperance, and Fortitude. Ya know, to be picky.

Please, I think you and Bercus were the ones who wanted to try and "limit the damage dealt over time". It's a novel idea, but fraught with logical fallacies and issues of timing and lack of feedback. And that, ultimately, makes it both untestable and unworkable as a solution.

[Max™]

Vice ↓ Virtue ↓
Lust Chastity
Gluttony Temperance
Greed Charity
Sloth Diligence
Wrath Patience
Envy Kindness
Pride Humility

Missing Justice, but then you can find sources like: Seven virtues - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia which mention it being added.

Long Suffering, Enduring, Patience... it's a generally accepted virtue which isn't included in the Faith/Fortitude/Justice/Hope/Love/Temperance/Prudence list which fits the hints they gave us.

How many holding parties actively work to break the second part of his regen?

Why would they insist that breaking his regen (which we can and have overcome with brute force) matters if we could just beat him down without doing it?

Why would they say his fight speed is wrong?

What does the video show? Nukes on the element of the day, and a slow metered damage output.

Timed fight + limited damage over time are not mutually exclusive, we know that you have to do at least 1000 Dmg per minute to kill him "the right way" because they gave him 66k HP, a 2 hour total timer, and the right way to break his regen takes roughly 40~45 minutes to milk JoL of spawns.

120 - 45 = 75, just over an hour of leeway, we know from KC Drk zerging that you COULD kill him in under a minute, but SE didn't want that and nerfed it, so logically the fight has to take between 1 and 75 minutes, killing him without exceeding the speed of his regen would take what, 5~10 minutes?

So then the problem becomes the one addressed in this thread: if you can keep him relatively manageable in the "Absolute Virtue readies..." mode by not zerg rushing him, how do you counter the 2hrs?

Try wearing the appropriate torque while 2hring and see if that works.

I wouldn't speak up about it, but as of this date, I've still yet to see this tested and seeing this idea pop up made me go "ah hah!"

[Gtype954]

We just helped another try to fight AV today... We wiped and the damn thing had near full HP but.... I noticed one major thing today. Today is really the first time I ever seen Meteor since the pre-patch and I can tell you its slightly over 20' or slightly more then casting range. Meteor is a light based spell, not fire based for people who don't know this yet. Pld cannot equip Osode, but they get access to lots of light resistance gear, random stuff from the MH. I can't remeber the name of all the equip I remeber moon amulet and stuff like that.
As soon as manafont processed He hit a macro button giving him all the resist gear he can get. It wasn't much really, I would estimate maybe +30 in resist gear. However, He survived Manafont and that was without light Carol.
Before I ever seen him use Meteor in person, people said the range was so huge it would Kill anyone from a crazy radius.
Meteor can definently be avoided by the backline jobs, as by a backup PLD or 2 waiting with the backline jobs just in case the Original tank goes down. If the BRD uses Soul voice and Light Carol, I would go as far as to say, I think the PLD would be able to survive 2 meteors if he has that song on. The PLD can also 2 hr to prevent any spell interupptions and spam Cure IV on himself, since their is no mages around to cure him for the 30secs-1min that manafont is active. Also, Having Fealty and an Aegis Shield/Avalon Breatplate won't hurt either lol. That is what our PLD had equiped.
I also think you can throw and COR in his party and give him magus Roll for MDB, and Evokers Roll, So that the Brd can Give Light Carol and March, Maybe a 2nd Brd in the party so he can get 2 Minnes. The 5th Party member would be a BLU for the Magus Roll bonus unless COR has relic Head and the 6th member would be a WHM with full bar spell merits, JSE Body, and relic Legs for baraera.
The other Party Can consist of Rdm tank with lots of MDB and -dmg gear like Shadow ring/mantle, Defending ring, Goliard Legs, Dalmatica/Relic body. Another backup PLD, a BRD, SAM, DRK, WHM.
3rd party DRG with capped angon merits, Blm,brd,blm,rdm,smn.
Drg is used for angon and some attacking, but if he dies, its not a game changer like if a PLD or Rdm tank were to go down. Blms or rangers are here for ranged attack alternative. If shadowbind does indeed work on AV, you can maybe use 5 rangers to take turns shadowing binding him for the 5 secs that is lasts. (heard you can shadowbind him for a short 5 secs, but I have never tried this so its unconfirmed), A rdm healer just cause you know, its good to have at least one, and the brd in their for refresh.

Light carol almost seems like a waste of a song when you need defense, haste and possibly a refresh song. I put 2 brds in that Party so Pld can keep light carol on at all times and haste songs. However we ended up doing Light Carol and Wind carol for one BRD, and March + Minne on the other brd (haste, defense song).
The rdms roll was to tank as well. They have strong MDB and Strong -dmg gear. He has tons of refresh with relic head, dalmatica and his spell refresh. his roll was to cast blind, dispel, bind, and sleep for hate as shown in the SE video. But due to the fact that Brd did not casts ballad on pld... His roll was also to refresh the pld, and to haste him if the whm had to go out of range on certain 2 hrs.

I think With SV light carol, I will guess that pld and rdm will both survive the 1st meteor. I think pld can 2 hr and spam cure IVs on himself, and the Rdm can use chainspell and spam Cure IVs on himself and the Pld.

considering how I wanted the brd rdm and pld to 2 hr during this Manafont anyways, then hopefully that can lock the 2 hr somehow. I know the PLD and RDM will be suffering on MP after that manafont, so the Backup PLD might need to get in there somehow and a brd is going to have to switch to 2 ballads. 2 ballads, evokers roll and either rdm refresh or a yag drink that the pld brought, should ease back up his MP again.

When call wyvern occured.. rdm/whm casted Diaga and brought them to the Blm party to be nuked down.. I believe they were nuked one by one and not Ga III.

For hundred fists, you can Reprisal and Sentinel.
Astral Flow is survivable... its not nasty like dynamis AF.
EES is nasty and can Result in a tank being 1 shotted. With full HP and Minne.. EES did not take the PLD down.

He does not just use the 2 hrs of the jobs you come on... As shown here, because there was no RNGs or MNKs. The PLD did not use a shield in the SE video which is pretty amazing, I'm sure you can survive meteor without the Aegis... also reprisal was not out at that time, I personally believe the shield would be better then the earth staff, You also have access to atonement now... which might not do any dmg to AV as I have not tested this.

With some serious gear from a Bar-geared whm, plus wind carol, and MDB gear form both rdm and pld tank... Chainspell was survivable.. If for any reason any one of those tanks dropped. there was 1-3 backup plds and 1 backup rdm/nin tank.

There is 2 abilities which I do not know how to understand... and 1 is benediction. Its an an instant ability and there is nothing you can do to stun it, interuppt it, prevent it, stop it, or anything else. I have not seen him use benediction more then 1 after the update. Hopefully he is only limited to this move once post-patch.
The 2nd ability and I have never seen it done before if Mijin Gakure.
Sure you can bring over 300 Fire resist gear and have barfira and Fire carol casted on you to survive it.... But this move is an instant JA as well and you would not have any time to macro in gear for this move, you also have no idea when it is coming and should have baraera on at all times, which would be overwritten if you used barfira randomly.
This move is also huge radius on mobs I have seen use it, and is HP based, and most likely AV will have shit load of HP when used. I have not seen this move on AV before... Perhaps it does not 1 shot your party, and perhaps his Mijin is not HP based.
The only way to predict this move was if he used 14 of his 2 hrs and they were all in order.. then you would be able to predict this one would follow.

As for some of those that do not know this already... You only have about a 1 hr time limit to defeat AV. its 2 hrs total for both JOL and AV... Both of them are on shared timers so JOL definenantly has to do with this mob.
every NM in the entire sea with pets, has pets that enhance the mob in one way... so i'm sure AVs pets are no different. IX drks pets increase his RR rate supposely. Forts pet's give him reflect status, and JOLs pets give him regen until killed for an amount of time. However, IX mnks pets dont do shit, and IX drgs wyverns don't really do shit.
AVs pets were only summoned when he used call wyvern. I have not fought him before the Patch.. and people were saying they get called out as soon as they die. They do not.

We fought him on Earthsday so we casted Stone I stone II Stone III, stone IV, and the Blms repeated Stone I stone II stone III and Stone IV a 2nd time. They then rested and did whatever they wanted the rest of the fight after they ran out of MP.
His regen is not 1000 per tic I think you are crazy lol, we got him down to around 85%, you just start running out of MP when he attacks for so hard and slightly fast, and to be honest we weren't even there to try to win cause we don't expect him to be killed by anyone on our server... we just wanted to toy around and try to see if we could survive meteor if he used it, and see if his Aeroga IVs were survivable. After surviving both and having them go off early in the fight, we started getting excited and hopefully next time, we can try to attempt him for real, with foods suitable for him, lots of RR, and some outside spectators to help heal and help um, die with us.

[Kurt Cobain]

i sighed, loudly

[Day]

I'm trying really really really hard to read that, but quickly, did you guys even use the torques as suggested in OP?

[Linktri]

A while ago, I posted a ton of crazy shit about AV in trying to brainstorm a few new ideas.

Here are the elemental affinities of each job's 2 hour ability.
Justice: RDM Lightning, PLD Earth, THF Wind
Prudence: WHM Light, BLM Water
Hope: BRD Light, SMN Light, PUP ???
Faith: MNK Lightning, NIN Fire
Fortitude: WAR Fire, DRK Darkness
Temperance: BST Light, RNG Lightning
Love: SAM Water, DRG Light

I suggested (at the time) that some equipment be used while doing skillchains in some kind of order resembling what was on the torques. I proposed also the use the Obis and Gorgets that are available as rewards from the quest "In the Name of Science" to see if that had any affect.

Perhapsit's not what 2 hour is used, but more specifically, in what pattern they are used.

Maybe the two hours discharged have to complete the set of jobs listed on the weapons. Or maybe have to be of a specific set of elements to counteract the element of the 2 hour that AV uses.

I'm rambling. Just trying to brainstorm again.