BG; Your opportunity to talk to Allakhazam and SE.

[Yugl]

This is, by definition, false, since there are players who did dupe but received a warning. Again, had they actually banned everyone that duped, this complaint would not exist.

That's the whole point. What you suggest they should have done is give them a warning violation. How is that fair to the people who were banned for duplicating items before all this started (Aka Delivery Box item duplication). You're saying it's not fair because the punishment wasn't the same for everyone. Fine I agree with that. However, you suggest that in order to make it fair, everyone should receive the warning instead of the ban. I suggest that to be fair, it would have to be a widespread ban. So there's two options, one to ban them all, one to warn them all. Which would be the better choice? Well we agree that the punishment should fit the offense, so what is the punishment for duplicating items? Based on earlier actions taken against duplicators, it would have to be banning.

I won't argue against you about the disparity in the punishment. However, what you suggest they should have done contradicts what you've been suggesting is important when delivering punishments because previous attempts at duplicating items were met with bans not warnings.

[kupkup]

they havent stopped the bannings btw. i just got LM-17 after a 24 hour suspension. i never duped but i got banned for casting dia on a darter in dragon's aery last night. now im receiving LM17. i mean i was in a group that tried to dupe but they were kinda stupid so it never worked.

[Spider-Dan]

How is that fair to the people who were banned for duplicating items before all this started (Aka Delivery Box item duplication). You're saying it's not fair because the punishment wasn't the same for everyone. Fine I agree with that. However, you suggest that in order to make it fair, everyone should receive the warning instead of the ban. I suggest that to be fair, it would have to be a widespread ban. So there's two options, one to ban them all, one to warn them all. Which would be the better choice? Well we agree that the punishment should fit the offense, so what is the punishment for duplicating items? Based on earlier actions taken against duplicators, it would have to be banning.

First off, I am not familiar with the details of the Delivery Box duping; I certainly don't remember anything as widespread as this incident. I also don't know if those people were banned with zero strikes on their accounts. But if it turns out that punishments were given as arbitrarily as these were, then yes, that's also f*cked up.

More importantly, though, it's ridiculous to continue an inequitable policy sheerly for the sake of being consistent. If there is a problem with the way offenses are handled, fixing it is more important than propagating it in the name of "equal" injustice. So it is perfectly consistent for me to say what they should have done in this most recent case, and what they should do going forward.

[Yugl]

First off, I am not familiar with the details of the Delivery Box duping; I certainly don't remember anything as widespread as this incident. I also don't know if those people were banned with zero strikes on their accounts. But if it turns out that punishments were given as arbitrarily as these were, then yes, that's also f*cked up.

Basically people DCed during while putting items in the delivery box in order to duplicate items. The players involved were banned if I remember correctly.

More importantly, though, it's ridiculous to continue an inequitable policy sheerly for the sake of being consistent.

Doesn't the fact that the punishment is consistent mean it's equitable? It would be unfair and inequitable for me to give two people different punishments for committing the same violation. As a result, it would be inequitable for SE to give everyone involved in the Salvage glitch temporary bans since it wouldn't be equal to the punishment past duplicators received. Thus, the only way for the punishment to be equitable would be to ban everyone involved regardless of how big of a role they played.

If there is a problem with the way offenses are handled, fixing it is more important than propagating it in the name of "equal" injustice.

Alright, so we're back to the question of whether duplicating should be met with bans. Personally, I think it should remain that way since no one had an issue with it until now; it makes a strong stand against duplicating, which can be detrimental to the game; and it's fair since it treats past offenders the same as current offenders. So while I believe the punishment was unfair because everyone received different types of punishments, I don't think that temporarily banning all of them would be fair either.

Edit: I'm not for the bans, but I think if we're actually talking about fair and just punishments, it's the only reasonable result.

[Spider-Dan]

Doesn't the fact that the punishment is consistent mean it's equitable?

The punishment ISN'T consistent. That's the entire point! (Unless you mean "consistently random" which basically nullifies any meaningful usage of the word "consistent".)

If everyone was banned then, regardless of strikes, then yes, everyone should be banned now. But I don't know if they gave out warnings or temp bans for Delivery Box duping.

If they used the same arbitrary process then that they used this time (where the difference between warning/perm/temp follows no discernible pattern), then no, they shouldn't continue that for the sake of "consistent" randomness.

[Hapernack]

Yes SE is very out-of-touch with their playerbase. The vast majority of the time, our voices go unheard. Job adjustments, basic services, etc are just a few things that aren't being listened to.

If SE had a few reps we could actually talk with on a regular basis that could properly represent the company as well as represent our ideas and needs to the company, then there would be far less bitching and exploiting going on.

Right now we exist within a world where we have next to no say in what goes on. The "law" is a document that is incredibly vague and completely up to interpretation by a group of people we have no representation in. Basically.... FFXI seems mostly a communist regime except stripped of any ideas of equality.

To bring up an earlier issue, we KNOW who certain RMT are. We KNOW certain people who use certain methods. Yet since we're not listened to, our info stays within our own community.

A "Suggestion Box" isn't a good way to get the real ideas from people. You need a bunch of regular chosen representatives who make it their job to check forums like this and actually play the damn game on a regular basis to accurately understand what we're going through. We play the game every day. We're a good test group because we care. Communicating game problems to people who aren't actually being immersed in our world though is a serious issue that isn't being addressed.

[Yugl]

The punishment ISN'T consistent. That's the entire point! (Unless you mean "consistently random" which basically nullifies any meaningful usage of the word "consistent".)

If everyone was banned then, regardless of strikes, then yes, everyone should be banned now. But I don't know if they gave out warnings or temp bans for Delivery Box duping.

If they used the same arbitrary process then that they used this time (where the difference between warning/perm/temp follows no discernible pattern), then no, they shouldn't continue that for the sake of "consistent" randomness.

They permanently banned those players who used the Delivery box trick. So banning all of these players would have been equitable and consistent.

[Spider-Dan]

They permanently banned those players who used the Delivery box trick. So banning all of these players would have been equitable and consistent.

So, just to be clear, you are saying that everyone that used the Delivery Box exploit (and was caught) received a permanent ban? No one was issued a temp ban or a warning?

[Yugl]

So, just to be clear, you are saying that everyone that used the Delivery Box exploit (and was caught) received a permanent ban? No one was issued a temp ban or a warning?

That was the case. Of course, there may have been some JP clients that received lighter reports, but I only bring this up as a possibility since back then there was less communication between NA and JP. It's also difficult to account for everyone since there wasn't a list. However based on what SE said and the information given to the community, everyone involved was permanently banned. No warning. No temporary ban.

Edit: In fact, I think this salvage glitch was the *first* time they have ever issued temporary bans and warnings to those using duplication tricks.

[Osede]

Edit: In fact, I think this salvage glitch was the *first* time they have ever issued temporary bans and warnings to those using duplication tricks.

For temp and perm ban, yes, it is the first time.

But back before time there is a "warp synch" exploit, which lots of high skill players that abusing this exploit and they recieved a 24hrs ban. But not sure about the warning.

[Pikko]

Pwyff, wtf is this? I thought we had finished this conversation. I thought you said you didn't want to piss me off again. You need this for what? You didn't even know that SE had a North American office.

[Charismatic]

Someone PM me a picture of Pikko so I can fap

[isladar]

Pwyff, wtf is this? I thought we had finished this conversation. I thought you said you didn't want to piss me off again. You need this for what? You didn't even know that SE had a North American office.

OHSHI--

Yeah sorry son, owned.

[isladar]

Rather, Pikko or it didn't happen.

God, I'm on a roll today.