Teleporting Information

[Khamsin]

So, in other words, you think that in order to successfully create sentient life through wholly artificial means, it would require quantum physics and not just biochemistry and a better understanding of cells and biological processes?

I never figured the inner workings of a living brain would get all the way down into quantum particles. I wonder what it would take to artificially create a living cell, given that there is no brain involved and a cell is not sentient.

[Max™]

More than just quantum physics, a proper understanding of WHY quantum effects even emerge, and a full unified theory of everything, not just Relativistic and Quantum scales, but things like quantum biochemistry.


Scientists recently learned that the reason photosynthesis is so efficient, is mostly because of leaves making use of quantum effects during the process.

If you think algae relies on manipulating electrons and photons directly, but awareness doesn't, you should really think about what awareness involves.

[Cow_k]

And this all still assumes that it's even possible to find that so called 'key' or 'soul' to jump-start the whole system. As was stated before, for all we know, we could teleport someone using the disintegration-copy process and have the copy appear on the other side devoid of life despite or so-called perfect copy. It's the basic thought that the soul is 100% intangible as illogical as that sounds.

The day we figure this shit out is probably the day we basically discover immortality as we'd have perfect understandings for how the brain truly functions. However, until we figure out how to artificially create a human on a table using spare parts and get it to breathe on it's own and feel self-awareness, everything is speculation.

[Max™]

Nothing in this Universe is outside the laws of this Universe.

My "soul" is just my awareness, it's not an intangible unphysical thing, it's probably just something we haven't really investigated yet, that being a quantum process.

[0ni0n]

And this all still assumes that it's even possible to find that so called 'key' or 'soul' to jump-start the whole system. As was stated before, for all we know, we could teleport someone using the disintegration-copy process and have the copy appear on the other side devoid of life despite or so-called perfect copy. It's the basic thought that the soul is 100% intangible as illogical as that sounds.

The day we figure this shit out is probably the day we basically discover immortality as we'd have perfect understandings for how the brain truly functions. However, until we figure out how to artificially create a human on a table using spare parts and get it to breathe on it's own and feel self-awareness, everything is speculation.

The preservation of human memory in its unadulterated form and the creation of consciousness equate immortality.

[Cow_k]

Nothing in this Universe is outside the laws of this Universe.

My "soul" is just my awareness, it's not an intangible unphysical thing, it's probably just something we haven't really investigated yet, that being a quantum process.

Which is fine as an opinion, but that's all it is until definitive proof is found. I'm no expert on this shit, but for all we know, the human body is just a window for something from a separate dimension and whatever is looking through truly is intangible in this particular universe. Or again, that there's just certain things that our logic can't explain and never will be able to explain. Do I think it's a waste of time to look in to this stuff? Not at all, but I'm not so arrogant as to assume that there's truly a human answer to every question we don't know the answer to without proof. Could there be an answer to everything in the universe? I suppose that's possible too, but no one knows yet.

[Cow_k]

The preservation of human memory in its unadulterated form and the creation of consciousness equate immortality.

And ugh for double post, but I figure if we ever came to such an understanding of the brain that we could create life, I'd like to think that we'd have figured out how to regrow brain cells which is honestly the only thing that's keeping us humans dying. Regrow brain cells or figure out how to get them working again and *bam* supposed instant immortality assuming there aren't other factors we have yet to discover at play.

[Maguspk]

Reminds me of the movie the Prestige, where he clones/teleports himself every performance while killing the original off. Love that movie.

I totally forgot about that movie but that is definitely very similar to what I think happens. Maybe seeing that movie influenced my view on the subject in some way.

[Demosthenes11]

inc retarded religion debate

[Cow_k]

Probably only if Neosutra showed up. Waaaaiiit for it~

[Max™]

Which is fine as an opinion, but that's all it is until definitive proof is found. I'm no expert on this shit, but for all we know, the human body is just a window for something from a separate dimension and whatever is looking through truly is intangible in this particular universe. Or again, that there's just certain things that our logic can't explain and never will be able to explain. Do I think it's a waste of time to look in to this stuff? Not at all, but I'm not so arrogant as to assume that there's truly a human answer to every question we don't know the answer to without proof. Could there be an answer to everything in the universe? I suppose that's possible too, but no one knows yet.

Dimension = freedom of movement or measurement.

Up, Down, Past, Future... these are Dimensions.


The idea that some sci-fi stories give of another sort of Universe overlaid on our own while remaining out of sight, yet somehow being able to see into ours is based on an utter lack of awareness of simple aspects of a Universe.

String Theory made this worse with the (absurd) idea that you can have additional dimensions folded up, present but too small to interact with. Purely a mathematical abstraction to make the numbers fit, and only required due to the flawed bottom up approach.

The fact that ANY part of the Universe is comprehensible makes it simpler to assume all of it is comprehensible, rather than arbitrarily include aspects which are for some reason out of reach of simple interactions.

Your soul, whatever it is, interacts with the Universe, therefore the Universe interacts with it, and it must then be a part of the Universe.

[Kaylia]

The fact that ANY part of the Universe is comprehensible makes it simpler to assume all of it is comprehensible, rather than arbitrarily include aspects which are for some reason out of reach of simple interactions.

I agree with the first part of your post about string theories, but I wouldnt go as far as to say "any" part of the universe is comprehensible. It might be, but it's not impossible everything is the way it is because of interactions with something bigger.

[Tristam]

So, in other words, you think that in order to successfully create sentient life through wholly artificial means, it would require quantum physics and not just biochemistry and a better understanding of cells and biological processes?

I never figured the inner workings of a living brain would get all the way down into quantum particles. I wonder what it would take to artificially create a living cell, given that there is no brain involved and a cell is not sentient.

I've never, in my life, heard that memory involved any sort of action below the levels of proteins, genes, and chemical signals that result in an electrochemical potential.

We have a very good understanding of long and short term memory, at least enough to describe it as a rearrangement of chemical receptors and the local protein synthesis machinery in neurons (requiring gene expression) that keeps them in close contact and constantly communicating with one another so that the chemical signal is "potentiated" for easy access. Memory by itself does not require a soul.

[Zalius]

its all in the music dog. vibrations and stuff. string theory. guitars are the universe. its a message. we're all vibratin dog.

[Max™]

I've never, in my life, heard that memory involved any sort of action below the levels of proteins, genes, and chemical signals that result in an electrochemical potential.

We have a very good understanding of long and short term memory, at least enough to describe it as a rearrangement of chemical receptors and the local protein synthesis machinery in neurons (requiring gene expression) that keeps them in close contact and constantly communicating with one another so that the chemical signal is "potentiated" for easy access. Memory by itself does not require a soul.

We have a decent theory for memory as a chemical process.

We don't properly understand the quantum effects involved yet, and everything involves them, even chemical processes.

Hell, the chemical processes probably were selected for due to the framework they provide for smaller scale interactions.


Awareness, I don't believe can be explained by neurons growing and turning on and off. It always felt like a ridiculous idea, and there is a growing number of scientists who are developing this idea.

If there was something outside of the Universe which interacted with this Universe, it hasn't had time to propagate it's effects to the interior yet.

So either the laws of physics seem to work except in certain random cases, or the Universe is self-consistent.

[Kaylia]

We have a decent theory for memory as a chemical process.

We don't properly understand the quantum effects involved yet, and everything involves them, even chemical processes.

Our brain doesn't operate on quantum mechanics level. There is enough atoms to justify the uses of biochemistry.

Awareness, I don't believe can be explained by neurons growing and turning on and off. It always felt like a ridiculous idea, and there is a growing number of scientists who are developing this idea.

There is nothing impresive about awareness, or at least, there is nothing impresive once you realize the brain is a big computer that take decision based on its surrounding. Because you can interact with yourself, you will eventually have to consider your own being when you take a decision. Awareness is just a part of this process.

If there was something outside of the Universe which interacted with this Universe, it hasn't had time to propagate it's effects to the interior yet

Heehee.

I'm not going to pretend I know how another universe would interact with us, but the use of "time" would need more justification.

[Max™]

Given the currently valid Theory of Relativity, we can make educated assumptions about Universes interacting with us. The Universe expanded fast enough in it's early stages that it well outstripped the distance any extra-universal influence could have crossed during it's entire lifespan.

A computer doesn't operate by physically moving it's components around, and comparing the bio-chemical brain to a computer is like comparing an abacus to a computer.

Just because it has a large amount of atoms, does NOT mean it is wise to neglect quantum interactions.

Scientists just discovered photosynthesis is, in large part, so efficient due to leaves making use of quantum properties of electrons directly.

Why would you think photosynthetic plants do this, but our poorly explained consciousness does not?

[Kaylia]

Until you propose a valid theory that unify quantum mechanics and relativity, I'm not sure we can talk about "educated guess". We have no clue what kind of structure could exist beyond this time/space. For all I know, maybe those interactions could explain certain quantum phenomona.

You're not looking at the problem correctly. On a molecular level, quantum mechanics is very importants to explain what happen. You could even go as far as saying a single neuron need quantum mechanics to be understood completly.

However, there is not a single neuron in your brain that make the difference between "awareness" and its opposite. The only concept you need is "neuronal memory" and "neuronal network" to explain your intelligence.


The analogy with computer can be made if you talk about artificial neural networks and fuzzy logics. The biggest difference between computer and human is the amount of freedom you get from the nature.

[Max™]

As far as the scale of this Universe relative to other Universes, yes, Relativity works fine.

I'm actually working on a theory which explains Quantum Mechanics through a Relativistic paradigm, and suspect that the quantum realm is an emergent one... not a primary one.

That aside, I'm not the only one who is endorsing the idea of consciousness as a quantum effect.

[MF Perm tha Fineass]

The way I see it, put into database terms, is this:

A soul is like the unique key for a table entry and cannot have more than one occurrence. The body is like the accompanying data. You can have identical data between two entries, but the key cannot be duplicated. In this respect, teleportation could be thought of as a giant copy-paste operation. You will have two identical bodies, but the unique identifier, the soul, cannot be duplicated.

Except science can't prove the existence of the "soul." The "soul" could be nothing more than the collection of experiences and memories in the brain. If the particles of the brain are re-written onto new or other atoms, how do you know if there is a complete loss of data?