Alex Rodriguez linked to Steroids (2003 test)

[fren.]

The sport is already dying, and getting less and less interesting, so now we have to have a larger steroid cloud over it again. Awesome.

Bug Selig: Worst. Commish. Ever.

Disagree, attendance has been booming the last few years. It may take a big hit depending on who else is on the list were it to ever be released, but people aren't gonna just stop going to games.

One thing for sure is that ARod's isn't alone, he just happened to be the biggest fish in the pond that got plucked out.

[Toth]

Take out the 2001 - 2003 season and you still have one hell of a player, a certain Hall of Fame career (and if he continues strong and finally wins the Yankees a championship, its a lock).

His postseason performance though....yeah....

[Stiker]

Take out the 2001 - 2003 season and you still have one hell of a player, a certain Hall of Fame career (and if he continues strong and finally wins the Yankees a championship, its a lock).

If Bonds, McGwire and Palmerio are all going to be kept out of the Hall because of steroids then Rodriguez should be no different. Clemens as well will likely be in that group.

Trying to get into a discussion about removing steroid year numbers to judge Hall of Fame candidates is asking for a mess.

[Akiyama]

Disagree, attendance has been booming the last few years. It may take a big hit depending on who else is on the list were it to ever be released, but people aren't gonna just stop going to games.

One thing for sure is that ARod's isn't alone, he just happened to be the biggest fish in the pond that got plucked out.

Attendance may be booming in some cities, but it's dropping in a lot of others. Not just because of the popularity of the regular season dwindling, but because of the economy too. I doubt people will stop going to NFL games because the NFL is fucking huge, but I do see people not going to as many baseball games. I'm sure the Yanks, Mets, Cubs, Red Sox, and all the big market teams will keep it up, but teams like the Marlins, Rays, Royals, Reds, and what not.. their markets won't be as large.

If Bonds, McGwire and Palmerio are all going to be kept out of the Hall because of steroids then Rodriguez should be no different. Clemens as well will likely be in that group.

Trying to get into a discussion about removing steroid year numbers to judge Hall of Fame candidates is asking for a mess.

Again, no. He should be kept out of this discussion. Just because he broke 500 homers, I don't think it's an automatic lock anymore. Not as much as 300 wins for a pitcher is anyway. I think 600 homers (if done fairly) is the new "lock" for a HoF hitter. All McGwire did was walk and hit the long ball, so I don't even think he'd get in if he did it completely fairly.

Rafael Palmeiro I can understand as he not only got 500+ homers, but 3000+ hits. His career was tainted though, and there's 0% chance he gets in.

If Bonds weren't on steroids, he'd get in, and same with A-Roid, but I don't think it's the case now. I don't care if it was ONLY 2001-2003. That's still three years of his career where it was tainted that he'll NEVER get back. He still cheated, and unless he can go back in time and prevent it from happening again, he's fucked. The thing is.. he got caught up in the McGwire/Sosa bullshit, and was really stupid, thinking that hitting 35+ homers a season wasn't good enough. If he had "regular" years for him in that three year span, he'd be about 50 homers or so behind his pace that he's at now. Is that really a big sacrifice to risk the entire body of work? I don't think so, but clearly he did.

[Dimmauk]

Jose Canseco should be in the Hall of Fame based on his Stats and his book.

Until that list comes out, everyone that played before 2003 is guilty until proven innocent.
I know Babe Ruth was on steroids!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Stiker]

Again, no. He should be kept out of this discussion. Just because he broke 500 homers, I don't think it's an automatic lock anymore. Not as much as 300 wins for a pitcher is anyway. I think 600 homers (if done fairly) is the new "lock" for a HoF hitter. All McGwire did was walk and hit the long ball, so I don't even think he'd get in if he did it completely fairly.

The only reason his name would likely be mentioned isn't just the 500 HR, but because of the HR record he broke. I think had he been clean, he may not have been a lock, but he would have likely gotten in. His record breaking season would've been dubbed all kinds of "magical" and "a great baseball story" or some other BS that could push him in.

I know it is more of a stretch than some other cases, but I don't think it is as unlikely as you make it out to be. I agree with everything you say about his career, but had everything he done been legit he would be a freakin' baseball hero.

[Akiyama]

Yeah, but the fact remains that he was doing steroids even before then, so our first impressions of McGwire are the only ones that should matter. The days back in Oakland when him and Canseco were the bash brothers, and before they bulked up. TBH, if we completely omitted him from our minds, I don't think anyone would give a rat's ass.

[Stiker]

Jose Canseco should be in the Hall of Fame based on his Stats and his book.

Until that list comes out, everyone that played before 2003 is guilty until proven innocent.
I know Babe Ruth was on steroids!!!!!!!!!!!!!

lol bringing up Ruth and steroids reminds me of:

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/9...05018332go.jpg

Also, I really think with all of this steroid era business, people really should be in awe of what Hank Aaron did. He was definitely not built like today's power hitter. He may not have hit big moonshots but his HR count just as much as anyone else's did.

[Cephius]

His postseason performance though....yeah....

Just to nitpick, I am going to quote FireJoeMorgan.com in re to: A-rod is a terrible postseason performer. This obviously ignores 07 (even though he homered) and the non-existant 08.

1997 ALDS: 5-16, 1 HR, .313/.313/.563 (Very Good)

2000 ALDS: 4-13, .308/.308/.308 (Eh)

2000 ALCS: 9-22, 2 HR, .409/.480/.773 (Monster)

2004 ALDS: 8-19, 1 HR, .421/.476/.737 (Monster)

2004 ALCS: 8-31, 2 HR, .258/.378/.516 (Very Good)

2005 ALDS: 2-15, .133/.381/.200 (Bad, though he got on base)

2006 ALDS: 1-14, .071/.071/.071 (Terrible)

In seven series, he has two absolute beasts, two very good series, three kind of crummy ones. How can you say this guy falls apart in the postseason? In 2000-04 he went 25-72 with 5 HR and 7 2B. Now hear this, people:

Derek Jeter's Career Splits: .317/.388/.463

Derek Jeter's Career Postseason splits: .314/.384/.479

Mr. Clutch is actually Mr. Exactly the Same No Matter What Month You Are Talking About. He is Mr. Equally Excellent Hitting SS Every Month from April to November. He is Mr. Outrageously Similar Statistics Every 30 Days.

And for the record, in that huge 2004 ALCS against Boston, which earned ARod the reputation as a non-clutch player, Jeter went 6-30, .200/.333/.233.

[Headspace]

Mr. Clutch doesn't play baseball.

[Toth]

Just to nitpick, I am going to quote FireJoeMorgan.com in re to: A-rod is a terrible postseason performer. This obviously ignores 07 (even though he homered) and the non-existant 08.

1997 ALDS: 5-16, 1 HR, .313/.313/.563 (Very Good)

2000 ALDS: 4-13, .308/.308/.308 (Eh)

2000 ALCS: 9-22, 2 HR, .409/.480/.773 (Monster)

2004 ALDS: 8-19, 1 HR, .421/.476/.737 (Monster)

2004 ALCS: 8-31, 2 HR, .258/.378/.516 (Very Good)

2005 ALDS: 2-15, .133/.381/.200 (Bad, though he got on base)

2006 ALDS: 1-14, .071/.071/.071 (Terrible)

In seven series, he has two absolute beasts, two very good series, three kind of crummy ones. How can you say this guy falls apart in the postseason? In 2000-04 he went 25-72 with 5 HR and 7 2B. Now hear this, people:

Derek Jeter's Career Splits: .317/.388/.463

Derek Jeter's Career Postseason splits: .314/.384/.479

Mr. Clutch is actually Mr. Exactly the Same No Matter What Month You Are Talking About. He is Mr. Equally Excellent Hitting SS Every Month from April to November. He is Mr. Outrageously Similar Statistics Every 30 Days.

And for the record, in that huge 2004 ALCS against Boston, which earned ARod the reputation as a non-clutch player, Jeter went 6-30, .200/.333/.233.

Good points but from what I remember, in the spots where A-Rod really could have made the difference, he always choked or completely killed the rally. One of the most poignant was the Game 4 of the Boston Red Sox- Yankees series where they were up 3-0 and could have swept the series; A-Rod was up with men on base, the score was still close, and he either struck out or grounded into a DP. That right there was the chance to put the Red Sox away and resume the great dynasty of the 90's. And we all know what happened.

Stats may mask the true problems.

[Dimmauk]

lol bringing up Ruth and steroids reminds me of:

http://img117.imageshack.us/img117/9...05018332go.jpg

Also, I really think with all of this steroid era business, people really should be in awe of what Hank Aaron did. He was definitely not built like today's power hitter. He may not have hit big moonshots but his HR count just as much as anyone else's did.

I wonder how he would do against present day pitchers. I'm not trying to take anything away from what he did, but I think the players right now are better, faster,(not) smarter, stronger( cause of steroids), and better trained.

[Deejay]

Derek Jeter's Career Splits: .317/.388/.463

Derek Jeter's Career Postseason splits: .314/.384/.479

Mr. Clutch is actually Mr. Exactly the Same No Matter What Month You Are Talking About. He is Mr. Equally Excellent Hitting SS Every Month from April to November. He is Mr. Outrageously Similar Statistics Every 30 Days.

And for the record, in that huge 2004 ALCS against Boston, which earned ARod the reputation as a non-clutch player, Jeter went 6-30, .200/.333/.233.

You're completely ignoring the fact that Jeter gets timely hits. Plus him putting up the same numbers in the post season deserves more credit since you're only facing the top teams in the league and their 3 best pitchers. Not to mention that theres way more meaningful at bats in the post season compared to the regular season.

A-rod is viewed as a choker because he never gets the big hit when you need him to. Great players like Jeter and Manny make careers based off of their situational hitting and it's silly to ignore that.

[Penthesilea]

You're completely ignoring the fact that Jeter gets timely hits. Plus him putting up the same numbers in the post season deserves more credit since it's where you're only facing the top teams in the league and their 3 best pitchers. Not to mention that theres way more meaningful at bats in the post season compared to the regular season.

A-rod is viewed as a choker because he never gets the big hit when you need him to. Great players like Jeter and Manny make careers off of their situational hitting and it's silly to ignore that.

Good lord yes. This past post season I feared getting to the top-middle of the order of the Dodgers, cause I knew Manny would come up big.

[Akiyama]

Which Manny did against the Cubs. That homer he literally golfed out was hilarious.

[fren.]

Attendance may be booming in some cities, but it's dropping in a lot of others. Not just because of the popularity of the regular season dwindling, but because of the economy too. I doubt people will stop going to NFL games because the NFL is fucking huge, but I do see people not going to as many baseball games. I'm sure the Yanks, Mets, Cubs, Red Sox, and all the big market teams will keep it up, but teams like the Marlins, Rays, Royals, Reds, and what not.. their markets won't be as large.

That has more to do with the shitty franchises that are cellar doormats than actual lack of interest in the game.

Again, no. He should be kept out of this discussion. Just because he broke 500 homers, I don't think it's an automatic lock anymore. Not as much as 300 wins for a pitcher is anyway. I think 600 homers (if done fairly) is the new "lock" for a HoF hitter. All McGwire did was walk and hit the long ball, so I don't even think he'd get in if he did it completely fairly.

Rafael Palmeiro I can understand as he not only got 500+ homers, but 3000+ hits. His career was tainted though, and there's 0% chance he gets in.

If Bonds weren't on steroids, he'd get in, and same with A-Roid, but I don't think it's the case now. I don't care if it was ONLY 2001-2003. That's still three years of his career where it was tainted that he'll NEVER get back. He still cheated, and unless he can go back in time and prevent it from happening again, he's fucked. The thing is.. he got caught up in the McGwire/Sosa bullshit, and was really stupid, thinking that hitting 35+ homers a season wasn't good enough. If he had "regular" years for him in that three year span, he'd be about 50 homers or so behind his pace that he's at now. Is that really a big sacrifice to risk the entire body of work? I don't think so, but clearly he did.

He admitted to his mistake, unlike Clemens, Bonds, and Mac. That'll earn him brownie points 15 years from now when new writers are casting their votes.

[archibaldcrane]

If Bonds weren't on steroids, he'd get in

The thing is, if anyone is saying about anyone at all "well, if you just look at his clean years" Bonds is the #1 guy on the list. His numbers before he was first accused by anyone of steroid usage are sick.

Barry is accused of using steroids starting with the offseason after the Sosa-McGwire debacle of 1998. Looking at Barry's stats from '86 to '98 - the presumed clean years:

411 HRs and 445 Stolen Bases (making him the only 400-400 guy, the only 400-300 guy, and only one of two 300-400 guys, in MLB history, and that's while clean)

3 NL MVPs - tied for baseball's all-time lead for MVPs

8 Golden Gloves

8 All-star games

Even if you throw out the next 9 seasons of work, his stats are pretty legendary.

[Dimmauk]

The thing is, if anyone is saying about anyone at all "well, if you just look at his clean years" Bonds is the #1 guy on the list. His numbers before he was first accused by anyone of steroid usage are sick.

Barry is accused of using steroids starting with the offseason after the Sosa-McGwire debacle of 1998. Looking at Barry's stats from '86 to '98 - the presumed clean years:

411 HRs and 445 Stolen Bases (making him the only 400-400 guy, the only 400-300 guy, and only one of two 300-400 guys, in MLB history, and that's while clean)

3 NL MVPs - tied for baseball's all-time lead for MVPs

8 Golden Gloves

8 All-star games

Even if you throw out the next 9 seasons of work, his stats are pretty legendary.

Makes you wonder why he started using PEDs? Ego probably.

[archibaldcrane]

Makes you wonder why he started using PEDs? Ego probably.

Basically. He was QQing about roided up McGwire and Sosa stealing the spotlight from his rampage of a career. He sure showed those assholes.

[Cephius]

Good points but from what I remember, in the spots where A-Rod really could have made the difference, he always choked or completely killed the rally. One of the most poignant was the Game 4 of the Boston Red Sox- Yankees series where they were up 3-0 and could have swept the series; A-Rod was up with men on base, the score was still close, and he either struck out or grounded into a DP. That right there was the chance to put the Red Sox away and resume the great dynasty of the 90's. And we all know what happened.

Stats may mask the true problems.

The funny part is I remember the time you're talking about, and he actually lined out. If that dunks in he probably wins the series, goes on to be MVP and is never labeled a choker. So just because he doesn't get one hit in one situation, that is the difference between hero and choker? Doesn't make any sense.

(Sorry, this is a huge pet peeve of mine if you couldn't tell already)

You're completely ignoring the fact that Jeter gets timely hits. Plus him putting up the same numbers in the post season deserves more credit since you're only facing the top teams in the league and their 3 best pitchers. Not to mention that theres way more meaningful at bats in the post season compared to the regular season.

A-rod is viewed as a choker because he never gets the big hit when you need him to. Great players like Jeter and Manny make careers based off of their situational hitting and it's silly to ignore that.

Stats are a measure of performance. You can't just ignore them and say Jeter's hits in the postseason are "timely". Every hit in the postseason is timely. Look at those numbers I posted... there are some huge performances in there. In 2001 Jeter hit about .100 but because he got one game-winning hit he's a hero (even though they lost the series)? One at bat shouldn't decide someone's postseason worth, one way or another. For every example of A-rod "failing in the clutch" I can give you an example of him succeeding. People look at A-rod as a choker and Jeter as a hero, so one gets passes for failing and the other doesn't - which is why I choose to look at overall stats and splits to make my decision about a player.

I've derailed this enough, sorry!