Haubergeon+1 VS Osode for Sam

[Raen Ryong]

The more strongly buffed you are, the more Osode will pull ahead.

On situations like HNM where your pdif will still be fairly low in most cases even given the bonus, Byrnie +1 is a strong choice.

Haubergeon +1 is not a weak choice by any means, but it will not perform better than those two bodies in most situations.

[Thorny]

I'd stick to Haub. From my understanding, the difference in the damage is like 20-30 points per WS give or take a few but then you're putting back on the Haub for TP gains again... So unless you're filthy rich or getting one free, Haub is the "better" choice.

More or less accurate, besides the filthy rich part. If you have anything else you still need to buy for your jobs, it's most likely a better increase than osode for SAM though.

In terms of which will give the best damage, since that is what the thread is about:
For higher level HNM(JoL, CoP wyrms, kirin, cerb), you should be using a hauby+1 if your accuracy isn't capped or a Byrnie+1 if it is. For merits, limbus, dynamis, and other trash osode wins.

[Kaiyoko]

The more strongly buffed you are, the more Osode will pull ahead.

On situations like HNM where your pdif will still be fairly low in most cases even given the bonus, Byrnie +1 is a strong choice.

Haubergeon +1 is not a weak choice by any means, but it will not perform better than those two bodies in most situations.

The problem with using either of those on HNM I feel is that you'll miss enough that the damage increase is pointless if you can't consistently hit the mob.

[Thorny]

The problem with using either of those on HNM I feel is that you'll miss enough that the damage increase is pointless if you can't consistently hit the mob.

You can 'feel' all you want, your acc is still capped or close on most HNM. Test it for yourself, do 200 gekkos in a full STR setup on cerb or something your shell claims often, report back on hitrate. If it's below 92%, use your hauby+1, otherwise don't.

[Ultimagi]

The accuracy bonus is applied no matter what body piece you are wearing, you can't apply it in favour of 1 over the other. The Haubergeon +1 still has more accuracy, and is therefore better in any situation where your accuracy is not capped, as I already stated earlier.

[Raen Ryong]

If your accuracy is not capped or close to, I would agree with you. However, it seems from testing that your accuracy is always capped on the first hit of a WS unless you are under status effects like Flash (not sure if Blind reduces it also? Would make Hauby+1 a clear winner for Faf/Nid unless you have very willing mages if so).

[Wolfknight]

The accuracy bonus is applied no matter what body piece you are wearing, you can't apply it in favour of 1 over the other. The Haubergeon +1 still has more accuracy, and is therefore better in any situation where your accuracy is not capped, as I already stated earlier.

the acc bonus is generally large enough to make the acc on haub +1 meaningless unless you're being flashed or mob uses evasion up move, testing showed capped WSacc on byakko even so I don't see how HNM could be a problem, though I don't do them anymore so hard for me to say.

[Amastacia]

Osode for WS.

You'll be just as frustrated as ever about the clustering illusion's impact on your missed WSs, but you'll be doing more damage in the end.

Osode isn't the most cost-effective STR upgrade but it's not that far out of whack. I wouldn't rush to buy one if you don't already have one, but it's not ridiculous to upgrade given the price. Maybe 25% more expensive per point than going 4 -> 5 STR in a ring slot.

[Okan]

More or less accurate, besides the filthy rich part. If you have anything else you still need to buy for your jobs, it's most likely a better increase than osode for SAM though.

Just from my view of Osode's going from upper 2's to upper 3's/4's on my server (in millions) and Haub about 3.3m so that's about 6mil in armor assuming you buy both and don't get stupid lucky on HQ synth and get osode free from LS.

[Tsuko_Asura]

Ditto.

What aren't you grasping about generally having capped WSAcc? Saying, "you'll want to use Haubergeon +1 most of the time, Osode is only good when your WSAcc is capped" is extremely misleading to anyone jumping into the topic.

[Ultimagi]

I've duo'd with enough samurai to know that their Weapon Skill Accuracy is not capped.

[isladar]

Removed useless posts. If you can't reply to the thread without being a douchetard then refrain from responding.

[Raen Ryong]

Is that PARSED lower than 95% weaponskill accuracy over a large enough sample? It's very easy to think you are missing more than you are on Samurai, especially since the misses stand out the most and your WS frequency is so high.

[Ultimagi]

No, I play legitimately, no tools.
Edit: I see what you're saying though, the misses kind of stand out above the hits, especially when they're in streaks.

[Neosutra]

No, I play legitimately, no tools.

Calling people that use windower/parser illegitimate players/cheaters revokes any credibility you may have had.

[Klain]

The point is that eyeballing isn't as accurate as... well actual number results.

I'm tired of the "I DUN CHEET" posts, it's fucking annoying.

[Raineer]

I've duo'd with enough samurai to know that their Weapon Skill Accuracy is not capped.

My Samurai is terrible compared to most people's on this forum and mine parses 94%+

If you don't parse you really can't contribute (or gain anything) from the discussion. We've come a decent way since 2004.

edit: I want to clarify my point a bit, I'm not in the camp stating that a naked SAM will hit 95% each and every time on IT. However there is an undeniable accuracy boost during WS.

[Valyana]

However, it seems from testing that your accuracy is always capped on the first hit of a WS unless you are under status effects like Flash (not sure if Blind reduces it also? Would make Hauby+1 a clear winner for Faf/Nid unless you have very willing mages if so).

I once parsed Hurricane Wing to be acc-100 on Nyzul Faf (by editing the saved chat log and parsing the bits with and without wing separately). I'm pretty sure WS acc isn't capped during Wing, as I feel like I see a lot of missed Gekkos then.

[Amastacia]

No, I play legitimately, no tools.
Edit: I see what you're saying though, the misses kind of stand out above the hits, especially when they're in streaks.

Mentioned it above, but bears repeating.

Clustering illusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Randomness is significantly more random than people give it credit for.

Edit: I would suspect that for most people saying "My Acc isn't capped on WS" when playing SAM, they have vivid recollections of a few painful incidents where they got bitten in the ass (the 3-straight-missed-WS Salvage a few weeks ago for me, for instance), and no recollection at all of the other times when their WS Acc was even higher than it should be.

[Wulfgang]

Isladar; SHUTTIN YO SHIT DOWN since 2007.

Cool, my point was that if you actually read the What's Better thread you'd realize that it is rarely a "y/n" answer unless the question is retarded. Here's a good snippet from ~p. 81 on Osode vs. Haubergeon +1 so my post doesn't get deleted.

Since a debate started about these two in the Post your pic thread, I thought I'd do a few more test to try and come to a conclusion of the debate. I will do multiple test on various situation and post them here.

Test 1:

Test mob: Greater Colibri Lvl 82

Stats(taken from Wiki): Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67

Subject 1 (with Haubergeon +1): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 125 STR and 445 att (unbuffed, no food) using gorget so add +0.1 fTP
Subject 2 (with Kirin Osode): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 129 STR and 436 att (unbuffed, no food) using gorget so add +0.1 fTP

Subject 1:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 58
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 125 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 15.5
WSC = (125 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 77.8
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (445/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 1.01
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 0 ≤ cRatio < 1.25 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 0.712
Maximum pDIF = 1.212
WD = (75 + 15.5 + 77.8 ) x 1.975 = 332.39

Minimum damage possible = 332.39 x 0.712 = 236
Maximum damage possible = 332.39 x 1.212 = 402

Subject 2:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 62
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 129 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 16.5
WSC = (129 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 80.3
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (436/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 0.983
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 0 ≤ cRatio < 1.25 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 0.679
Maximum pDIF = 1.179
WD = (75 + 16.5 + 80.3) x 1.975 = 339.30

Minimum damage possible = 339.30 x 0.679 = 230
Maximum damage possible = 339.30 x 1.179 = 400

Test 1 conclusion is that unbuffed, Haubergeon +1 is better.

Test 2:

Part 1: No Berserk (40% of the time)

Test mob: Greater Colibri Lvl 82

Stats(taken from Wiki): Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67

Subject 1 (with Haubergeon +1): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 130 STR and 574.75 att using gorget so add +0.1 fTP.
Using Meat Mithkabob and has Minuet IV(Fully merited).

Subject 2 (with Kirion Osode): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 134 STR and 565.75 att using gorget so add +0.1 fTP
Using Meat Mithkabob and has Minuet IV(Fully merited).

Subject 1:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 63
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 130 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 16.75
WSC = (130 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 80.9
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (574.75/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 1.407
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 1.25 ≤ cRatio ≤ 1.5 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 1.407
Maximum pDIF = 1.688
WD = (75 + 16.75 + 80.9) x 1.975 = 340.98

Minimum damage possible = 340.98 x 1.407 = 479
Maximum damage possible = 340.98 x 1.688 = 575

Subject 2:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 67
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 134 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 17.75
WSC = (134 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 83.4
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (565.75/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 1.38
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 1.25 ≤ cRatio ≤ 1.5 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 1.380
Maximum pDIF = 1.656
WD = (75 + 17.75 + 83.4) x 1.975 = 347

Minimum damage possible = 347.89 x 1.380 = 480
Maximum damage possible = 347.89 x 1.656 = 576

Test 2 Part 1 conclusion is that while using typical buffs at Colibri camp, Osode has 1 more min and 1 more max possible.
Seeing that you only have 2.083 % chances of doing 1 more damage than Haubergeon +1, I think that the +9 acc of Haubergeon +1 still makes it win here.


Part 2: Berserk (60% of the time)

Test mob: Greater Colibri Lvl 82

Stats(taken from Wiki): Defense 327, Evasion 339, VIT 67, AGI 67

Subject 1 (with Haubergeon +1): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 130 STR and 718.75 att using gorget so add +0.1 fTP.
Using Meat Mithkabob and has Minuet IV(Fully merited).

Subject 2 (with Kirion Osode): Sam/war using Hagun @ 100% TP with 134 STR and 707.18 att using gorget so add +0.1 fTP
Using Meat Mithkabob and has Minuet IV(Fully merited).

Subject 1:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 63
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 130 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 16.75
WSC = (130 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 80.9
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (718.75/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 1.848
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 1.5 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 1.417
Maximum pDIF = 2.217
WD = (75 + 16.75 + 80.9) x 1.975 = 340.98

Minimum damage possible = 340.98 x 1.417 = 483
Maximum damage possible = 340.98 x 2.217 = 738

Subject 2:

Damage = WD * PDIF = (( D + fSTR + WSC) * fTP) * PDIF

D = 75
dSTR (for fSTR)= 67
fSTR (lower cap)= 8.3
fSTR (upper cap)= 32.4
fSTR with Hagun and 134 STR on Greater Colibri lvl 82= 17.75
WSC = (134 x 0.75) x 0.83 = 83.4
fTP = 1.975
Melee cRatio = (707.18/327) - 0.050 x 7 = 1.812
Ratio Range: 5/6 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Max and 1.5 < cRatio ≤ 2 for Min
Minimum pDIF = 1.374
Maximum pDIF = 2.174
WD = (75 + 17.75 + 83.4) x 1.975 = 347

Minimum damage possible = 347.89 x 1.374 = 478
Maximum damage possible = 347.89 x 2.174 = 756

Test 2 Part 2 conclusion is that while using typical buffs + Berserk at Colibri camp, Osode has 2 minimum less and 18 more maximum damage possible. So it means that you have 0.71% to attain that 2 minimum less and 7.03% to do between 1-18 damage more than the Haubergeon +1. Weither or not you think that low of a chance is worth it is up to you but in my opinion, the +9 acc from the Haubergeon +1 is better than a 7.03% chance to do low single/double digits damage from the Osode. And that's only during Berserk and seeing the 1st part of test 2, you'd need to have a Berserk WS macro and a non-berserk ws macro.