Haubergeon+1 VS Osode for Sam

[Midge]

Re; missed WSs

Correct me if I'm wrong but acc. cap is ~95%?

In other words there's a 1/20 chance to miss, which is something for the people that moan about YGK misses to consider when they take into account their WS frequency.

Another thing is that YGK are single hit so if the first hit misses you get the "XYZ misses the mob". Compare that to a DRK spamming guillotine (who also recieves the acc bonus on the first hit of their WS I believe) who will miss 1/20 of thier first hits has another 3 hits in which to deal some damage on their WS.

[amentis]

BlueGartr: The place where everyone has sand in their vagina.

Unless you can show me where I said they had to use what I use, and they have do what I do, you can back the fuck off. This is Standard, not Advanced. If I want to my voice my opinion, I'm entitled to do so.

But your opinion is mathematically proven to be the inferior choice. So, people are calling you out on that.

Also, that huge block-o-text that someone quoted me on is from Darkwill on KI, and was from before we assumed the ACC+ on Y/G/K (but that was noted already).

There's no reason not to use Osode on your WS.

[KSDI]

That is virtually impossible to test? Short of parsing a whole shitton of WSes, figuring out expected DA rate, manually counting DAs you see, then figuring out what .95 times the expected DA rate is and a reasonable margin of error in it. Of course, you need a much larger sample size than normal...

Ok, if we make the assumption, (for the sake of argument), that Double Attacks during ws are not capped in accuracy, and that for a sam/war the expected DA rate on ws would be somewhere around 15%, would it be worth considering keeping some acc on to help those DA's land at the expense of the dmg that 4 str would add?

If calculating whether or not the DA's are capped in acc is near impossible, and ~15% is a big enough number, have we really mathematically proven one piece to be mathematically inferior to the other? I mean if double attacks during ws are not that important should i take my brutal earring off during ws and add another str+2 in there?

[FailureMidgard]

Ok, if we make the assumption, (for the sake of argument), that Double Attacks during ws are not capped in accuracy, and that for a sam/war the expected DA rate on ws would be somewhere around 15%, would it be worth considering keeping some acc on to help those DA's land at the expense of the dmg that 4 str would add?

If calculating whether or not the DA's are capped in acc is near impossible, and ~15% is a big enough number, have we really mathematically proven one piece to be mathematically inferior to the other? I mean if double attacks during ws are not that important should i take my brutal earring off during ws and add another str+2 in there?

I misspoke about it being nearly impossible to test, it actually shouldn't be that hard, if you are sure to stack DA and lower accuracy as much as possible during WS.

As for the math, it depends on all of the following -
Is acc capped on the DA?
If no, what would the accuracy be?
Is attk capped on the DA?
If no, what would the pdif be?
Do WSC apply on the DA? I think this one is no...
Do fTP multipliers apply on the DA? I think this one is no also...
Does a gorget affect the DA?
Does Overwhelm apply to the DA?

[Valyana]

Do WSC apply on the DA? I think this one is no...

Yes.

Do fTP multipliers apply on the DA? I think this one is no also...

No.

Does a gorget affect the DA?

No.

Does Overwhelm apply to the DA?

I don't know, but I would expect yes.

[ringthree]

There are 2 outcome from RNG eating food in endgame:
1. I wish I could eat meat.
2. I wish I ate sushi.

You do get consistent hit rate on your slug or not. I've never seen anything in the middle.

OH MY GOD!!!!!! THIS IS ABSOLUTE TRUTH!!!!!

I cry myself to sleep every night because of this.

[Raen Ryong]

Ok, if we make the assumption, (for the sake of argument), that Double Attacks during ws are not capped in accuracy, and that for a sam/war the expected DA rate on ws would be somewhere around 15%, would it be worth considering keeping some acc on to help those DA's land at the expense of the dmg that 4 str would add?

If calculating whether or not the DA's are capped in acc is near impossible, and ~15% is a big enough number, have we really mathematically proven one piece to be mathematically inferior to the other? I mean if double attacks during ws are not that important should i take my brutal earring off during ws and add another str+2 in there?

I'm going to make some assumptions based on my observations with Guillotine and behaviour of WSs as a whole but;

The first hit of a WS is independent to all other hits. fTP, Gorget, Attack/accuracy bonuses apply here and not to subsequent hits. Certainly, on Guillotine, I RARELY if ever miss the first hit but I can miss others a lot more often comparatively suggesting to me that the first hit is at 95% or damn close to.

To make an educated guess at the other questions;

Is acc capped on the DA?

No.

If no, what would the accuracy be?

Expected.

Is attk capped on the DA?

No.

If no, what would the pdif be?

Expected.

Do WSC apply on the DA? I think this one is no...

Yes.

Do fTP multipliers apply on the DA? I think this one is no also...

fTP = 1.0.

Does a gorget affect the DA?

No.

Does Overwhelm apply to the DA?

If Overwhelm applies to all hits of a multihit WS, I have reason to believe it WOULD affect the DAs.

These are just estimates at best, but how I feel.

[FailureMidgard]

No offense, but random guesses aren't very useful.

I disagree with your guesses on a lot of things, if I had to guess.

First off, in Guillotine, it's 4 hits. There are 3 extra chances to miss a later hit than the first, and from my experiences with Penta-Thrust (actually parsed), I miss the first hit vs other hits exactly as expected.

Second, for Samurai, my DA hit on a WS is adding ~3 times a normal hit worth of damage. WSC alone doesn't account for that...WSC+Overwhelm maybe does, but it's cutting it very close. WSC + Overwhelm +pdif cap sounds a lot more reasonable, this is purely eyeballing though, so could be off.

Third, I'm leaning towards the DA being capped, but have no real concrete proof for this, other than it feels like my WS DA rate (based on TP return) is closer to 7% than the ~4% expected.

Edit: wasn't it proven/accepted that gorget accuracy applied to all hits?

[Tsuko_Asura]

I'd be inclined to think that gorgets would apply to DA on a WS, but considering DA tend to take on the shape of normal swings, there's room for reasonable doubt.

[FailureMidgard]

I'd be inclined to think that gorgets would apply to DA on a WS, but considering DA tend to take on the shape of normal swings, there's room for reasonable doubt.

the ftp part may not...if the accuracy applies to all 5 hits of penta, I'm not sure why it wouldn't apply to a DA, the extra swing is closer to an extra hit on penta than it is to a normal swing (1tp return).

[Raen Ryong]

Oh sorry, I meant the fTP part <_< I believe the accuracy does.

And yeah, it is just random educated guesses but it does seem to correlate with other weaponskills that the first hit of any given WS does seem to be different from the others (fTP itself confirms that there is a difference).

[S N K]

Honestly I'd stick with a Haub+1 for everything on SAM except for WS /THF but other then that, Haub+1 fulltime imo.

[Zhais]

Do people even read threads anymore?

[Tsuko_Asura]

Personally, I just adore the way "in my opinion" is used as a means of denying any responsibility for what people say. If I were to go around insisting that, in my opinion, it rains because somewhere out there, a group of people spend their time flying planes above us dumping buckets of water on our heads, you wouldn't nod your head and acknowledge my entitlement to having my own opinion. You'd call me a fucking idiot, and explain the water cycle.

[FailureMidgard]

Personally, I just adore the way "in my opinion" is used as a means of denying any responsibility for what people say. If I were to go around insisting that, in my opinion, it rains because somewhere out there, a group of people spend their time flying planes above us dumping buckets of water on our heads, you wouldn't nod your head and acknowledge my entitlement to having my own opinion. You'd call me a fucking idiot, and explain the water cycle.

I think I'd call you an idiot, and then not explain the water cycle, actually. Maybe just tell you to go read about it.

[Kimkytaru]

Edit: wasn't it proven/accepted that gorget accuracy applied to all hits?

Yes it was proven. I dont remember where but it was proven gorget works for Asuran fist too.

[Tsuko_Asura]

I think I'd call you an idiot, and then not explain the water cycle, actually. Maybe just tell you to go read about it.

You get the point Q_Q

[Zirk]

Question on the side here, what would you consider better for Tachi: Kaiten?

[Cream Soda]

Question on the side here, what would you consider better for Tachi: Kaiten?

Byrnie+1

[Elites]

^